The Anime Blu-ray Video Quality Thread

[Naiera]

Justin should get a shot at making a better KareKano for Nozomi to release. I already think that the BD is easily the better looking release, but I'm sure he could work some magic on it.

[professorwho]

Originally Posted by Naiera

Justin should get a shot at making a better KareKano for Nozomi to release. I already think that the BD is easily the better looking release, but I'm sure he could work some magic on it.

Well, it depends on what they give him. Chances are it'll be the exact thing Q-Tec encoded for the King Records JP BD. If not, then there can be the possibility of a better BD.

Plus, he'd be able to handle the subtitle insanity that is Kare Kano.

[Naiera]

It could probably use some of that fake grain they added to that Galaxy Railways thing.

[professorwho]

I'll whip up a crude example in Adobe premiere using the YouTube trailer of it. (If I'm sent an episode by a certain someone, I can try to re-grain it)

[professorwho]

...yeah, forget it. Didn't work too well.

That said, I did use some random website and their grain plugin thing and it looks really nice on the still I tested it on. But, it didn't export in full resolution, so take this with a grain of salt (pun intended);

[Show spoiler]

So, I have a feeling that if a subtle grain overlay was applied it would add some texture to the image, and help to hide the smearing- though only to a small degree. As Kare Kano is 16mm, you can't go too subtle or intense with grain levels, and remember- it's an upscale we're dealing with- so unless someone adjusts it frame by frame for all 26 episodes, it will look poor.

So, as I have said before, Kare Kano in particular is f**ked because Gainax did some dumb sh*t in the 90s.

[BigOnAnime]

Originally Posted by slerch666

Since it was asked for by a few, I just spent the last bit putting together a comparison of Kareshi Kanojou no Jijou JP BD vs US DVD.

Yeesh, this reminds me exactly of when hissatsu compared Bandai's dot-crawl filled Blue Submarine No. 6 DVDs (which were vastly inferior to the JP DVDs, Discotek used those masters on their own DVD release) to the smeared into oblivion JP BDs upscaled by Q-TEC.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...6#post12568516

It also reminds me a bit of the Synch-Point FLCL DVDs vs. the JP/FUNi BDs (if only the Mania thread wasn't lost), though that wasn't nearly as big of a pick your poison situation.

If only this got a more normal upscale even though it'd still look bad. I really hate these upscales that smear line art (Disney and Q-TEC, make it stop), they just never look good. About the only exception was Haruhi S1, that was one of Q-TEC's "better" upscales.

[professorwho]

Originally Posted by BigOnAnime

About the only exception was Haruhi S1, that was one of Q-TEC's "better" upscales.

This is one of their better ones.

Objectively, I see little reason to go back to the terribly compressed Nozomi DVDs over this. Yes, it's Q-Tec smearing, but I hate compression artifacts up the wazoo quite a lot. Really, some fake grain to attempt to hide the smearing, ala the aforementioned Discotek Galaxy Express 999 films, would go a long way.

I hate Q-Tec as much as anyone else here, but the Nozomi DVDs look really bad.

[slerch666]

Stupid question.

Anyone make a plugin for media players that could fake grain? I realize it's not as good as tuning it to the content but could be a cheaters way to fix some of the discs if no one does for the encode.

MadVR in JRiver does some really good on the fly fixes for things like dot crawl, etc when you really start digging. It definitely is not perfect but can make some older only-on-DVD stuff more watchable.

[slerch666]

Originally Posted by professorwho

Objectively, I see little reason to go back to the terribly compressed Nozomi DVDs over this.

but the Nozomi DVDs look really bad.

I don't know.

The only compression issues I really saw were in the dual angle opening animation (which was STILL better than the turds FUNi put out the same way). Granted I only watched through the 1/2 of the first episode and a bit into the second half.

I found the dot crawl more annoying than anything else on the disc. But looking at some of the text on the BD, with the smeared edges to eliminate the dot crawl looks maybe... 1/2 as bad?

IMO it is more a matter of pick your poison.

[professorwho]

Well, maybe I’m wrong in calling it compression artifacts, but it appears there’s a lot of blocking. Granted, I’m not familiar with DVD encoding, but it looks like it.

That said, I’m not sure how much better or worse the JP DVDs are or the Laserdiscs. The JP DVDs aren’t cheap yet, so it would only cost around $20 more to get the Blu-ray, and the Laserdiscs are a similar price.

