Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Robert Siegel]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

Yes, that's what Penton-Man wants to know, and maybe Sony will adopt it. That's ok with me. I voted Yes in the poll myself. However, I know darn well there is no difference between the codecs once they're decoded back to PCM. I just support dts, period.

Some people, and I'm one of them might have voted Yes just because they like the dts logo better than Dolby's. I think dts looks cool on an AVR's display. That's just my preference. We don't really know what those people were thinking when they voted Yes.

I hope Sony goes dts-HD, but not because it sounds better than TrueHD.

Again, I think that there were probably some votes for DTS due to the years of laserdisc and DVD. As I said earlier, if a laserdisc had DTS, it was always preferred and a better soundtrack (I remember Evita being one great example-the DTS laserdisc version was kick ass compared to the DD). There was a huge difference then. And then with DVD, we knew that usually (not always) the DTS if included had a higher bit rate than the Dolby. So I think some people may think that because of its supremacy in home video soundtracks of the past that DTS MA is better on Blu-ray than Dolby True. I also voted DTS. It really didn't matter to me but I have always been a supporter of DTS and some of their accomplishments with the previous formats, especially laserdisc, a format I lived through and bought plenty of, especially DTS versions if available. But in the end, as I said before, I am happy as long as there is a lossless track.

I don't know if this has been brought up before in this thread, I didn't see it. Does anyone know if a bit rate has anything to do with the sound quality? For instance, many of the DTS MA soundtracks are 4-7 mbps, while I find alot of Dolby True to be around 1.5-2.2 mbps, does this make a difference with lossless?

Actually this thread has been quite an educational experience (when people remain civil hehe).

[Robert Siegel]

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

Wow, 1000 posts on this topic!

Darn, if only I had waited a few more minutes haha :-)

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by mntwister

Again, I think that there were probably some votes for DTS due to the years of laserdisc and DVD. As I said earlier, if a laserdisc had DTS, it was always preferred and a better soundtrack (I remember Evita being one great example-the DTS laserdisc version was kick ass compared to the DD). There was a huge difference then. And then with DVD, we knew that usually (not always) the DTS if included had a higher bit rate than the Dolby. So I think some people may think that because of its supremacy in home video soundtracks of the past that DTS MA is better on Blu-ray than Dolby True. I also voted DTS. It really didn't matter to me but I have always been a supporter of DTS and some of their accomplishments with the previous formats, especially laserdisc, a format I lived through and bought plenty of, especially DTS versions if available. But in the end, as I said before, I am happy as long as there is a lossless track.

I don't know if this has been brought up before in this thread, I didn't see it. Does anyone know if a bit rate has anything to do with the sound quality? For instance, many of the DTS MA soundtracks are 4-7 mbps, while I find alot of Dolby True to be around 1.5-2.2 mbps, does this make a difference with lossless?

Actually this thread has been quite an educational experience (when people remain civil hehe).

Dolby TrueHD doesn't have a core being added to the lossless track. It can also go down to 0kbps for silent moments. DTS is stuck at 1.5 or higher because the core is part of the lossless track which is also why their tracks would be higher. Along with the fact that different bit depths would effect the outcome as well... But again, lossless is lossless. They both end up the exact same.

[Robert Siegel]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Dolby TrueHD doesn't have a core being added to the lossless track. It can also go down to 0kbps for silent moments. DTS is stuck at 1.5 or higher because the core is part of the lossless track which is also why their tracks would be higher. Along with the fact that different bit depths would effect the outcome as well... But again, lossless is lossless. They both end up the exact same.

Thanks Clayton, I wasn't sure how that worked. I knew about the core track but not the rest. Much appreciated.

[RazorBlade]

Many TrueHD soundtracks do have a core included. Also a secondary DD track for whatever reason. I know Warner's TMNT did.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by RazorBlade

Many TrueHD soundtracks do have a core included. Also a secondary DD track for whatever reason. I know Warner's TMNT did.

Dolby uses a different structure than DTS. DTS has a 5.1 lossy core and creates lossless by adding extension data to the core. The TrueHD core is a full resolution stereo mix that is not used as a building block of the multichannel lossless mix in the same manner as DTS.

[Monkey]

So when does this poll officially end for Sony's purproses? Are they ready to switch to DTS-MA the crystal clear winner? Or are they going to wait a bit to see if the trend starts to reverse?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Monkey

So when does this poll officially end for Sony's purproses? Are they ready to switch to DTS-MA the crystal clear winner? Or are they going to wait a bit to see if the trend starts to reverse?

The poll announcement said no decision was imminent. It also mentioned that Sony was looking for information other than preference.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by BIslander

The poll announcement said no decision was imminent. It also mentioned that Sony was looking for information other than preference.

