Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Meanwhile, DTS has Master Audio Essential decoding that's being used in most players. I see many more posts from people who can't figure out why they get no sound from their rear speakers with DTS-ES disks than from people complaining about DRC. With an Essential decoder, there's no setting to get it working, either. You have to run a second, connection to your AVR for that.

DTS appears to be mandating rear channel duplication for 5.1 dts-MA sources on 7.1 systems. So, people who want to use a sophisticated DSP such as PLIIx and Logic7 can't do so. They're stuck with duplicated rears instead.

And, depending on your receiver, you may not be able to apply a DSP or EQ at all with a dts-MA track. The processing power required to do the decoding is all that some AVRs can handle.

Honestly, don't think i've read in this thread from an end user going through that experience with the channel duplication, however that does not mean that it doesn't exist. I'll have to check other threads.

As for the "essentials", hell i'm in the same boat bitstreaming to my Onkyo 705. Does that make DTSMA a bad codec cause my receiver doesn't pick up the flag for DTSMA-ES, no, cause its' not a codec problem but a hardware problem. I can scan through all my "surround modes" on my Onkyo and while i'll play a dts legacy track and i'll find an ON for my ES discrete or matrix, I won't find that while playing a DTSMA or a DTSHR track, why, cause of the hardware error. This seems to be a problem with Onkyo's, as I've read that Denon's and maybe some of the other receivers have picked up the flag just fine. As a consumer, I hope that Onkyo does an upgrade for that model.

However i'm in a similar boat with DD+ on my Onkyo because my LG 200 has an error with their HDMI connection to Onkyo's and Pioneers, at time the DD+ signal gets lost and you hear a form of digital noise cause the receiver won't establish a correct handshake with the codec. Does this mean DD+ is a terrible product? No not at all, cause it's a hardware problem between the LG 200 and the Onkyo 705 handshake.

Let's not confuse codec issues with hardware issues.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

I think you're failing to understand that processing of the signal doesn't negate the fact that it's lossless. Remove the processing and the problem is solved, which is done easily by changing a setting.

Perhaps you haven't read what I've written. Why should I have to remove the processing? Why is it there as a default, at all?

Worse - why am I not notified that the processing has been invoked?

I have no problem understanding that Dolby has developed a working, practical lossless codec. I also have no problem understanding that Dolby automatically invokes processes that change that encoding into modes that are definitely NOT lossless; clearly, you know that as well.

Users should be informed when changes to processing are invoked. That doesn't happen with TruHD, as you have conceded. Any codec that requires special knowledge to defeat (and I am wondering if anyone has a way of finding out how and when DRC and Dialnorm are invoked) is deceptive, and deception tends to make my eyes bulge.

Side note: I do get a momentary flashup on the panel of my receiver when Dialnorm is invoked; I note with interest that I have seen the values vary from -4DB to -6DB, a significant amount on my system. And why, for crying out loud, would they vary?

[Rob J in WNY]

It was nice to finally see a discussion about DRC settings and its effects on audio, whether Dolby or DTS lossless.

If someone is bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD, a receiver's DRC setting of "Auto" will induce compression, which will give the audio a flatter dynamic range. It is a built-in function of TrueHD. Why? I'm not entirely sure, but it has something to do with someone's idea for certain listening standards in a home theater environment.

To be sure, bitstreamed DTS-HD Master Audio ignores a receiver's DRC setting if it is "Auto."

I wonder how many proponents of DTS-HD Master Audio (who bitsream audio from their players) have verified that their receiver's DRC settings. BD player DRC should be checked also (and turned off to produce maximum dynamic range).

There WILL be a difference in dynamic range if "Auto" is used, and TrueHD WILL sound flatter. I have auditioned this myself on my own equipment, and I can tell you that it's 100% accurate.

Turning all DRC off (player AND receiver) will offer the total dynamic range of the original master, and is ESSENTIAL for all sources. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out. We really don't get Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio tracks made from the same master on a disc, so we are just comparing one movie to another. I still say that Kung Fu Panda has one of the most brilliant, sparkling and dynamic soundtracks you can audition, and it's Dolby TrueHD.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Actually I believe that Sony masters their TrueHD tracks at -31 db which basically disables dialnorm, the default is -27 db. So no sense in debating about dialnorm on Sony BDs.