[slerch666]

Originally Posted by professorwho

Well, maybe I’m wrong in calling it compression artifacts, but it appears there’s a lot of blocking. Granted, I’m not familiar with DVD encoding, but it looks like it.

That said, I’m not sure how much better or worse the JP DVDs are or the Laserdiscs. The JP DVDs aren’t cheap yet, so it would only cost around $20 more to get the Blu-ray, and the Laserdiscs are a similar price.

Pick your poison.

LDs aren't worth it. Bitrot is a scary proposition for any format, even worse for LDs.

The DVDs being roughly the same price as the BDs, well, if they are authored better than the US ones (likely since they didn't do dual angle that limits total angle mbps heavily) that means it's better than the US DVDs which means... it's still not looking amazing given all the other limitations.

I own both now... and despite liking the grainier look of the DVD, well, I have it on BD... so likely I won't got back to DVD, except maybe to get some of the text I can't read translated. No way am I ripping subtitles from the DVDs to try to mux onto the BD for that!

[professorwho]

Just wait. I'm sure some dedicated fan will re-time and style subs to the JP BD within a month or so.

[slerch666]

That fan... will NOT be me. lol

[professorwho]

Originally Posted by slerch666

That fan... will NOT be me. lol

Well, Eva was re-timed within a month of its JP BD, so I'd expect Kare Kano to be similar.

Upon looking at the first episode (thanks, by the way), it looks great in motion. When properly de-interlaced the quality is superb. Having seen it in motion, I cannot go back to the DVDs. Other than frame wobble, it's very nice. I hope if Rightstuf does their own release here, they get Justin to do a similar grain application, as it looks more natural, and helps soften the sharpened image. It doesn't hide the fact it's an upscale, but it adds a texture that I think is missing.

[slerch666]

Here's an interesting fact about Devilman Lady.

The opening on the first episode, the one I captured, clearly came from a composite source, dot crawl and all.

But all episodes after use one that is from a component source.

My first inclination was that there was something that was different between the first episode, maybe a screen that was added or removed or a name changed. I went through the first episode opening and did a frame by frame comparison between the 2 sequences with subsequent openings.

There are NO differences. At all. Other than the source used. Is this their way of saying "look how much better the remastered version is?" I can't think of any other reason why they would have done this.

Now the ending, that is a different story.

The composite version ending is different than the component one. The composite starts with Jun looking up, then cuts to a black silhouette of Jun in the center of a red back ground and you watch her transform in silhouette as her hair blows around and morphs into Devilman Lady.

The component ending starts with the same looking up movement but when it goes to the silhouette version it starts with a partial bit of hair blowing off to the left, as Jun slides in from the left to right, eventually stopping centered (like the composite opening) until eventually the same transformation occurs.

This is the kind of cool stuff I am glad they include in releases like this, even if they didn't remaster this particular ending for the original ending sequence.

[professorwho]

Originally Posted by BusterD

The compression artifacts are definitely noticeable to me. The 16mm grain is nothing but a mess of block noise and there's also a slight bit of mosquito noise around outlines as well as some occasional heavier block noise depending on how much onscreen motion there is, or when there's a scene change. But at least my Oppo didn't have any noticeable problems converting from 1080i to 1080p, and the video detail looks good overall and is definitely preferable to an upscale.

The black levels seem poor and look rather grey, but not sure if this was due to the film remastering or the Blu-ray authoring. The audio also seems poor, at least in the first few episodes (which is all I watched so far) and has a bunch of analog pops and hiss like a record or cassette, so I'm assuming that it was taken from the 16mm film's optical track rather than proper audio masters. I assume the R2 DVDs or Laserdiscs sound much better, since I've never heard an official anime release sounding like this.

Definitely wouldn't recommend this release to anyone unless they don't mind paying JP prices and can't wait to see Devilman Lady in HD. Hopefully Discotek or someone will do a better job sometime in the future.

Source

I took a look at the episode I was sent and I've got a few things to say as well.

I measured the aspect ratio, and it's 1.37:1 instead of 1.33:1, but I doubt anyone will care, as the difference is very minor and unless compared side by side it won't bother anyone- plus because it's slightly wider, the image takes up more space on the TV.

Also, the audio is pretty bad. Only the OP and ED use high quality masters and sound as good as you'd hope, but the meat of the episode sounds like the just digitized the optical audio off of the 16mm film stock with zero adjustments. It's like what DBZ's Japanese audio sounds like. (I think that's a good comparison)

As for the image... Yeah, Buster's kinda right. Daytime scenes aren't too bad, though the grain isn't well resolved like he said, and the dirt hasn't been dealt with, so it sometimes flickers for a few frames here and there. It's not terrible, but it's meh. If it looked like this, then I'd give it like a 6/10.

