Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Hunter]

For those interested on why to use dialnorm, this is a quote straight from the DTS-HD Master Audio Suite user guide:

The purpose of DIALNORM is to achieve a consistent level of dialogue from one program or programsource to the next. End-users set volume to achieve a pleasing and intelligible level of dialogue. However, dialogue level varies considerably across different program types. For example, in a feature motion picture, dialogue typically averages -27 dBFS LeqA in order to allow sufficient headroom for explosions and other effects. In contrast, in a news broadcast the announcer’s voice may average -15 dB, closer to full scale; and various other programs will have other dialogue levels appropriate to their headroom needs. If there is no compensation, the end-user will have to turn up the feature film, turn down the news broadcast, etc. With dialogue normalization, a DIALNORM value of -27 is assigned to the movie, and a value of -15 is assigned to the newscast. The dialogue levels then match on playback and no user adjustment should be necessary. For music, which contains no dialogue, DIALNORM may be used to set playback loudness at a level appropriate in the context of other program material, determined subjectively. A DIALNORM value of -31 results in no DIALNORM attenuation. For broadcast or disc authoring of a feature motion picture, if direct measurement has not indicated a different level, set the DIALNORM value to -27. This has been widely accepted as typical for features, and THX-certified playback equipment assumes a value of -27 in aligning levels between the home and the dubbing stage.

[Penton-Man]

So I come in here to view the results and some of the comments and I see Blu-Dog, KrellDog, srrndhound and I’m wondering……………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8

Seriously, I would like to thank everyone for their contributions, except for those that have questioned the significance, relevance or parameters of this survey which I ordained.

We will continue to monitor the data as well as pertinent explanations.
Carry on.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Hunter

For those interested on why to use dialnorm, this is a quote straight from the DTS-HD Master Audio Suite user guide:

We knew all that already( well i did)

And people keep saying DTS uses dialnorm also. yes the option is there, but i never seen it used.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So I come in here to view the results and some of the comments and I see Blu-Dog, KrellDog, srrndhound and I’m wondering……………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8
with a Monkey thrown in the mix for good measure.

Seriously, I would like to thank everyone for their contributions, except for those that have questioned the significance, relevance or parameters of this survey which I ordained.

We will continue to monitor the data as well as pertinent explanations.
Carry on.

So penton is sony having a good laugh at this at the office or what?

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by saprano

So penton is sony having a good laugh at this at the office or what?

I bet the DTS people are

[davcole]

I think the key that has been argued by Blu Dog, which keeps getting overlooked is that for the general public DRC can be involutarily invoked because the preset in players and receivers is AUTO. People are apologists for DOLBY and this scheme and blow it off as simply turning it OFF, however the majority of end users will never come to forums like this and would never know why some discs aren't of the same dynamics as the rest of their collection. Remember the big stink about IRON MAN when it had the default on the disc to ON. How many threads were done here about people getting lesser audio? People from PS3 owners to standalone owners had to be educated on this from this website though each and every one of them received an owner's manual which could describe how to handle the situation.

Blu-Dog is right, it should be an "opt-in" instead of an "opt-out" and in all honesty, Dolby needs to recognize this on their future products. This is all a part of what I spoke of with ergonomics of design. Make it simple for the end user. The end user only wants to load up their disc and watch the damn movie.

As for DIALNORM, it's been pointed out several times how unnecessary it is on digitial disc media. If the goal of BD lossless compression is to accurate reproduce the original PCM track in a compressed form, why fiddle with the volume preset? Seriously, that's not a complicated request and simply put if Dolby would readjust their encoders to disable dialnorm, instead of default to it, this would be a non-issue.

TRUEHD is an amazing product that is based on an amazing product and that's MLP. I've been a DVDA owner for a long while now and I can tell you that MLP brings an accurate sonice experience to PCM. Now the real question is, if people are perceiving DTSMA to be better, what is it that TRUEHD is doing that's different?

