Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[ClaytonMG]

Tweak and adjust for Iron Man? I like that... Change the DRC from "Auto" to "Off." It's litterally that simple. So how do you treat the symptoms of DTS bombs and wrong channel mapping errors? I see you don't really address that issue but you seem hung up on Iron Man and dialnorm for some reason. 2 things that you can correct by turning off DRC, and turning the volume up 4db. You will not ever be able to do anything about the 7.1 titles that have the wrong channel mapping applied. The DTS bombs required firmware upgrades to receivers after people nearly damaged their speakers.

Which of these things are easier to correct, dialnorm, DRC, bitstream bombs, or incorrect channel mapping?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Do your own homework. Dolby states clearly what their reasons are for including Dialnorm and DRC; and as I recall, you're not willing to discuss issues with me. For that reason, I really don't feel like getting assignments from you for easily accessible information or quotes.

It's there; go look.

I'd be happy to discuss issues with you if you actually engaged in meaningful discussion. But, that's rarely the case. So, there's really no point.

Regardless, you made two unreferenced claims - (1) that the Dolby white paper says dialnorm and DRC are not useful because they are misused so often and (2) that dialnorm is for broadcast applications, not recorded media. Since both of those claims are completely untrue, I asked you to provide citations that support your position. I think that's a reasonable request and one that you should be able to fulfill quite easily, provided you have an actual interest in discussing these issues.

Dialnorm can be set to a level that does not alter the original "metadata" (I have no idea why that word impresses you so)...

??? I gather you are not familiar with that term. The phrase "does not alter the original metadata" has no meaning here. Metadata is data about the data. It is not the data itself. Dialnorm is part of the metadata included by Dolby and DTS encoders. There's also metadata for downmixing and DRC. Metadata is a useful term in these discussions.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

As I said (and many others), studios decide the actual DialNorm level. Don't like it? Complain to the studios.

They're a moving target. I don't know what each release will be in - it's impossible to say; we're all guessing until just before the release date.

I'd also hate to complain to the studios about Dolby releases that are reference grade, and done correctly without DRC or Dialnorm nonsense. That's just purist fanboy nonsense; I wouldn't want the Police concert, or the Yes disc, tampered with in any way.

I'd rather go after the people who call out the standard for their encode. Then, if the studios vary from it, and I find out about it (they certainly don't make their fiddling public knowledge), I can call BS on them.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

In the meantime, bumping up the volume a few notches shouldn't be the exercise in agony you make it to be, unless you have one of those cheesy HTIBs with a low max volume.

I have two high end home theaters in my home. Both use Pioneer 84THX receivers. The main one - centered on a 60" Kuro screen - also has a 2 channel B&K amplifier to drive Sonus Faber Domus mains. The remainder is all Definitive Technology Mythos speakers; I use two Mythos ST towers as surrounds, Mythos Eights ast rears, and a Mythos Ten as the center speaker.

Subwoofer duties are handled by a single JL Audio Fathom.

The electronics: A home theater PC, built with a Zalman case, and Nvidia 8800GTS video card, is a Vista machine. The player is a Sony S550, hooked in via HDMI with internal decoding. I put the receiver, a DVR-enabled cable box, the player, the HTPC, and the B&K amp, inside an eight foot granite cabinet, with real ebony wood doors, under the Kuro. It's all controlled with a Harmony 1100 remote.

I can't see volume. This is not sitting on a Best Buy stand. By all accounts, it's the best looking and sounding setup anyone who's been in my home has ever seen.

The second home theater is similar - same receiver, same PC (except it's a Blu-Ray player), with my original Sony S300 that can't decode DTS-HD - with a Mythos Three center, Mythos One towers for mains, Vienna Acoustic Bach speakers as surrounds. and Mythos Threes for rears. For the hell of it, I also connected a Vienna Acoustic center I had sitting around with the Mythos Three, backing it up for center duties. It's anchored by a garden variety Klipsch SUB-12.

On that rig - where I watch TV - I can do the Joe Six-Pack twiddle with the volume thing. Except I don't decode DTS-HD there.

