HDR Discussion Thread

[StingingVelvet]

"Stay on topic" types got their backs up in the Goodfellas thread where this conversation was going on, so I'm gonna ask a follow up here.

I've been researching the Samsung KS8000 versus the Vizio P-Series a good bit today for UHD and HDR usage. Rtings suggests the Vizio for dark room movie watching, which is all I do, but the Samsung has better HDR brightness. It seems to come down to better highlights (Samsung) versus better blacks (Vizio). I'm inclined to think blacks are more important, especially after reading several "washed out looking" complaints about the Samsung, which is my whole problem with my Samsung KU6300. I'd love to hear some advice though.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

"Stay on topic" types got their backs up in the Goodfellas thread where this conversation was going on, so I'm gonna ask a follow up here.

I've been researching the Samsung KS8000 versus the Vizio P-Series a good bit today for UHD and HDR usage. Rtings suggests the Vizio for dark room movie watching, which is all I do, but the Samsung has better HDR brightness. It seems to come down to better highlights (Samsung) versus better blacks (Vizio). I'm inclined to think blacks are more important, especially after reading several "washed out looking" complaints about the Samsung, which is my whole problem with my Samsung KU6300. I'd love to hear some advice though.

Well, first of all, the Vizio P isn't even a true HDR TV. Rtings turned off the dimming function for their tests, and so they measured 500 nit peak brightness (still incredibly low for what an HDR TV requires) but the blacks and uniformity were then virtually identical to the KS8000.

Home Theater Hifi did the tests with the dimming function turned on. The blacks were slightly better than what rtings measured (but keep in mind that people still complain of blooming with that TV) but the brightness took a huge hit. So much so, that it was basically an SDR TV:

All of the models graphed in red are VIZIO FALD LCD models we’ve tested or have obtained data on. All exhibit the “inverted power response” behavior (and we have every reason to extrapolate that the couple we haven’t measured follow suit).

If you haven’t already, go back and take another look at my Dolby Vision calibration of the VIZIO P50. I hope the gears are turning in your head right now and the proverbial lightbulb of thought is turning on.

When we asked it to give us its best, to go as bright as it can over a small area…it is actually at its worst! What I haven’t told you yet is that I had to “cheat” in order to calibrate it: its output with a 10% pattern size is so low it couldn’t even come close to reaching its own Golden Reference target of just 400 nits (which if we are being honest is not all that impressive to begin with). With a 1% size window its output is below the SDR standard! I actually had to use a 35% window size just to get enough light out of it to calibrate it. It is impossible for the current VIZIOs to produce a categorically accurate HDR picture. Don’t get me wrong, the picture isn’t “bad” and cooked up high APL images look impressive, but make no mistake: it is not correct.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...r-calibration/

The Vizio also has a narrower color gamut and worse color volume.

I'm not sure why people have complained about a washed out picture with the KS8000, but that's been far from my experience, and I'm sure many other owners would agree. It's the brightest and most colorful TV at its price range.

If you end up having an issue with dark room viewing with the KS8000 (not all owners do) then you can buy inexpensive bias lighting, as I stated in the other thread. Mastering is done with bias lights - so that's how blu ray discs are meant to be watched anyways.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

"Stay on topic" types got their backs up in the Goodfellas thread where this conversation was going on, so I'm gonna ask a follow up here.

I've been researching the Samsung KS8000 versus the Vizio P-Series a good bit today for UHD and HDR usage. Rtings suggests the Vizio for dark room movie watching, which is all I do, but the Samsung has better HDR brightness. It seems to come down to better highlights (Samsung) versus better blacks (Vizio). I'm inclined to think blacks are more important, especially after reading several "washed out looking" complaints about the Samsung, which is my whole problem with my Samsung KU6300. I'd love to hear some advice though.

I've been Involved with this debate for a long time. The ks8000 kills the Vizio p in every area except black uniformity. Colors, cable upscale, sun glare. Also, the Samsung has a very inky look because of the anti glare and the glossy panel whereas the Vizio has a very dry matte screen. For hdr blu-ray, the Samsung will be much better, except super dark scenes. It's really a very annoying decision because it's hard to pick which area u want it to excel in.