Something to think about...

Seriously, look at the numbers of this poll. It's telling something. The question is Dolby listening?

[Rob J in WNY]

Originally Posted by davcole

Seriously, look at the numbers of this poll. It's telling something. The question is Dolby listening?

I'm going to guess that both Dolby and DTS have been apprised of this little corner of cyberspace.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BStecke

You still don't get it. A lossless track, even with DRC set to on, is still a lossless track. The same information is present. Turning this setting off (one time, not every time - another point you seem to miss) eliminates any range compression, thus giving you the same result as PCM or DTS HDMA. However, there is nothing about DRC that makes anything un-lossless.

I have to share my DRC experience with my HD DVD of BOURNE ULTIMATUM. As i'm sure many may know that disc was encoded with the DRC ON flag. As the default on decoding is AUTO, it kicked my Onkyo receiver into DRC on. Now I would have to go in while the disc was playing (don't ask me why Onkyo did it this way) and disable DRC. However when the receiver was turned off, then turned back on later the DRC would go back to the AUTO default, thus every time I wanted to watch the disc, i'd have to go in EACH TIME and disable DRC to get complete dynamic range. So for some of us we actually do have to disable DRC every time a disc enables it. It's not a one-time event.

No one here is arguing that DRC is a bad thing to have, in fact properly implemented, it's a good thing. However the key error from a end user concern is that you have to opt out of it.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by BStecke

Jesus Christ. It's like talking to a wall.

No way it's not! A wall wont keep spewing out idiotic nonsense as if it's facts.

Here's some facts:

DRC was enabled once, on Iron Man... ONCE. It wasn't even a Sony title. Has it happened since? Did it happen before Iron Man? Nope, just the once. How many bitstream pops did DTS have (yes, I realize it's hardware, but it was still a problem with the receiver combined with the DTS format). Further more, how is this even an argument against Dolby?! Some people actually do use DRC for late night viewing! IT'S OPTIONAL!

Sony doesn't DialNorm their titles. With Dolby TrueHD you'll end up with sound that's equally as loud (keep in mind, I said loud, not good) as DTS-HD MA. Also, if Sony did use DialNorm, it DOESN'T DEGRADE THE SOUND QUALITY. It simply makes it quieter which you counter act by turning your sound up (normally 4db).

I also saw something where Blu-dog made a little rant about a blind sound test and people enjoying DTS better. He then said Dolby will come out with their SPL meters... you do know you should be using one WITH DTS as well, right? You know you still have to set the speakers to the appropriate levels.


I think my biggest issue with all of this is that if Sony does switch to DTS-HD MA, the people with the opinion that DTS is better will think they've been proved right when they haven't. I don't think I need to say it but I will anyway. If Sony switches, IT WILL BE A BUSINESS DECISSION. It will not be because Dolby TrueHD is inferior in any way. Though I can see how a simple person might go "all these studios magically switched at once because DTS is better! Plus I like the light on my receiver! Far out! It's so much better than PCM!!! And Dolby TrueHD was analog anyway! I win!"

There are people on here that actually have a good reason to vote for DTS. Some people prefer the DTS core if they're unable to decode any of the lossless audio codecs, which is fine. That actually is something I can understand. What I can't understand are the people that are completely ignoring the facts.

Anywho, I think enough facts have been stated about both DTS and Dolby. Have fun!

[GoodToGo]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

DRC was enabled once, on Iron Man... ONCE. It wasn't even a Sony title. Has it happened since? Did it happen before Iron Man? Nope, just the once. Some people actually do use DRC for late night viewing! IT'S OPTIONAL!

Of course, no one is disputing that. The problem is something else. For every TrueHD title, you have to go and check whether DRC is on or not. I don't want to do that Why on earth would I want it to be on? Or do I have to come running to these forums to check whether it is on or not by default?

