Value Electronics 2015 Flat Panel Shootout at CE Week

[raygendreau]

while the shootout did not evaluate HDR performance, Samsung and Amazon HDR did not get a good review from Cnet:

" LG also promised an upgrade soon: "Amazon HDR streaming will be available on this year's LG OLED 4K ULTRA HD TVs in the coming weeks."

Update Monday July 13: I tested Amazon's HDR content as part of the review of the Samsung JS8500. It didn't look better, and often looked worse, than the same video in non-HDR on other TVs. It suffered from relatively washed out black levels without the punchy highlights I've seen on other HDR demos.

The issues have a lot to do, as far as I can tell, with the TV's own display technology and implementation of HDR. Higher-end TVs than the JS8500, including Samsung's models, might do the content more justice, but I haven't tested those yet. My early findings aren't an indictment of HDR in general or Amazon's HDR in particular--it's still very early days for HDR."

http://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-beat...ver-hdr-video/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Until those things happen, I consider any comments on LG OLEDS and their performance displaying HDR to be nothing more than speculation....

Well hell ray, that doesn’t bother me ‘cause you fail to even understand when I’m complimenting you

You just keep your purchasing promise with regards to the LG OLED and Robert and I will both be happy.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Too funny, literally about 2hr. after I made that ^ post, I’m alerted to listen to ~ 23 min. mark of yet another YouTube -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZWW...tu.be&t=23m20s

To which Scottie responds….”Yes, exactly” and moves on quickly to other things. I guess it’s nice to at least see my concern validated by the boys at SpectraCal.

And Joel …..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZWW...utu.be&t=4m20s

it may not be well understood on other forums/websites but color augmented by HDR is well understood on Blu-ray.com , or should be, as of about 2 weeks ago. But I do like how you guys think in regards to past pronouncements by *the video guru* Joe (K.)

When I get around to it, I’ve got to watch that ^ entire video to see if it’s Derek or Stacey who display the best

Poker Face - Lady Gaga - LYRICS!! - YouTube

‘cause I’d always play cards with Joel (heck, even with Dave Vaughn of http://www.soundandvision.com/writer/12760) but those other two from SpectraCal scare me a little.

[Penton-Man]

Sports drives TV watching. Hopefully UHD packages like with BT Sport - http://sport.bt.com/sport-football/n...11363991113985 will increase consumer awareness to 4K/UHD and ultimately aid retailers in selling more 4K TVs.

[Robert Zohn]

I've conceded to change my position on the EG9600 performing better than LCD/LED HDR TVs. I am now offically "Cautiously optimistic" that we will be enjoying the best HDR experience with the EG9600 series.

Ray's post where he linked to CNET's JS8500 HDR review along with the excellent videos you linked to above have pursuaded me to change my position.

Thanks for the excellent posts to on target big issues of HDR that we will need to sort out and have our HDR capable TVs ready to produce their best shot.

I'll be running HDR/WCG content across all of the top 4K HDR TVs on our store showroom's TV Shootout wall and we'll see who performs best out of the box and after proper calibration for HDR and WCG, (likely p3, DCI color).

Until then, like Penton says... the proof is in the pudding. And it won't be long now till we have all of the results. Viewing the dispays lined up
butt-to-butt in a controlled environment and all calibrated with all of the new specs.

BTW, my money is still on OLED for the best HDR and WCG performance, but all bets are now only available with a 2 point spread. jk

-Robert

[raygendreau]

The UHD Alliance must develop a standard that CE manufacturers and content providers will agree to. I would prefer not to see too many options.

"MESA: It seems like we’ve got Dolby Vision, Technicolor and others offering different standards. Are we looking at yet another format war, or is there room for everyone in the ecosystem?

Lukk: So when it comes to a broadcast world and consumer physical distribution (such as Blu-ray) there are many more steps in the process such as compression, possible encryption, transmission, network distribution, physical distribution and home interfaces of which SMPTE does not standardize. When you add the complication of supporting a dual-system (SDR and HDR) this is where manufacturers and vendors split. This is always natural when you look at the patent implications for the consumer world vs. the professional world. At latest count we have four proponents in this arena: Technicolor, Samsung, Phillips and Dolby."

http://mesalliance.org/blog/me-daily...ormat-war-yet/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

When I get around to it, I’ve got to watch that entire video....

I did this afternoon because we had a lot of rain hereabouts today which cut my riding time significantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZWW...tu.be&t=32m45s

Stacey (from SpectraCal), yes….true, re-mastering of previously shot movies for HDR is being done now. But, for the best quality HDR, you want to have had everything in 16-bit…. 16-bit RAW capture with your digital camera, high quality (floating point) color processing with a 16-bit openEXR workflow (which will retain as much dynamic range as was in the original capture) and then re-grading in HDR from the original 16-bit P3 theatrical master renders which are rendered out in PQ ((ST 2084) BT. 2020.

Is everyone doing that?.....and, over the course of time, will some content providers succumb to the temptation of using inferior sources in order to blow out an HDR title….to make some easy money? Sure, anyone can make HDR versions of 10 or 12-bit content look better than the original SDR version, but if one uses a 16-bit source, one will get significantly better results. One studio has already proven this with their internal testing.