It's probably just best to ignore when he posts. If you notice, he's only posting nonsense to try to get people upset in this thread (fanboyism to the fullest!!!)

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by RazorBlade

Many TrueHD soundtracks do have a core included. Also a secondary DD track for whatever reason. I know Warner's TMNT did.

The term "core" is a bit confusing wrt TrueHD in BD. Since TrueHD is optional, BD requires a lossy companion track every time it is used. It is not a "core" track like DTS, as it is not used when decoding TrueHD, but it is a core track in that it is carried in tandem in the MPEG transport stream with the lossless signal in the identical manner as HDMA. Structurally they are identical on the disc.

I am not sure how the player's bitrate indicator operates. If it reads the total audio data with the same PID (core and lossless) then TrueHD and HDMA are apples to apples. If it reads only the data parsed out and being decoded by the audio decoder, then they are apples/oranges wrt to data on the disc.

Some BD discs offer another Dolby Digital track in the audio menu, and this is optional and in addition to the one traveling with the lossless track. The one carried with the lossless audio cannot be presented on the user menu.

[davcole]

I think that Penton kind of hinted at the purpose of the poll and that is how many would be upset if Sony switched to DTSMA. Seems a very small minority would be bothered. The majority are in favor and a sizeable amount wouldn't care either way.

To me that kinda indicates they've all but made up their mind to switch codecs. They were looking for resistance and they aren't finding much.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by davcole

I think that Penton kind of hinted at the purpose of the poll and that is how many would be upset if Sony switched to DTSMA. Seems a very small minority would be bothered. The majority are in favor and a sizeable amount wouldn't care either way.

To me that kinda indicates they've all but made up their mind to switch codecs. They were looking for resistance and they aren't finding much.

Which is sad... it shows how many uniformed people there are out there. Like I said before, I know there are REAL reasons to go with DTS (the light on a receiver isn't a good enough opinion IMO) just like I know there are reasons to go with Dolby. But now the DTS fanboys are going to think this proves them right and that there is some magical, majestic difference between 2 identical audio tracks which is sad...

[davcole]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Which is sad... it shows how many uniformed people there are out there. Like I said before, I know there are REAL reasons to go with DTS (the light on a receiver isn't a good enough opinion IMO) just like I know there are reasons to go with Dolby. But now the DTS fanboys are going to think this proves them right and that there is some magical, majestic difference between 2 identical audio tracks which is sad...

I guess this is where I get lost?

While I agree that seeing a codec "light up" on your receiver seems silly, there's been some real tangible arguments in favor of the codec. Sony must see them otherwise they would not be soliciting opinions? The incompatibility with early models seemed to be their concern but that's been a quiet minority.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by davcole

I guess this is where I get lost?

While I agree that seeing a codec "light up" on your receiver seems silly, there's been some real tangible arguments in favor of the codec. Sony must see them otherwise they would not be soliciting opinions? The incompatibility with early models seemed to be their concern but that's been a quiet minority.

You neglect the "silent majority" who own BD players and don't use this or other message boards.

[Scorxpion]

Encoding with Master Audio

Super-high quality video takes up a LOT of space during mastering, even on Blu-ray Discs. If possible, the content creators will encode with DTS-HD Master Audio, which is more efficient in terms of disc space and bit -stream bandwidth. In Short - the efficiency of DTS-HD Master Audio allows content creators to provide higher quality video, while encoding lossless audio that is identical to the studio master.Plus old AVR can take advantage of DTS @ 1.5 mbps.

Secondary Audio for interactive features known as DTS express and it is already used by Sony and can provide up to 5.1 channel interactivity .In other Words "The DTS Express audio is mixed with the Primary Audio, giving you an intensely great interactive surround experience"

Speaker re-mapping and it is only available in DTSHD master audio whereas Dolby TrueHD provides only standard configuration for your 7.1 speakers.


Higher the bit rate equal high quality and if this is not true should not be evident by the results of this poll.DTS high resolution can save space and at the same time can provide 7.1 speakers configuration with higher bit rate till now we see 3 mbps but can go up till 6.

DTS lossy plus extensions already mentioned in this thread and we talked about a lot.Its a shame on Sony who were behind the Blu-ray format since the beginning and can't provide at least a 24bit Dolby TrueHD for all their releases only for some exceptions like Underworld rise of Lycans.I wanna Salute Paramount because mostly their releases in Dolby TrueHD are fantastic because they are using 24 bit all the way and aggressively on their most titles.

Kudos for Disney taking the right decision dropping DolbyTrueHD and choosing DTSHD master audio ,National treasure book of secrets imported from Canada used this technology.My salutation and Bravo for FOX,Lionsgate and Disney including the Unbelievable Studio Universal who continue to exceed our expectations and released the true high definition titles


Sony are you listening!