Just to throw a wrench in there, the new Vizio M series is expected to be available in the next month. It's available the day it gets announced. It will likely be a better version of the P series. Should be a little brighter and hopefully they switch to a glossier panel. It will be a better option than the Vizio P. The new Vizio won't be out til 2018, it's on a 2 year cycle.

[StingingVelvet]

I tend to use bias lighting anyway because I like a higher backlight, so sounds like the Samsung might be the way to go. I'm just wary of getting a washed out HDR picture again. Sounds like that won't be the case.

The 60" KS8000 is in-stock about 30 miles away, which is far, but maybe worth it. The 55" is available everywhere around here.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I tend to use bias lighting anyway because I like a higher backlight, so sounds like the Samsung might be the way to go. I'm just wary of getting a washed out HDR picture again. Sounds like that won't be the case.

The 60" KS8000 is in-stock about 30 miles away, which is far, but maybe worth it. The 55" is available everywhere around here.

The dimming and blacks are much better than the ku6300. If you use bias lighting, you should be okay. The daytime and normal scene for HDR will look incredible. 1400 nits o compared to 550 nits on the Vizio P.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I tend to use bias lighting anyway because I like a higher backlight, so sounds like the Samsung might be the way to go. I'm just wary of getting a washed out HDR picture again. Sounds like that won't be the case.

The 60" KS8000 is in-stock about 30 miles away, which is far, but maybe worth it. The 55" is available everywhere around here.

I personally haven't even seen complaints about a washed out picture. The complaints you saw were probably just a result of defective panels or settings that were way off.

I've seen the same complaints with the 2016 Sony TVs (800, 900, and even the 930.) The 930 is a very good TV, so even in that case, it was likely just a defective panel, or incorrect settings.

A KS8000 in good condition should give you very saturated yet realistic colors.

[Bladerunner5375]

I just got the Vizio P75-c1. My previous tv was a non hdr Sony 79xbr900b, which had a great picture, but slightly ok black levels. My impression so far is that the Vizio HDR is indeed not close to being as bright and colorful as other HDR Tv's, but it's black levels are so far beyond any tv I've ever seen that wasn't an OLED.

In fact, it's close enough to OLED for less money and a larger screen. HDR is definitely discernible on the Vizio but it's rendered less of a visual treat than HDR on a Sony 900e , for example. I sacrificed what I felt were the unrealistic colors of HDR for a FANTASTIC picture with deep, dark, inky blacks. I'm happy I did.

However, if you just LOVE the super brightness and candy colors of HDR, the Visio is not for you. I've owned my share of TV's, including a KURO, but the Vizio p75-C1 is what I've been looking for ever since!

[StingingVelvet]

Assuming it "confirms store stock"...

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Bladerunner5375

However, if you just LOVE the super brightness and candy colors of HDR, the Visio is not for you. I've owned my share of TV's, including a KURO, but the Vizio p75-C1 is what I've been looking for ever since!

Well I am definitely buying it for UHDs to look right, so having the proper brightness seems the way to go. With bias lighting hopefully the blacks aren't bad. I probably wouldn't use local dimming on the Vizio anyway, which is where the great blacks come from. I notice every little flaw in that process.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Assuming it "confirms store stock"...

Nice.

[Bladerunner5375]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Well I am definitely buying it for UHDs to look right, so having the proper brightness seems the way to go. With bias lighting hopefully the blacks aren't bad. I probably wouldn't use local dimming on the Vizio anyway, which is where the great blacks come from. I notice every little flaw in that process.

Samsungs are pretty darned good, so I'm sure you will love your new tv! Congrats!

Just to update: Using my amazon fire tv, i went on YouTube and looked up a bunch of those store demo HDR videos, and with the TV on "Standard" picture mode, I WAS indeed able to get those beautiful, bright colors with no problem. For 4k Ultra Blu-rays, however, I feel the "Calibrated Dark" mode with a few tweaks was better.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Bladerunner5375

Samsungs are pretty darned good, so I'm sure you will love your new tv! Congrats!