People touting DRC as the next thing don't realize that most people just turn it down when doing late night viewing. Some use headphones. Some (like me) just don't view it till a better time. All are viable options.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

What I can't understand are the people that are completely ignoring the facts.

See sound like somewhat of an acquired taste. What one person may like, the other may not. Doesn't make both of them right or wrong, it is just their opinion and their choice. What TrueHD "defenders" seem to be ignoring is that people are choosing DTS MA based on superior sound in THEIR opinion. What does facts have to do with it?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by GoodToGo

For every TrueHD title, you have to go and check whether DRC is on or not. I don't want to do that Why on earth would I want it to be on? Or do I have to come running to these forums to check whether it is on or not by default?

Perhaps you missed the answer to your concern amid all the vitriol in this thread ... but, not to worry. You don't need to keep checking on the discs or in a forum. You actually can't check on a disc, as far as I know.

As was mentioned several times by knowledgable posters, all you need to do is change a single setting on your decoding device to make sure DRC is set to Off instead of Auto. You do that just once when you set up the device and it's never an issue after that. Even the notorious Iron Man disc will play without dynamic range compression. I know that to be true because it did for me. That's the way it's supposed to work. And it does.

What player and receiver do you have? Perhaps someone here can help with that setting if you haven't already checked it yourself.

[RiseDarthVader]

Originally Posted by GoodToGo

See sound like somewhat of an acquired taste. What one person may like, the other may not. Doesn't make both of them right or wrong, it is just their opinion and their choice. What TrueHD "defenders" seem to be ignoring is that people are choosing DTS MA based on superior sound in THEIR opinion. What does facts have to do with it?

You see people are spreading FUD by saying that DTS-HD MA is better because it sounds better when infact it does not! it is the same as Dolby TrueHD. It would be fine if they just say they prefer DTS-HD MA because of the core track or whatever but when they start saying that it sounds better on their systems then say a Blu-ray.com reviewers high end equipment then it starts to get annoying. Especially if they question someone like Sir Terrance and think their ears hear a difference when a sound engineer that has tested ears and has seen the wavelengths know there is no difference.

[trans22]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I can see it now - the double blind test, identical equipment right out of the box.

Same movie popped into both rigs, one in Dolby, one in DTS. The audience listens up.

Everybody like DTS. So a swarm of Dolby labcoats get busy, twiddling the knobs on the receiver, running around with SPL meters, shouting "hey, does WIDE mean OFF or what" while some guy answers, "who the heck knows, Sam took the manual with him to the restroom" and finally, "go on blu-ray dot com, somebody there probably already figured this thing out" until finally everything is set.

The DTS guys are sitting back, having a drink, one of them falls asleep...

The audience is watching all this, and finally, the retest. Both systems sound identical. Finally the audience is asked, "well, which system would you prefer?"

See the poll numbers for the results.

hilarious but so true

[GoodToGo]

Originally Posted by RiseDarthVader

You see people are spreading FUD by saying that DTS-HD MA is better because it sounds better when infact it does not! it is the same as Dolby TrueHD. It would be fine if they just say they prefer DTS-HD MA because of the core track or whatever but when they start saying that it sounds better on their systems then say a Blu-ray.com reviewers high end equipment then it starts to get annoying. Especially if they question someone like Sir Terrance and think their ears hear a difference when a sound engineer that has tested ears and has seen the wavelengths know there is no difference.

Very interesting, are you saying that their opinion is invalid because they don't have high end equipment? Not everyone has the kind of money / will / need for an expensive setup. Also, I have no way of finding out equipment used by people voting for DTS MA. If I had to take a guess, there surely will be folks in there with mid range sound setup if not high end.

OR

Are you trying to say that TrueHD is made solely for high end equipment in which case it will sound every bit as DTS MA?

[GoodToGo]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Perhaps you missed the answer to your concern amid all the vitriol in this thread ... but, not to worry. You don't need to keep checking on the discs or in a forum. You actually can't check on a disc, as far as I know.

