The Anime Blu-ray Video Quality Thread

[svenge]

Just a reminder to UK/AU readers: The region-free Japanese release of "Your Name" has English subs and won't give you eye cancer...

[professorwho]

mp3dom, how is the Dynit “Kimi no na wa” (or “your name”) BD gonna turn out? (If you can say, that is...) I know it’s gonna be better than Madman’s disc, but equal to or better than JP? I may end up getting that and getting subs from someone depending on results.

[Naiera]

Bro, the JP release isn’t THAT expensive. Why bother?

[professorwho]

You’re right- it’s just a curiosity, really.

[Sylontack]

Originally Posted by SnowWarren

But Anime Limited had to pay to reauthor the discs themselves and issue free replacements.

Siren also said they'd organise replacement discs for the AUS customers but have since changed hands and their new staff seem to be very much unaware of this... I replaced my AoA sets with the AUS sets once I heard they were replacing

[mp3dom]

Originally Posted by professorwho

mp3dom, how is the Dynit “Kimi no na wa” (or “your name”) BD gonna turn out?

Perfectly on par, and at the original framerate (24fps)

[Fendergopher]

I'm kinda curious what exactly separates the different regional releases quality-wise and why we fairly often end up seeing quite different results between releases that ostensibly should all come from the same source, i.e. the japanese audio & video source material. It's more or less clear when it comes to say, AoA, seeing as they just use the same masters as their japanese counterparts, however it does seem somewhat odd to me the sometimes stark differences between for example UK/AU/US releases of the same series or movie. Granted I have no real experience whatsoever in this field and thus can only speculate from an outsider's perspective.

What separates the finished product of a UK or US release from say a Dynit or Dybex release of the same material? Of course in at least one example that comes to mind (Gurren Lagann) the Dynit release seemingly looked identical video-wise to the AoA release (as far as I could tell), whereas the UK release did not. Does this come down to the material provided to the publishers? Or is it something like expertise, workflow, equipment, time restraints, small profit-margins, or simply cost-efficiency? I'd personally think it's some combination of all of these factors, although it does still seem odd to me that given the overall niche market that is home-video releases of anime there seems to be a lot of room for individual publishers to stand above the rest in certain aspects like VQ.

I don't mean to drop names or try to point fingers of course, as it's not productive to the larger conversation, but how come in the cases of, for example, Gurren Lagann and Cowboy Bebop, the Dynit and Dybex releases respectively seemed to have gotten it right when it came to VQ compared to other offers? Did they simply invest more time into those projects? Do they have a better workflow? More expertise or experience among their staff? Their company philosophy? Their consumer base's demands? What sets these releases apart and ultimately end up giving consumers a quite different experience solely based on the region the individual releases are catering to?

I of course give all companies like MangaUK, AL, AoA, Funi, Kaze, Animatsu, Dybex, Dynit etc. the benefit of the doubt, that they all want to provide a good product to their customers and can only imagine the amount of work that goes into simply getting a licensed anime blu-ray set listed for sale outside Japan at all. I still think it's important that a healthy discourse can be had regarding the intricacies that make any given release end up different from the other, especially if it's around the same title. The more common ground can be found the more productive any given discussion is going to be in the end, I think.

So sorry for the long-winded ramble, just felt I needed to express some nuance with regards to what I'm bringing up here. Appreciate anyone willing to chiming in their own viewpoints or experiences!

[Mangaranga]

The screenshotcomparison going around is one of mine, so I figured I'd chime in quickly with a few thoughts.

First of all, here's the other comparison pictures which were taken before that other one. The video is, sadly, far from what I thought the worse case scenario would be when I heard Madman were handling the authoring. The gamma is wrong, there's a lot of blocking, compression artifacts and a hell of a lot of visual noise going on in the encode. I'm pretty sure it's not a problem with the master Madman were working from as there's no consistency between the issues in the BD and DVD. (e.g. BD1 vs DVD1 and BD2 vs DVD2. Gamma is correct, some parts of scenes appear to show more quality loss on the BD and the DVD has a lot less visual noise.)

The audio is another cause for concern too from my experience. I don't have a surround system so I'm just working with a 2.1 system and my Sennheiser HD 650s, but having compared the JP w/EN and JP w/JP audio tracks from the Japanese BD to all three audio tracks on Madman's BD, something seems to have gone wrong in the process. It doesn't sound right to me at all, and in my opinion all three audio tracks on the BD also sound different to one another. I found the problem to be most noticeable when music is playing back, especially the Radwimps songs which feel low quality. The default dub track seems to be the most off.

I'll definitely be interested to hear other peoples opinions if/when other people get the release.

[NLScavenger]

Originally Posted by Mangaranga

The audio is another cause for concern too from my experience. I don't have a surround system so I'm just working with a 2.1 system and my Sennheiser HD 650s, but having compared the JP w/EN and JP w/JP audio tracks from the Japanese BD to all three audio tracks on Madman's BD, something seems to have gone wrong in the process. It doesn't sound right to me at all, and in my opinion all three audio tracks on the BD also sound different to one another. I found the problem to be most noticeable when music is playing back, especially the Radwimps songs which feel low quality. The default dub track seems to be the most off.

