HDR Discussion Thread

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

So does 4K Blu-ray players require HDMI 2.1 to show HDR10+ ?

No, but not all standalone Blu ray players will necessarily be FW upgradable to hdr10+

Something like Xbox one would be easier to upgrade than a standalone for instance due to its flexible programmability.

[DanBa]

A format war brings no benefit for consumers.

Like NTSC/PAL/SECAM or Dolby/DTS/..., different HDR formats can coexist.

HDR formats are just software (decoding/mapping software) at the TV level and modern TV are compuTV (computer + TV).
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50302361

And software development is much easier and faster on HDR TV’s modern operating systems than on rigid and complex DSP platforms of audio/video receiver, or than hardware development on NTSC/PAL/SECAM system TV.

A playback device, TV or audio-video receiver, should be able to playback any content.
It is content that matters most for consumers, not content format.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54720718

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Ruined

This is most likely what will happen given the Fox alliance, yes.

Below is my response to HeatEquation's post. Do you think it could be accurate?

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Don't mind him. He's just salty because he knows the only way he'll be able to view Avatar 2 and Deadpool 2, along with the next X-Men movie, in dynamic HDR on disc will be with HDR10+/Dolby Vision compatible equipment.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Ruined

And Dolby Vision? Optional.

DTS decoding is optional yet more & more TVs have it.

How is an open standard with no royalty fee "beholden to Samsung"?

Support. Dolby gives a full range of support for licensees.

And this exactly the reason Panasonic gave for supporting HDR10+, Dolby Vision costs too much.

Yeah, poor Panasonic. Barely scraping by they are. Can't match companies like Vizio or TCL.

HDMI was massively entrenched in the home theater market long before displayport. Dolby Vision and its handful of discs and lack of support from what is by far the largest TV manufacturer is not.

Not as massively entrenched that they couldn't have switched over to a royalty free and actually better performing connector - not to mention a connector that locks into place! Also, all the companies supporting Dolby Vision - Sony, Hisense, TCL, Vizio, etc. all have a larger market share.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

So does 4K Blu-ray players require HDMI 2.1 to show HDR10+ ?

Nope, it doesn't. HDMI 2.0b will be sufficient for TVs and for players.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

A format war brings no benefit for consumers.

Like NTSC/PAL/SECAM or Dolby/DTS/..., different HDR formats can coexist.

HDR formats are just software (decoding/mapping software) at the TV level and modern TV are compuTV (computer + TV).
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50302361

And software development is much easier and faster on HDR TV’s modern operating systems than on rigid and complex DSP platforms of audio/video receiver, or than hardware development on NTSC/PAL/SECAM system TV.

A playback device, TV or audio-video receiver, should be able to playback any content.
It is content that matters most for consumers, not content format.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54720718

Don't worry, there won't be a war. HDR10+ will put DV out of its misery before we see a full on war.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Don't worry, there won't be a war. HDR10+ will put DV out of its misery before we see a full on war.

Might want to hold off that statement until you give us your first impression of a HDR10+ show or movie.

I will check back in a couple hours, unless you need a little more time.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Nope, it doesn't. HDMI 2.0b will be sufficient for some TVs and for some players.

Fixed it for you.

[StingingVelvet]

All ra-ra-go-team-go debates aside, I definitely think it's an interesting situation where Dolby is asking people to accept a closed standard they profit from while HDR 10+ seems intent on making a race of it. I haven't seen Dolby Vision at home yet and try not to let self-interest cloud my judgment, but my appreciation of open platforms makes me hope HDR 10+ succeeds, I think. Best for the format overall, assuming the quality comparisons are roughly in line.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Might want to hold off that statement until you give us your first impression of a HDR10+ show or movie.

I will check back in a couple hours, unless you need a little more time.

I want to specify that it be on DISC.

DV has what?, over 100 titles on streaming availability, and 3 months ago that was the cat's meow that all the dare I say fanboys could talk about (take it easy everybody, just calm down).

Now there's a problem rolling out the DV version on disc, a hiccup on 6 or so discs.