On my serious rig, done with an eye to very nice home theater, no flashy lights and Looky Me, I Has A Big Stereo shiny rack, all you see is the Kuro. So I don't run over and open the doors, farting around trying to fix what some thumb-fingered engineer screwed up at the studio, doing what Dolby told him to do, it says here.

So deep-six that jive time "You must be a HTIB kind of guy" jabber. Take it up with somebody that's not sure if he should buy Monster cables with his $200 Onkyo to get the best sound, or somebody like that.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

For m, not having any kind of DRC is a far more egregious error, and companies like THX, Dolby, and Audyessy have to come out with solutions for DTS' mistake. Plus nobody has the to label something "DTS Essentials" so you can know which decoding solution you're getting. I'm not about to replace my $2500 receiver I got in 2007 but the ONLY problems I've had are with DTS and to a lesser extent PCM...and at least all the PCM discs I own also have a 640kbps DD track.

Well, there's you, then there's nine guys next to you who either didn't have a problem, or would prefer DTS for whatever reason. I understand your ire about DTS issues; what I don't get is this Herculean defense of Dolby, which is ticking off so many people that by an overwhelming margin, they'd prefer to dump it, or at least not defend it.

If the problem is the studios, I will join you in going after them. But Dolby carries much of the blame - establishing a standard that just begs for misuse, and I can't see any reason for taking bullets for them at this time.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

I'd be happy to discuss issues with you if you actually engaged in meaningful discussion. But, that's rarely the case. So, there's really no point.

Excellent! Glad you've passed judgement on the quality of discussion with me.

Originally Posted by BIslander

Regardless, you made two unreferenced claims - (1) that the Dolby white paper says dialnorm and DRC are not useful because they are misused so often and (2) that dialnorm is for broadcast applications, not recorded media.

Yes, I made those statements.

Originally Posted by BIslander

Since both of those claims are completely untrue, I asked you to provide citations that support your position.

Here's where the fun begins. Now you make a claim - that my statements are completely untrue - and I'm supposed to snarl and stretch my chain and go hunting for quotes and all of that.

I don't have the time or interest for it. Dolby set up Dialnorm and DRC, many years ago, as broadcast standards. On reading their materials, it's clear that they did this as a broadcast standard; they go to great lengths to discuss it. They also discuss how the standard, while widely adopted, has been poorly implemented, with said implementation not made within the Dolby standard; I didn't take this as a mea culpa, or an admission of defeat, or anything of the type.

They simply stated that they wanted the standard correctly applied. Go find it, and I'm sure it won't take that long. You've probably read it already.

Originally Posted by BIslander

I think that's a reasonable request and one that you should be able to fulfill quite easily, provided you have an actual interest in discussing these issues.

In a different venue, perhaps. It's a reasonable request if we're truly trying to discern whether Dolby is a better, or worse, standard for lossless audio; I'm not interested in that, since I think Dolby can be implemented in such a way to make truly terrific encodes. As I've noted before, I can cite examples of such encodes.

My statement is simple; Dolby designed Dialnorm and DRC as broadcast standards, for reasons not associated with media of the type we discuss in this forum. This standard is irrelevant to Blu, and I'd like to see features that have difficulty being uniformly applied in the originally intended arena - to wit, broadcast - be disabled for this new platform. Dolby has stated clearly that its product is not correctly utilized in broadcast, and makes no bones about it.

I don't really feel like spending any more time on it, as I don't give a hoot about broadcast standards. They'll never get high definition right, and it's completely irrelevant for standard definition broadcasts.

Originally Posted by BIslander

??? I gather you are not familiar with that term. The phrase "does not alter the original metadata" has no meaning here. Metadata is data about the data. It is not the data itself. Dialnorm is part of the metadata included by Dolby and DTS encoders. There's also metadata for downmixing and DRC. Metadata is a useful term in these discussions.

I was just jabbing your ribs a bit, don't worry about it.

In any case, despite your disdain for my obstreperous behavior, I still read your posts. Every once in a while, you say something new - it's worth wading through the rest for those nuggets.