Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[saprano]

lol.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by saprano

So which is correct?

I don't know .. but people are doing a pretty good job convincing me its DTS

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

I don't know .. but people are doing a pretty good job convincing me its DTS

But that doesn't even apply here. We're not talking about which format is correct, we're talking about the level being correct. Back in the day DTS tracks were 4db above reference level which is why a lot of receivers enable a -4db dialnorm when decoding a DTS track. I don't know if that still applies to DTS-HD MA though...

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

But that doesn't even apply here. We're not talking about which format is correct, we're talking about the level being correct. Back in the day DTS tracks were 4db above reference level which is why a lot of receivers enable a -4db dialnorm when decoding a DTS track. I don't know if that still applies to DTS-HD MA though...

My real point was there has been so much back and forth in this thread. For better or worse DialNorm and DRC etc are *mostly* being talked about in reference to Dolby .. or maybe by Dolby focused folks is a better term .. that the overall effect .. given the above discussion .. is confusion. Associated with Dolby.

I really don't care .. other than features (DRC in particular) should be off by default IMO .. regardless of who it is in the chain (encoder, receiver). If people want it they should have to turn it on explicitly.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

My real point was there has been so much back and forth in this thread. For better or worse DialNorm and DRC etc are *mostly* being talked about in reference to Dolby .. or maybe by Dolby focused folks is a better term .. that the overall effect .. given the above discussion .. is confusion. Associated with Dolby.

I really don't care .. other than features (DRC in particular) should be off by default IMO .. regardless of who it is in the chain (encoder, receiver). If people want it they should have to turn it on explicitly.

DRC isn't automatically enabled on the track unless something goes wrong and the only time that has ever happened was on Iron Man. DialNorm the end user can't enable.

The reason people are going back and forth though is because of the misunderstanding that Dolby is inferior in anyway.

[trans22]

Although i want sony to change to DTS i recently rented PUNISHER: WAR ZONE here in the UK which is released by sony with TRUEHD and i have to admit that it sounds fantastic.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

DRC isn't automatically enabled on the track unless something goes wrong

The reason people are going back and forth though is because of the misunderstanding that Dolby is inferior in anyway.

Thanks.

So what I take away from your statement is DRC itself should really only be a receiver feature and Auto is superfluous. That is not an indictment of anything just clarifying I understand what your saying.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

Thanks.

So what I take away from your statement is DRC itself should really only be a receiver feature and Auto is superfluous. That is not an indictment of anything just clarifying I understand what your saying.

I'm honestly not even sure why there's an auto function now. There wasn't before (at least not on any of the receivers I've owned)... But it should be an option on whatever is decoding the sound (the player or the receiver).

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

My real point was there has been so much back and forth in this thread. For better or worse DialNorm and DRC etc are *mostly* being talked about in reference to Dolby .. or maybe by Dolby focused folks is a better term .. that the overall effect .. given the above discussion .. is confusion. Associated with Dolby.

Dialnorm and DRC are definitely associated with Dolby. Some consider them beneficial and a reason to prefer TrueHD to dts-MA. But, some posters here who favor DTS have been quite vehement about what they perceive to be problems with dialnorm and DRC. The extended discussion is an attempt to deal with those perceived problems. There is a good deal of misunderstanding about what those features do and what they don't do.

By the same token, if you go back a few pages, you will also see discussion about forced channel duplication and downmixing associated with dts-MA decoding.

Neither codec is perfect, especially when it comes to execution by consumer electronics manufacturers.

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

So what I take away from your statement is DRC itself should really only be a receiver feature and Auto is superfluous. That is not an indictment of anything just clarifying I understand what your saying.

DRC is associated with the decoding. So, if you are decoding in the player as happens with a PS3, it needs to be applied there. That's why it can't be limited to receivers.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Dialnorm and DRC are definitely associated with Dolby. Some consider them beneficial and a reason to prefer TrueHD to dts-MA.

I can definitely see benefits to the features. I'm pretty sure my system has some kind of night mode even though I haven't used it...but that's my particular circumstance that's neither here nor there.