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

Speaker re-mapping and it is only available in DTSHD master audio whereas Dolby TrueHD provides only standard configuration for your 7.1 speakers.

Let's see.

The implementation of this "feature" is responsible for 7.1 discs that get downmixed incorrectly to 5.1 in some cases.

It also prevents people from using PLIIx and Logic7 to intelligently matrix 5.1 to 7.1.

I believe this feature only works if the decoder knows where the listener has actually placed his/her speakers. How do you give the decoder that information? And, who would benefit from speaker remapping if it actually worked?

So, why is this a reason to use DTS-HD instead of TrueHD?

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by BIslander

The poll announcement said no decision was imminent. It also mentioned that Sony was looking for information other than preference.

Thanks BIslander for being civil. Should be interesting to see if they change strategies.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

It's probably just best to ignore when he posts. If you notice, he's only posting nonsense to try to get people upset in this thread (fanboyism to the fullest!!!)

You are more than free to follow your own advice. From your posting history I can tell you prefer to continue with classless personal attacks on others.

So asking questions based on facts = nonsense, LOL nice I like the way you think, keeps the internet interesting

Originally Posted by Monkey

So when does this poll officially end for Sony's purproses? Are they ready to switch to DTS-MA the crystal clear winner? Or are they going to wait a bit to see if the trend starts to reverse?

[Scorxpion]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Let's see.

The implementation of this "feature" is responsible for 7.1 discs that get downmixed incorrectly to 5.1 in some cases.

It also prevents people from using PLIIx and Logic7 to intelligently matrix 5.1 to 7.1.

I believe this feature only works if the decoder knows where the listener has actually placed his/her speakers. How do you give the decoder that information? And, who would benefit from speaker remapping if it actually worked?

So, why is this a reason to use DTS-HD instead of TrueHD?

Let's see again here:

"SO, what if a movie’s sound engineer mixed the audio with one type of layout, but your speaker system is set up differently? Don’t worry, you’re good. DTS-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Audio include an exclusive feature called Speaker Re-mapping. Sophisticated algorithms are used to electronically “reposition” speakers, so you get the best possible sound quality without having to physically re-arrange your speakers. All DTS-HD featured A/V receivers have the ability to re-map content mixed with up to seven different speaker layouts. All you have to do is plug in one of the two common layout types (see graph below) in your AV receiver’s setup menu, and DTS-HD Speaker Re-mapping does the rest.

"It also prevents people from using PLIIx and Logic7 to intelligently matrix 5.1 to 7.1."

Why should i care about Pro Logic II or Logic 7 if i have lossless at hand ,why i should playing in a fantasy world if not going to listen to the movie as the director intended or as it is encoded by the Studio.All i care about is lossless sound wherever it is 5.1 or 7.1.For example if it is encoded only as 5.1 channel this is only my choice and vice versa.

Thanks,

[Tok]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

The one carried with the lossless audio cannot be presented on the user menu.

Interesting I never knew that. You truly are one of the few here who adds useful information. At least regarding Dolby.

BTW, I meant to praise you for your response to Sir Terrence regarding dts' plausible deniability. I am not surprised that some questionable practices have gone on behind the curtain in the codec wars.

But I just can't believe the number of lemmings that insist dts-MA is better than TrueHD. If both codecs are doing their jobs correctly there is no difference. Unless the dts encoder is applying an EQ curve during encode PUMP That BASS boi

"But that curve flattens the flat TrueHD curve" said the dts fanboy

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

Let's see again here:

"SO, what if a movie’s sound engineer mixed the audio with one type of layout, but your speaker system is set up differently? Don’t worry, you’re good. DTS-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Audio include an exclusive feature called Speaker Re-mapping. Sophisticated algorithms are used to electronically “reposition” speakers, so you get the best possible sound quality without having to physically re-arrange your speakers. All DTS-HD featured A/V receivers have the ability to re-map content mixed with up to seven different speaker layouts. All you have to do is plug in one of the two common layout types (see graph below) in your AV receiver’s setup menu, and DTS-HD Speaker Re-mapping does the rest.

"It also prevents people from using PLIIx and Logic7 to intelligently matrix 5.1 to 7.1."

Why should i care about Pro Logic II or Logic 7 if i have lossless at hand ,why i should playing in a fantasy world if not going to listen to the movie as the director intended or as it is encoded by the Studio.All i care about is lossless sound wherever it is 5.1 or 7.1.For example if it is encoded only as 5.1 channel this is only my choice and vice versa.

Thanks,

Funny I have a dts-MA decoder in my setup and I have no parameter for entering my speaker layout. Add these non-standard layouts to dts' attempts to one up Dolby. They have caused more problems than they have solved.