On the Hong Kong Blu-ray, the JP w/EN music has less bass than JP w/JP. Maybe a similar problem on the Madman BD?

[Fendergopher]

First of all, here's the other comparison pictures which were taken before that other one.

That does indeed look very poor VQ-wise. The gamma is consistently too bright and makes scenes look blown out. That in addition to the compression means you not only lose line detail (guy's pants on 3rd image & tatami mats lower left 1st image) but the detail in the enviroments start looking pretty abysmal (dark area underneath floorboards on 2nd image). The contrast between darker and brighter areas also is negatively affected overall, ruining the mood and atmosphere the lighting was intended to bring to any given scene.

Not sure how those caps compare to the earlier one on the scooter, but it wouldn't surprise me if it looks the same.

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

What separates the finished product of a UK or US release from say a Dynit or Dybex release of the same material?

I'd say probably 90% of it is just having people who know and care about the stuff.

Your Name is what happens when you have compressionists/authoring houses who don't know what their doing or don't care (or they would have noticed what they delivered didn't look/sound the same as the materials they got), production people at the anime companies who can't tell the difference or don't care (or they would have rejected the results or at the very least found someone better to work with the next time), and finally customers who can't tell the difference or don't care (anime fans in general have never been particularly picky regarding the technical side of things, although it's hardly a problem unique to this category).

That unfortunately just leaves a bunch of pixel-peeping nutcases on forums like this who don't matter enough, and in the end it's largely up to luck if the stuff we're interested in gets handled by mp3doms or David Ms.

[Fendergopher]

I'd say probably 90% of it is just having people who know and care about the stuff.

Right, so the compromises commonly seen in picture quality most likely come down to publishers having to balance time-investment and tight profit-margins, as well as not being willing and/or not having the resources to spare no expense in releasing the best product they possibly can. This is probably only exacerbated by highly competitive pricing for most anime releases in both the US and UK which most likely leads to having to cut corners at some point in the production pipeline to get the product to vendors in a mostly timely manner.

As an aside, I would personally not mind if most anime home video releases increased in price by say 10% (purely hypothetical number) if it would increase the time and resources that go into any given release on all fronts, i.e. video, audio, packaging, extras etc. Entirely possible it wouldn't help the issue at all, but it could try to pull some customers back from importing japanese releases due to products not being up to their personal standards. I do find it kind of odd that AoA are doing as well as they are in the US when many people claim it wouldn't work in other markets simply because it's a niche within a niche. Although maybe not a fair example as I don't know how much of an advantage AoA have with regards to accessing content from Japan, them being a subsidiary of AoJ and such. Still I do find the discrepancy between markets at times odd, but that's beyond the scope of power of any given publisher I guess.

Feel free to tell me if I'm making any sense or not btw, just throwing ideas out there really.

[NLScavenger]

BDInfo of the Hong Kong 'A Silent Voice' standard edition:

DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     A_SILENT_VOICE
Disc Size:      24,198,290,963 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No
BDInfo:         0.5.8

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00001.MPLS
Length:                 2:09:45.778 (h:m:s.ms)
Size:                   23,873,697,792 bytes
Total Bitrate:          24.53 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description
-----                   -------             -----------
MPEG-4 AVC Video        18371 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec      Language        Bitrate         Description
-----      --------        -------         -----------
DTS-HD Master Audio             Japanese        3671 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 3671 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio             Japanese        640 kbps        5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio             Chinese         384 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 384 kbps

SUBTITLES:

Codec      Language        Bitrate         Description
-----      --------        -------         -----------
Presentation Graphics           Chinese         26.264 kbps
Presentation Graphics           English         32.034 kbps

Couldn't find the BDInfo of the Hong Kong Collector's Edition which is on a BD50.

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

Right, so the compromises commonly seen in picture quality most likely come down to publishers having to balance time-investment and tight profit-margins, as well as not being willing and/or not having the resources to spare no expense in releasing the best product they possibly can.

Well that's the obvious thing, throw enough money at a problem and you'll eventually get something better, but there are underlying things like taking some pride in your work to attain a basic acceptable standard. I don't know that it'd always be outright more expensive to employ people like that, could just as well be luck that one has the proper know-how and tools while someone else only thinks they have.

Take for example the gamma shift, that's not something where additional time and money would or should produce better quality. That's a clear, systematic fault that shouldn't even be there in the first place and only happens because the people responsible either don't know that it happens (i.e. they don't know their stuff) or they don't care.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay for results like that, but with deadlines it might fall to the label to either release as is, or do a costly delay because it would take too long to redo, even if they somehow managed to convince those responsible to fix it. Though I kind of doubt anyone on the label end protested anyway for the reasons I mentioned previously, it seems it's always up to the forum posters to discover all these problems and bugs and broken releases. Just an unfortunate state all around.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by NLScavenger

BDInfo of the Hong Kong 'A Silent Voice' standard edition; couldn't find the BDInfo of the Hong Kong Collector's Edition which is on a BD50.