Originally Posted by BIslander

But, some posters here who favor DTS have been quite vehement about what they perceive to be problems with dialnorm and DRC.The extended discussion is an attempt to deal with those perceived problems. There is a good deal of misunderstanding about what those features do and what they don't do.

By the same token, if you go back a few pages, you will also see discussion about forced channel duplication and downmixing associated with dts-MA decoding.

Neither codec is perfect, especially when it comes to execution by consumer electronics manufacturers.

I haven't read everything but my take is the more reasonable folks have had a problem with the implementation and not necessarily the feature per se. For either codec.

Originally Posted by BIslander

DRC is associated with the decoding. So, if you are decoding in the player as happens with a PS3, it needs to be applied there. That's why it can't be limited to receivers.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

I'm honestly not even sure why there's an auto function now. There wasn't before (at least not on any of the receivers I've owned)... But it should be an option on whatever is decoding the sound (the player or the receiver).

Yeah I really meant decoding...thanks for clarifying.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by saprano

So which is correct? i didn't know dialnorm raises volume only lower it. on some movies i see -4 and i others i see +4.

DN to my understanding is that it basically just an offset. Now I am not sure if some titles are showing titles that don't have DN are showing as +4dB since the default on most is -4dB. Like you I thought that DN could only lower volume.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/z...data.Guide.pdf

Originally Posted by Dolby Metadata Guide regarding DN

The Scale
The scale used in the Dialogue Level setting ranges in 1 dB steps from –1 to –31 dB.
Contrary to what you might assume at first, a setting of –31 represents no level shift
in the consumer’s decoder, and –1 represents the maximum level shift. Here’s why:
Dolby Digital consumer decoders normalize the average output level—that is, the
output level averaged over time using the equivalent loudness method, Leq(A)—
to –31 dBFS (31 dB below 0 dB full-scale digital output) by applying a shift in level
based on the Dialogue Level parameter setting.
Note: The –31 dBFS Leq(A) should not be confused with the station reference
level (often –18 or –20 dBFS). It is common to have different Leq(A) values
for program material that has the same reference level. An average loudness
level of –31 dBFS Leq(A) is quite compatible with facilities running at a
variety of reference levels.
When a decoder receives an input signal with a Dialogue Level setting of –31, it
applies no level shift to the signal because this indicates to the decoder that the signal
already matches the target level and therefore requires no shift. In contrast, a louder
program requires a shift to match the –31 dB standard. When the Dialogue Level
parameter setting is –21, the decoder applies a 10 dB level shift to the signal. When
the setting is –11, it applies a 20 dB level shift, and so on.
A Simple Rule:
31 + (dialogue level value) = Shift applied
Example:
31 + (–21) = 10 dB
The most important point to remember is that in setting the Dialogue Level
parameter, you are providing your listener with an essential service. For your
listeners, setting this level properly means:
• The volume level is consistent with other programs.
• The DRC profiles you make available to them work as you intend.
Once dialogue level is set, you can set up DRC profiles to further benefit the
consumer.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by CraigW

DN to my understanding is that it basically just an offset. Now I am not sure if some titles are showing titles that don't have DN are showing as +4dB since the default on most is -4dB. Like you I thought that DN could only lower volume.

I believe Dolby decoders only lower the volume based on dialnorm. It looks like Onkyo AVRs may intervene to do their own dialnorm adjustments. It would interesting to compare the DN offsets on the same disc decoded by both a player and an Onkyo receiver. Does the player report the same DN adjustment as the Onkyo?

You mention "titles that don't have DN". I don't think that's possible with a Dolby encode. DN is a metadata field that must have a value ranging from -31 to 0. Dolby decoders output average dialog at -31dbFS (decibels below full scale). If the dialnorm value is -31 (or 0), the decoder doesn't make any adjustments. Any other dialnorm value from -30 to -1 means the decoder needs to attenuate the overall volume to produce an output at -31dbFS. The decoder would only raise the volume if DN were -32 or less. But, -31 is the lowest valid entry for the DN parameter. You can't enter a value that would cause the decoder to increase the overall gain.