10+ has -0- titles available to stream right now. I'm sure this will gain traction, as streaming is just a single file encode. When 10+ gets APPROVAL from the BDA for disc use, plus implementation, we will see how that goes then. I can't imagine that happening before maybe 12 months from now? Would be happy to hear HeatEquations estimate for disc implementation. And how trouble free will it be in reality? Better have some pretty good SOC's in your players and displays to merge those 2 layers back together again.

My money is riding on Dolby, based on a Z9D and Oppo 203.

So everybody will no doubt have streaming dynamic DV or 10+ HDR, if that is your thing. Disc based evidently takes more "ken hoo" (know how!).

[Ruined]

LG will be the next domino to fall to HDR10+ IMO.

With Fox lining up exclusive content for HDR10+ and LG OLED not having enough brightness for pure HDR10, either LG supports HDR10+ or its OLED users will have a degraded experience for all new Fox movies. LG can't really afford that, as it pushes more potential buyers towards Samsung QLED which is bright enough to not need dynamic metadata.

HDR10+ should be able to implemented via firmware in XBOX ONE. If that happens, HDR10+ will overnight catapult far ahead of Dolby Vision in "install base" of 4K UHD Blu-ray players due to XBOX ONE's far wider penetration than standalone players.

Panasonic is one of the largest founders of Blu-ray Disc and is in the HDR10+ camp so I don't see HDR10+ being an issue at all for the BDA.

And Amazon Video is already lined up for a streaming partner for HDR10+.

Plus let's not forget, the largest TV manufacturer in the world, by far, is all-in on HDR10+ and has no interest or need to support Dolby Vision.

Then there is the fact that HDR10+ is an open dynamic HDR metadata standard that is cheaper to implement than DV... So this is definitely shaping up to be a hefty battle despite Dolby Vision's early lead.

[Caleb C.]

I'm not convinced that the DV discs are the problem. I have now watched two discs that supposedly have issues (Power Rangers and The Fate of the Furious), and the black bars remained black throughout the entire runtime.

Some Dolby Vision picture settings, at least on the LG OLEDs, do not work the same as HDR10 settings. Maybe people are messing with them, instead of keeping them at their default values. I just don't understand how the discs could be at fault, when they work fine for some people but not others.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Ruined

LG will be the next domino to fall to HDR10+ IMO.

With Fox lining up exclusive content for HDR10+ and LG OLED not having enough brightness for pure HDR10, either LG supports HDR10+ or its OLED users will have a degraded experience for all new Fox movies. LG can't really afford that, as it pushes more potential buyers towards Samsung QLED which is bright enough to not need dynamic metadata.

HDR10+ should be able to implemented via firmware in XBOX ONE. If that happens, HDR10+ will overnight catapult far ahead of Dolby Vision in "install base" of 4K UHD Blu-ray players due to XBOX ONE's far wider penetration than standalone players.

Panasonic is one of the largest founders of Blu-ray Disc and is in the HDR10+ camp so I don't see HDR10+ being an issue at all for the BDA.

And Amazon Video is already lined up for a streaming partner for HDR10+.

Plus let's not forget, the largest TV manufacturer in the world, by far, is all-in on HDR10+ and has no interest or need to support Dolby Vision.

Then there is the fact that HDR10+ is an open dynamic HDR metadata standard that is cheaper to implement than DV... So this is definitely shaping up to be a hefty battle despite Dolby Vision's early lead.

LG doesn't care they support HDR10/Dolby Vision and HDR-HLG already.

Panasonic is a joke now as far as US marketshare, they blew it, be a long time if ever they recover market share.

Samsung has lousy quality assurance. Found KS model I received had liquid drops residue all over the screen. (new in box condition) My LG OLED had zero workmanship issues- perfectly clean, obviously way different QA standards. Yeah how about those Samsung remotes - garbage also

[JohnAV]

LG IFA 2017 Interview: 77" Wallpaper OLED TV, Technicolor Mode, HDR10+ - YouTube

From the interview with Darren Petersen, Head of Product Marketing & Partnerships at LG UK
Against HDR10+:
"As far as its emergence its still too early to say and its not a industry standard and we will just have to wait and see how its progresses".