P.S.
Got a call it a win for Derek on the poker face thing (I plan never on playing cards with that guy ), as it looks to me like Stacey cracks a wee bit of a smile at the end….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZWW...u.be&t=1h4m40s

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

BTW, my money is still on OLED for the best HDR and WCG performance, but all bets are now only available with a 2 point spread. jk

Hey, as long as I stay on your good side…because if that pans out, I’m hoping to someday purchase a reasonably priced BIG 4K oled from you (before you retire)…that is, if I can get a good price on one.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Phillips

The Phillips HDR proposal seems to get no love on the internets….probably because no journalist knows a damn thing about it. I’ll tell you that it’s most optimal for a constant luminance system.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I'll be running HDR/WCG content across all of the top 4K HDR TVs on our store showroom's TV Shootout wall and we'll see who performs best out of the box and after proper calibration for HDR and WCG, (likely p3, DCI color).


-Robert

Have you streamed Amazon HDR to the shootout Samsung, or viewed the M-Go HDR downloads on it? I have read that the M-go UHD HDR files are 100 GB. I assume you can stream Amazon HDR via the Sony FMP-X10; or the Samsung Amazon app.

[Robert Zohn]

We're setting up a few Samsung HDR ready TVs. HDR models JS9500 down to the JS7000 series 4K displays that are HDR/WCG ready TVs are in our line-up. No other brands will support HDR at this moment.

The good news is that for all brands of TVs we're expecting the HDR decoders to be downloaded as firmware updates sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving 2015 along with open content from the three major 4K media providers,.. Amazon Instant Video, M-Go and Netflix 4K and then by the beginning of 2016 we'll all be enjoying 4K HDR/WCG Blu-ray titles.

So I'm planning two HDR/WCG comparisons; the first one will be with models available today, Samsung's JS9500, JS9000, JS8600, JS850, JS7500 and the JS7000 series of HDR/WCG 2015 4K TV series.

The second one will only feature; LG's 65EG9600, Panasonic's LC-65CX850U, Samsung's UN78JS7800 and Sony's XBR-75X940C.

Now back to how we're transforming our Showroom wall to demonstrate the various series of HDR 4K TVs. These tvs are available to purchase now and you can begin downloading and watching real 4K with P3, DCI color and a greatly improved High Dynamic Range of contrast with brilliant specular highlights that don't blow out the detail in the high illuminant areas due to the 10 bit 1024 shades of grey and all colors.

Setting up an HDR wall is fun and is good practice for us so we're ready to begin the high-end evaluation the day we have HDR from whichever content provider comes first to all TVs.

Coincidentally, or not, I'm so happy that the 4 TVs that will be in the final HDR/WCG 10bit panel contestants for comparison will be the exact line-up that we presented at our June 25, 2015 TV Shootout.

I'm realistically shooting for end of August for our first JS9500 - JS7000 HDR evaluation we'll also include in the 4K SDR/rec. 709 2015 TV Shootout models, Sony's X940C, LG's 65EG9600 OLED and Panasonic's 65CX850U, so 5 to 6 4K TVs in the end of August 4K HDR evaluation. Our final critical evaluation (Q3 2015) will only include the 4 original 2015 TV Shootout contestants.

-Robert

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I'm realistically shooting for end of August for our first JS9500 - JS7000 HDR evaluation we'll also include in the 4K SDR/rec. .
-Robert

I find the JS7000 models a bit odd, they have nano crystal technology (SUHD), yet are similar to the low end JU6500 models using a semi-gloss screen (IPS panel) so contrast ratio is a lot worse then say a JS7100 that is not a SUHD display. Look forward to your evaluation.

Also not a HDR model, that would be 8500 -> 9500

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

...The good news is that for all brands of TVs we're expecting the HDR decoders to be downloaded as firmware updates sometime between Halloween and Thanksgiving 2015 along with open content from the three major 4K media providers,.. Amazon Instant Video, M-Go and Netflix 4K and then by the beginning of 2016 we'll all be enjoying 4K HDR/WCG Blu-ray titles.

I’m just wondering with radio shows like Home Theater Geeks and the blogging AV internet in general, if interest in talking about Ultra HD Blu-ray in a positive (promoting) fashion will slowly fade away once OTT (streaming) HDR content becomes more available.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

SMPTE

is working on a single master and multiple targets for video files. These systems will require color metadata for color transfers on a per frame basis. The task is in determining how to embed these data into the video frame information, as the transforms can be put into effect at the display with the metadata.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I'm realistically shooting for end of August for our first JS9500 - JS7000 HDR evaluation we'll also include in the 4K SDR/rec. 709 2015 TV Shootout models, Sony's X940C, LG's 65EG9600 OLED and Panasonic's 65CX850U, so 5 to 6 4K TVs in the end of August 4K HDR evaluation. Our final critical evaluation (Q3 2015) will only include the 4 original 2015 TV Shootout contestants.

Plan on writing it up here?

[Robert Zohn]

Yes ^^ and I hope to have a few members join me for the evaluation.

-Robert

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Yes ^^ and I hope to have a few members join me for the evaluation.

-Robert

Calling Zoet? But if no members are able to attend…..not to worry, an original Case Study describing the materials, methods and results would still be appreciated.

[JimShaw]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Calling Zoet? But if no members are able to attend…..not to worry, an original Case Study describing the materials, methods and results would still be appreciated.

I bet Ken Ross will be there. Possibly, if Kevin Miller and David are in the neighborhood, they will be and if I lived a little closer, I definitely would be

Bottom line is: Robert will not be alone.



JimShaw

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JimShaw

I bet Ken Ross will be there. Possibly, if Kevin Miller and David are in the neighborhood, they will be and if I lived a little closer, I definitely would be

Bottom line is: Robert will not be alone.

JimShaw

Ken R., thee 'ol Blu-ray (format) supporter and 4K advocate? I remember him.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Calling Zoet? But if no members are able to attend…..not to worry, an original Case Study describing the materials, methods and results would still be appreciated.

If Robert would like me there, I'll certainly attend.