Most movies are encoded at -27dbFS, which is why the usual dialnorm adjustment is -4db. The decoder lowers the overall volume to so that the output is -31dbFS instead of -27dbFS. -4db is not a default offset. It's the usual number because -27 is the DN value that most studios use during encoding. When Sony says it isn't using dialnorm, that really means it is entering a value of 0 or -31 as the DN parameter. in effect, that tells the decoder not to adjust the playback volume.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by BIslander

I believe Dolby decoders only lower the volume based on dialnorm. It looks like Onkyo AVRs may intervene to do their own dialnorm adjustments. It would interesting to compare the DN offsets on the same disc decoded by both a player and an Onkyo receiver. Does the player report the same DN adjustment as the Onkyo?

You mention "titles that don't have DN". I don't think that's possible with a Dolby encode. DN is a metadata field that must have a value ranging from -31 to 0. Dolby decoders output average dialog at -31dbFS (decibels below full scale). If the dialnorm value is -31 (or 0), the decoder doesn't make any adjustments. Any other dialnorm value from -30 to -1 means the decoder needs to attenuate the overall volume to produce an output at -31dbFS. The decoder would only raise the volume if DN were -32 or less. But, -31 is the lowest valid entry for the DN parameter. You can't enter a value that would cause the decoder to increase the overall gain.

Most movies are encoded at -27dbFS, which is why the usual dialnorm adjustment is -4db. The decoder lowers the overall volume to so that the output is -31dbFS instead of -27dbFS. -4db is not a default offset. It's the usual number because -27 is the DN value that most studios use during encoding. When Sony says it isn't using dialnorm, that really means it is entering a value of 0 or -31 as the DN parameter. in effect, that tells the decoder not to adjust the playback volume.

Poor choice of my wording. What I meant was titles with DN at 0dB, in other words... no offset applied.

What is more concerning though is why does packaged media need a DN feature. I can understand in the broadcast world where it would be useful switching between channels but when viewing a DVD or BD I really don't see the point. Plus I think even Dolby would concede that DN has not been properly used in the broadcast world. BUT when DN has been properly implemented in a decoder it does not affect the dynamic range/bitdepth of the recording like some want you to believe. You get the same PCM output if the DN was endcoded at -4 or 0. I really think this thing stems from 'OCD' users who set their volume at 0 to listen at reference. Just turn it up 4dB or what ever the offeset indicates if you are that OCD about it.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by CraigW

What is more concerning though is why does packaged media need a DN feature. I can understand in the broadcast world where it would be useful switching between channels but when viewing a DVD or BD I really don't see the point. Plus I think even Dolby would concede that DN has not been properly used in the broadcast world. BUT when DN has been properly implemented in a decoder it does not affect the dynamic range/bitdepth of the recording like some want you to believe. You get the same PCM output if the DN was endcoded at -4 or 0. I really think this thing stems from 'OCD' users who set their volume at 0 to listen at reference. Just turn it up 4dB or what ever the offeset indicates if you are that OCD about it.

Thanks for posting the link to the Dolby metadata specs. It explains the true value of dialnorm. It's main purpose is not to level the noise of TV broadcasts. Rather, DN is a critical piece of data used to assure proper downmixing and DRC across all sorts of platforms - from mono RF to lossless multichannel playback.

In the rather limited world of high resolution home theater audio, DN doesn't seem to serve much purpose. But, as best I can tell, it doesn't cause any problems there either (except, perhaps, for someone who objects to changing the volume at the start of a movie). Most of us tweak the volume at that time anyway - regardless of whether the disc uses PCM, dts-MA, or TrueHD.

As for listening at reference 0 - I would think that depends on how a person calibrates his system. If you use a Dolby encoded test disc, won't reference 0 equate to a DN of -31? And, won't a dts-MA disc encoded at -27 with no decoder offset end up 4db above 0?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Thanks for posting the link to the Dolby metadata specs. It explains the true value of dialnorm. It's main purpose is not to level the noise of TV broadcasts. Rather, DN is a critical piece of data used to assure proper downmixing and DRC across all sorts of platforms - from mono RF to lossless multichannel playback.