Just to update: Using my amazon fire tv, i went on YouTube and looked up a bunch of those store demo HDR videos, and with the TV on "Standard" picture mode, I WAS indeed able to get those beautiful, bright colors with no problem. For 4k Ultra Blu-rays, however, I feel the "Calibrated Dark" mode with a few tweaks was better.

I don't think the Amazon Fire TV actually supports YouTube HDR, does it? From what I know, only the 2016/2017 Samsung TVs, the LG G6, and Chromecast Ultra do.

But I'm sure those videos look good even in SDR.

[Bladerunner5375]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I don't think the Amazon Fire TV actually supports YouTube HDR, does it? From what I know, only the 2016/2017 Samsung TVs, the LG G6, and Chromecast Ultra do.

But I'm sure those videos look good even in SDR.

Hmmm, that's a great question! the videos certainly LOOKED like HDR. I know the Netflix app on the Amazon Fire supports HDR, so maybe the YouTube app does as well?

I should've checked the status while the videos were playing. will do tomorrow and let you know!

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Nice.

Slightly worried about losing five inches but if I scoot my recliner up a bit it should be fine. Hitting right at a $1,000 made the wife much easier to convince. What are your settings roughly? I know the basics, movie mode and calibrate with AVS Tools. More asking if you have color space on native or auto for HDR, your player on auto or 4:4:4, stuff like that. If you don't mind saying.

[DanBa]

[Chordata]

I have a modest XBR65X850D, and my 4k player is the Xbox One S. I know....neither are overly impressive. They work for me though.

I'm a complete HDR noob. Both devices are supposed to have HDR. My question is -- is that something I have to 'turn on'? Thanks for humoring me.

[Vangeli]

From Vizio's 2017 press event yesterday, Vizio M-Series Vs. Samsung's new hyper-expensive QLED series.



No sort of calibration can get the black bars any darker on the Samsung. This is what full-array local dimming affords you. The Samsung panels get brighter for sure, but it uses vertical (plain stupid for 2.35:1 content) edge-lit zones. If you watch TV in a dim room, get the Vizio M or P-Series. Hell, even the new FALD E-Series is better and cheaper(!) than Samsung's non-active backlight 7000-series.

[2themax]

The update P-series was announced today.

https://www.vizio.com/p-series

[Vangeli]

Originally Posted by 2themax

The update P-series was announced today.

https://www.vizio.com/p-series

It's the same hardware as the 2016 model, (they got rid of the brushed aluminum finish a few months ago, so people claiming "it's a new model because of the anodized finish" are wrong,) the only difference being that it has a major software overhaul and the tablet remote is replaced with a standard remote with more buttons.

The 2016 model will be receiving this same software update this summer, as it is indeed still the same hardware. Whether or not Vizio allows current owners to get the new standard remote remains to be seen, however.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Vangeli

From Vizio's 2017 press event yesterday, Vizio M-Series Vs. Samsung's new hyper-expensive QLED series.



No sort of calibration can get the black bars any darker on the Samsung. This is what full-array local dimming affords you. The Samsung panels get brighter for sure, but it uses vertical (plain stupid for 2.35:1 content) edge-lit zones. If you watch TV in a dim room, get the Vizio M or P-Series. Hell, even the new FALD E-Series is better and cheaper(!) than Samsung's non-active backlight 7000-series.

LOL!!! Anyone who would take these screenshots seriously needs some serious help. Black bars absolutely do not look like that on any TV, including any Samsung TV, unless you artificially raise the brightness setting to 100 or something, which literally no one does.

The problem with the Vizio TVs, as I've already posted, is that if you turn the dimming function on, you're getting an "HDR" TV that performs like an SDR TV. If you turn it off, then the blacks are no different than on any edgelit TV, except the peak brightness is still about 1/3 of what you'd find on a premium Samsung. The color gamut and color volume on the Vizio is also worse, and so is the tone mapping.