But then there's the dark scenes, and oh boy are there problems. There's actual banding, but that's the least to be concerned about. The black levels are poor, to the point where I can't tell what's happening half the time, and the grain has been reduced to macroblocking that's arguably worse than FUNi's Bebop movie release.

If you view from a good distance away, it should look at least acceptable, ignoring the black levels, but when viewed up close, it's mediocre.


I think one of the big problems is due to the bitrate. Now, a good compressionist can make a good image at a low bitrate, but there's a limit to what's acceptable. Now, if I had to guess, that would be around 15 mbps or so. And Devilman Lady is 1/2 that. Now, I'm glad there's some spikes, but I wish the compressionist did more so as to better utilize the space given.

When I complain about bitrate, I generally do so when the disc space isn't being fully utilized, and while I have no clue how much is being used here, 7 mbps for 16mm film is too low. Digital material compresses easier, especially stuff with less detail and movement, but 16mm film is the total opposite, and here 2 BD-25s is too little space. Honestly, I think with a higher bitrate, some of these problems could have been solved, but some (like the black levels) are most likely in the source.

[slerch666]

Nice to have better trained eyes on it!

For me, I'm happier with this because it's definitely better than the R1 DVDs. I wish it had been given the royal treatment. It's amazing they did anything for it as I don't think the market for it is all that large. Doesn't forgive cramming this much on 2 BD25s though. I also don't think the price was justified, but it's Devilman Lady and I'd do it again.

I believe the audio is pretty much the same as what's on the DVDs. Only difference being it is LPCM. I don't have the R2s to compare though so this is the R1 set. Audio is better during the episodes than it is in the previews if you happened to listen that far.

It's also possible they didn't keep the audio masters originally but that's just me speculating why they wouldn't do it 'right.'

I definitely hope Discotek nabs this one and gives it 2 BD50s. Or at least a BD50 and. 25. Hopefully they don't deliver just the compressed materials... With the way they seemingly want to save as much money on this as possible, guess I wouldn't be amazed if they only kept the compressed final product... That's be being a pessimist and hopefully not the way they operate...

I'm not sure I agree on the black level. On my TV I can make out the super black of Devilman Lady's hair that's darker than the darkness they are fighting in. But I'm not the expert. I also don't notice any blocking in the dark areas. Didn't look for banding though.

As for the grain... It's grain. The structure is weird close up to the TV. At viewing distance it's just grain to my eyes.

It's not perfect. It's not great. It's serviceable at best, and it should have been a super budget release and nowhere near 24000 yen MSRP (I didn't pay that much). Not worth the price but...I had to have it. No doubt I'll double dip if it gets a NA release...

[Gorgon]

^^ I'll wait but it is now on my want list.
TYVM for all the info folk!

[NLScavenger]

Originally Posted by NLScavenger

VD2 doesn't handle interlaced content very well (see the handling of interlaced chroma in BD screenshot #3), but I believe the problems can be avoided by feeding the video into an avisynth script first. I haven't bothered setting up avisynth with VD2, so I'm using madVR for interlaced content.

Got around the interlaced chroma issue with 1080i YV12 content in VD2 (32bit) with an Avisynth script.

Install AviSynth

Get DGAVCDec. Demux the raw video from the container with MKVExtract or tsMuxeR. Open the raw video in DGAVCIndex to create an index file (say track1.dga). Then create the script in notepad and save as an ".avs" file.

# raw video demuxed from M2TS (Blu-ray BDAV MPEG-2 transport streams)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth\plugins\DGAVCDecode.dll")
AVCSource("D:\track1.dga")
Converttoyv16(interlaced=true)

Or use FFmpegSource2 if you don't want to demux the raw stream from the container.

Loadplugin("path to ffms2.dll")
FFmpegSource2("path to video")
Converttoyv16(interlaced=true)

-----------------------------

Open the .avs script in VD2, use the IVTC or deinterlacing script depending on the contents / or add a suitable external filter to the avisynth script.


-----------------------------

VD2 with interlaced chroma problem


VD2 with DGAVCDec + Converttoyv16(interlaced=true)


VD2 with FFMpegSource2 + Converttoyv16(interlaced=true)


madVR

[Naiera]