In the rather limited world of high resolution home theater audio, DN doesn't seem to serve much purpose. But, as best I can tell, it doesn't cause any problems there either (except, perhaps, for someone who objects to changing the volume at the start of a movie). Most of us tweak the volume at that time anyway - regardless of whether the disc uses PCM, dts-MA, or TrueHD.

As for listening at reference 0 - I would think that depends on how a person calibrates his system. If you use a Dolby encoded test disc, won't reference 0 equate to a DN of -31? And, won't a dts-MA disc encoded at -27 with no decoder offset end up 4db above 0?

Are you sure about the bolded portion above?

Right from the linked page....

Originally Posted by Dolby whitepaper

When received at the consumer’s Dolby Digital decoder, this parameter setting
determines a level shift in the decoder that sets, or normalizes, the average audio
output of the decoder to a preset level. This aids in matching audio volume between
program sources.

Now that DN setting can be used in conjunction with DRC.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by trans22

Although i want sony to change to DTS i recently rented PUNISHER: WAR ZONE here in the UK which is released by sony with TRUEHD and i have to admit that it sounds fantastic.

If you check out some of the concert BD's - Chris Botti, The Police, John Mayer, among others - you will hear absolutely amazing sound from Dolby HD encodes. Dolby can produce fantastic playback in lossless mode.

I get the impression that more care was taken with these productions than with run of the mill movie encodes. That's my main issue with Dolby; inconsistent delivery of unaltered lossless sound. DRC and Dialnorm are alterations, pure and simple, and need to be removed from the encodes.

There'd be no change to the codec; why it isn't done astounds me, and my preference for DTS is really based on the fact that it (or the engineers that do the encodes) seem to have fewer problems working with it.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Are you sure about the bolded portion above?

Well, I guess it's always dangerous to ascribe motivation or primary value to a particular function. Nonetheless, it seems clear that the DN value is fundamental to important Dolby processing functions that are not related to loud TV commercials. For example, how do you do proper DRC unless you know where the dialog is pegged in relation to full scale?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Well, I guess it's always dangerous to ascribe motivation or primary value to a particular function. Nonetheless, it seems clear that the DN value is fundamental to important Dolby processing functions that are not related to loud TV commercials. For example, how do you do proper DRC unless you know where the dialog is pegged in relation to full scale?

I don't think this is just a Dolby assertion though. There are recording industry standards that call out an average loudness of dialog. I do agree after looking closer at the spec that proper determination of the DN value is critical for DRC to work as designed. But there is nothing inherently bad about DN or DRC for that matter. What I find interesting is the way DRC is termed for consumer equipment vs. professional.

A CE maker uses the term Min DRC for what the professional equipment call Line DRC. Line implies the analog outputs are used and downmixing to 2-ch has occurred. Basically the DRC is used so that the analog signal does not clip/distort.

For Max DRC, the professional equipment calls it RF DRC. Basically the DRC compresses the signal that it does not affect the audio of a RF output that is carrying Mono Audio and composite video.
For

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

If you check out some of the concert BD's - Chris Botti, The Police, John Mayer, among others - you will hear absolutely amazing sound from Dolby HD encodes. Dolby can produce fantastic playback in lossless mode.

I get the impression that more care was taken with these productions than with run of the mill movie encodes. That's my main issue with Dolby; inconsistent delivery of unaltered lossless sound. DRC and Dialnorm are alterations, pure and simple, and need to be removed from the encodes.

There'd be no change to the codec; why it isn't done astounds me, and my preference for DTS is really based on the fact that it (or the engineers that do the encodes) seem to have fewer problems working with it.

DRC and DN are metadata meaning they only are instructions for the decoder. DN is the only one that cannot be defeated and again IT DOES NOT ALTER THE PCM TRACK that is created during decoding.

[Monkey]

View Poll Results: Should SPE Drop Dolby TrueHD and use DTS-HD Master Audio?
Yes, Drop TrueHD for DTS-HD MA 779 59.79%
No, I like things the way they are 127 9.75%
Wouldn't matter to me either way 373 28.63%
Other 24 1.84%
Voters: 1303.

I think we've been getting about 1 vote per day now for a week or so.

779 (85%) to 127 (15%) currently.