Looks like a disappointing encode from Neofilms, much like their version of Evangelion 2.22 which they also slapped on a BD25 for no good reason. Then again "A Silent Voice" isn't nearly as action-packed as a mecha anime, so perhaps the lower bitrate won't lead to the blocking problems that Evangelion 2.22 ended up with.

Anyhow, here's the Japanese BDInfo scan for "A Silent Voice". The audio tracks are as follows:

Film audio:

• LPCM 5.1 @ 24-bit
• DTS-HD MA 2.0 @ 16-bit
• DTS Headphone:X 2.0 @ 24-bit

Commentary track: DTS-HD MA 2.0 @ 16-bit
"Inner Silence" bonus audio track: LPCM 5.1 @ 24-bit

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00000.MPLS
Length:                 2:10:03.796 (h:m:s.ms)
Size:                   45,913,595,904 bytes
Total Bitrate:          47.07 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                    Bitrate             Description   
-----                    -------             -----------   
MPEG-4 AVC Video         26911 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec                    Language      Bitrate         Description   
-----                    --------      -------         -----------   
DTS-HD Master Audio      Japanese      1562 kbps       2.0 / 48 kHz / 1562 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 256 kbps / 24-bit)
LPCM Audio               Japanese      6912 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 6912 kbps / 24-bit
DTS-HD Master Audio      Japanese      835 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 835 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 256 kbps / 16-bit)
LPCM Audio               Japanese      6912 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 6912 kbps / 24-bit
DTS-HD Master Audio      Japanese      875 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 875 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 256 kbps / 16-bit)

SUBTITLES:

Codec                    Language      Bitrate         Description   
-----                    --------      -------         -----------   
Presentation Graphics    Japanese      50.770 kbps

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

I'm kinda curious what exactly separates the different regional releases quality-wise and why we fairly often end up seeing quite different results between releases that ostensibly should all come from the same source, i.e. the japanese audio & video source material.

Some people (mp3dom, Japanese encoders) know how to do their jobs; other people don't. It's that simple, in the end.

[Fendergopher]

Take for example the gamma shift, that's not something where additional time and money would or should produce better quality. That's a clear, systematic fault that shouldn't even be there in the first place and only happens because the people responsible either don't know that it happens (i.e. they don't know their stuff) or they don't care.

That is indeed a big issue that seems to be based in lack of experience or just a highly lacking workflow. I do also remember Justin Sevakis proposing that many of the gamma issues come down to the equipment used as well as wrong encoding settings, which result in gamma shifting. In the end though this really doesn't seem like something that should just be left to continue as it is, with many release's inherent flaws being exacerbated because of wrong gamma settings, as well as just simply looking wrong compared to japanese releases.

I'm not exactly versed in corporate politics, but I would suspect that a fair amount of these issues come down to the higher-ups not caring or taking the issue seriously and thus the people down the line either have their hands tied, or the same mentality spreads to them as well. If your boss doesn't take the quality of your product very seriously, why should you? Again I don't know, but unless we get someone from the inside speaking out about the situation in-depth it can be hard to make any objective statements.

Some people (mp3dom, Japanese encoders) know how to do their jobs; other people don't. It's that simple, in the end.

That may very likely be the case, and it would help to explain how relatively small publishers like Dybex and Dynit can do some things very right compared to larger companies like Funi or MangaUK for example. That being said if that really is the core of the issue then I don't think things look hopeful in the future.

On a side note I did get the impression that the Anime Limited Kill la Kill releases were fairly well done video quality-wise, and looked like a nice series for the price. Were those discs authored by AL with Aniplex source material? Or was it something else?

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

That may very likely be the case, and it would help to explain how relatively small publishers like Dybex and Dynit can do some things very right compared to larger companies like Funi or MangaUK for example.

It is the case.

[Fendergopher]

It is the case.

I'm inclined to agree, if only because it makes the most sense. At least threads like these allow consumers to make more informed purchasing decisions than simply going in blind and hoping for the best. In any case, it seems any improvements need to come organically from the inside of the business, and no amount of voicing our despair will result in anything tangible. Thus why people vote with their wallets, and good on those who do.

[Mangaranga]

Seeing as we had Your Name the other day, I've had a quick flick through the UK release of A Silent Voice and... it's basically identical to the Japanese BD. There's a fair bit of visual noise and banding throughout the film, but that appears to be baked into the master.
This is probably a good example as any. The disc was authored by Justin so it's not really surprising that it turned out so well.

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00000.MPLS
Length:                 2:09:42.816 (h:m:s.ms)
Size:                   36,915,766,656 bytes
Total Bitrate:          37.95 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-4 AVC Video        24908 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         3672 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 3672 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
LPCM Audio                      English         1536 kbps       2.0 / 48 kHz / 1536 kbps / 16-bit
DTS-HD Master Audio             Japanese        3672 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 3672 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
LPCM Audio                      Japanese        1536 kbps       2.0 / 48 kHz / 1536 kbps / 16-bit

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         21.429 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           English         1.424 kbps                      
Presentation Graphics           English         22.525 kbps