[eddylovelace]

I just bought a 4K 3D tv and the resolution is so great. Some movies look "live."

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

When you're doing a Dolby Vision pass for UHD Blu then the HDR10 layer is a fundamental component of how it all works, being both derived from and the technical basis for the proper Dolby Vision output. Point being, the HDR10 layer is created from the Dolby original, it's an intrinsic part of that chain so where does HDR10+ fit in re: the creation of its own metadata from source in that specific environment? I suppose the tech gurus could take the same HDR source master (not the DV/HDR10 offshoots) and run that through their HDR10+-O-Matic to create their own metadata, but seeing as the HDR10 layer has already been trimmed from the Dolby master specifically then the HDR10+ data could be making choices not best suited to the Dolby-derived base layer.

Understood

I know that's as clear as mud, I'm even confusing myself, but I just think that the HDR10+ workflow would be FAR cleaner if dealing with a freshly graded HDR10 base layer that's its own thing and not an offshoot from the Dolby master. Yes, I also know that with everything on there then everybody wins but it sounds like too much hassle to me with far greater potential for mistakes.

I agree there is potential for mistakes, and it would be hassle certainly in the early days yes. But i'm saying - if the authoring could be sorted out - this would be absolutely great, so not "too much hassle" in my book.

Originally Posted by JohnAV

From the interview with Darren Petersen, Head of Product Marketing & Partnerships at LG UK
Against HDR10+:
"As far as its emergence its still too early to say and its not a industry standard and we will just have to wait and see how its progresses".

My favourite part of that interview was when Vincent pointed out you would have to be very rich to buy one of their 77" TVs, and the guy had no choice but to agree with him. LOL.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

LG doesn't care they support HDR10/Dolby Vision and HDR-HLG already.

Panasonic is a joke now as far as US marketshare, they blew it, be a long time if ever they recover market share.

Samsung has lousy quality assurance. Found KS model I received had liquid drops residue all over the screen. (new in box condition) My LG OLED had zero workmanship issues- perfectly clean, obviously way different QA standards. Yeah how about those Samsung remotes - garbage also

LG is going to care since they don't support the only HDR dynamic metadata option for future Fox HDR movies, LG's OLEDs won't be bright enough for pure HDR10, and Samsung QLED will look far superior as a result.

Until they support HDR10+ LG is now at a disadvantage with Fox movies due to LG OLED inability to display HDR10 static with enough brightness.

LG will likely stretch it out as long as they can but they will need to cave to HDR10+ for their OLED sets to remain competitive with Samsung QLED across all content.

Re panasonic, they are one of largest Blu ray founders so point is there should be no issue getting HDR10+ through BDA.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Would be happy to hear HeatEquations estimate for disc implementation. And how trouble free will it be in reality?

Unlike any other studio that has committed to DV, Fox actually has a vested interest in getting its dynamic HDR format on as many discs as possible. So I predict that a large portion of their discs will contain HDR10+, maybe even the majority of them. Then you've got WB rumored to be looking at HDR10+, Universal is a partner of Samsung's and could follow suit. I'm sure we'll see other studios jump on board as well.

If HDR10+ has issues like DV, then all it would mean is that static HDR10 will remain the king of HDR (at least for a little while longer.)

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Fixed it for you.

Well, Panasonic's TVs are able to do it. Still remains to be seen if Samsung's 2016 TVs will be able to play HDR10+ over HDMI with just a firmware update. However, even if they can't, Samsung could release an upgraded One Connect Box (an external box that they use for their TVs which contains the HDMI chipset.) Samsung did this back in 2015 in order to add several new features to their TVs. Apparently, they're looking into doing it now as well, in case HDR10+ over HDMI is not possible on their 2016 TVs through a simple firmware update.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by DanBa

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54128881

So HDMI 2.0b is all that is required to play HDR10+. Why is the box for HDMI 2.0b/HDR10+ a NO and not a YES? Or a least a YES* with a note explaining a condition.