As was mentioned several times by knowledgable posters, all you need to do is change a single setting on your decoding device to make sure DRC is set to Off instead of Auto. You do that just once when you set up the device and it's never an issue after that. Even the notorious Iron Man disc will play without dynamic range compression. I know that to be true because it did for me. That's the way it's supposed to work. And it does.

What player and receiver do you have? Perhaps someone can help with that setting if you haven't already checked it yourself.

I already have DRC turned off on my PS3. I like to be the safer side. There is no concrete way of knowing whether some BD's will turn it on or whether it will turn on after a firmware update. The thing is that DRC makes a movie sound like crap in my opinion. I would rather not sit through the full movie wondering why it sounds so feeble only to check up later and find DRC was on.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by GoodToGo

I already have DRC turned off on my PS3. I like to be the safer side. There is no concrete way of knowing whether some BD's will turn it on or whether it will turn on after a firmware update. The thing is that DRC makes a movie sound like crap in my opinion. I would rather not sit through the full movie wondering why it sounds so feeble only to check up later and find DRC was on.

Have you observed that PS3 firmware updates break the operation of the player's DRC setting - that it gets engaged even when turned off? I've never seen that reported before.

Nonetheless, I always think it's a good idea to check through the settings on a player after doing a firmware update. Often, settings get set back to defaults. Just takes a couple of minutes and provides peace of mind going forward.

[ussrelativity]

Absolutely they should switch to DTS-HD MA!

[odin24]

Originally Posted by saprano

We knew all that already( well i did)

And people keep saying DTS uses dialnorm also. yes the option is there, but i never seen it used.

I'm on the fence with this debate, I like either codec as long as it is encoded/mixed well. A TrueHD track mixed can sound leagues ahead of a poorly mixed DTS HD-MA, and vice versa. At the moment both of my kids are hooked on KungFu Panda, a 24 bit TrueHD track that KICKS ACE (and is without dialnorm). They are also into Bolt and A Bug's Life... also ACE kicking tracks... both DTS HD-MA, so it doesn't really matter, use either IMO.... none of which are Sony . Fifth Element, CJ7, and Res Evil Extinction... all good surround movies, all Sony, all with TrueHD/and dialnorm.

Dialnorm also affects all channels, not just the center channel... too offset this use the volume knob.

But, on to the purpose of this post.... Saprano, I have seen a few movies with DTS HD-MA tracks with dialnorm applied, probably less than a handful. All have been European titles with 24fps (not 23.976). Two I know for sure is In Bruges and The Escapist, both -4dB.

@ Saprano. Is your avatar of anyone famous, she looks familiar?

[AlaskaDon]

I agree with what you guys have been saying about DRC not being a big deal as you can just turn it off. It sure would be nice if they made that easy to do. It's not what I would call easy on my equipment. I have a Denon 3808 AVR, and if you simply turn it on, pull up the GUI with the remote, and start looking thru the setup menus for the proper setting in order to switch it off, guess what... There is no setting for DRC. You actually have to feed it a TrueHD source and go to the menu while the source is playing in order to find it and turn it off. It doesn't appear on the menu unless it's actually playing/decoding TrueHD.

I'm fairly familiar with my equipment and I still had to dig out the manual when I went to check it tonight, because I couldn't remember how to get to it from the last time that I went looking for it. The average Joe is going to have to know about the problem in the first place, find out exactly what he needs to do in order to fix it, then dig thru a manual in order to "simply" turn it off. He's not going to be happy. There's gotta be a better way.

[GoodToGo]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Have you observed that PS3 firmware updates break the operation of the player's DRC setting - that it gets engaged even when turned off? I've never seen that reported before.

Nonetheless, I always think it's a good idea to check through the settings on a player after doing a firmware update. Often, settings get set back to defaults. Just takes a couple of minutes and provides peace of mind going forward.

I have, till now it hasnt turned on by itself. But as I said, I play it safe