Interesting if true. But more to the point: why invoke Dialnorm at all?

[mr.hidef]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Perhaps you haven't read what I've written. Why should I have to remove the processing? Why is it there as a default, at all?

Worse - why am I not notified that the processing has been invoked?

I have no problem understanding that Dolby has developed a working, practical lossless codec. I also have no problem understanding that Dolby automatically invokes processes that change that encoding into modes that are definitely NOT lossless; clearly, you know that as well.

Users should be informed when changes to processing are invoked. That doesn't happen with TruHD, as you have conceded. Any codec that requires special knowledge to defeat (and I am wondering if anyone has a way of finding out how and when DRC and Dialnorm are invoked) is deceptive, and deception tends to make my eyes bulge.

Side note: I do get a momentary flashup on the panel of my receiver when Dialnorm is invoked; I note with interest that I have seen the values vary from -4DB to -6DB, a significant amount on my system. And why, for crying out loud, would they vary?

Sorry to change the subject....but I was just thinking....That the "funny" thing about all of this,is that the average "joe" wouldn't have a single clue about what you were just discussing!.....hee!....hee!

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

None of this is "plug and play". When you buy a player and a receiver you have to figure out what connections to use and what settings are needed on each device to facilitate/optimize the sound. Many people don't do that, of course, and end up watching and listening to inferior outputs as a result.

I've provided links to Dolby's site, directly to their DRC and Dialnorm pages.

Please find the section in those pages, if they exist, that tells the user how to know when DRC or Dialnorm are engaged.

Sony itself - the company whose decision is the topic of this thread - has a very ambiguous setting to disable DRC. The settings are "auto", "standard", and "wide" (doing this from memory) with "wide" meaning "off".

Something is sideways with this entire scenario. Hunting for esoteric setups should be an optional choice, not a default. Dolby's insistence on making this foolishness a snipe hunt for every user is the main reason I'd like to distance myself from it. I see no benefit in Dolby over any other format, and it's a problem that I, and no one else, needs to solve by scraping through manuals or device menus.

If you see some reason why looking for a way to make a system deliver lossless audio should be a chore, could you let me know what it is?

[davcole]

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

It was nice to finally see a discussion about DRC settings and its effects on audio, whether Dolby or DTS lossless.

If someone is bitstreaming Dolby TrueHD, a receiver's DRC setting of "Auto" will induce compression, which will give the audio a flatter dynamic range. It is a built-in function of TrueHD. Why? I'm not entirely sure, but it has something to do with someone's idea for certain listening standards in a home theater environment.

Great point Rob.

While we all know that IRON MAN kicks on the DRC and has to be disabled, I do think it's a good idea to make sure it's disabled for ALL discs. While TRANSFORMERS and INDIANA JONES are supposedly not "flagged" with the DRC ON, I did play around with and disabled the night mode to OFF position for those titles and it did seem to get better sound, particularily TRANSFORMERS. I have to admit, I was underwhelmed with I first listened to it, however when I saw a lot of people mentioning disabling DRC and it sounded better, I decided to again rent TRANSFORMERS and disable DRC and it indeed give a better sound.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by mr.hidef

Sorry to change the subject....but I was just thinking....That the "funny" thing about all of this,is that the average "joe" wouldn't have a single clue about what you were just discussing!.....hee!....hee!

Scary, ain't it...

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

Honestly, don't think i've read in this thread from an end user going through that experience with the channel duplication, however that does not mean that it doesn't exist. I'll have to check other threads.

You won't find it in this thread. But check the player threads at AVS for Panasonics, Pioneers, and the new Oppo. It's actually becoming a rather significant issue for some people using player decoding for PCM output over HDMI.

Let's not confuse codec issues with hardware issues.

I wouldn't dream of it. You took a left turn there into a discussion of problems with your Onkyo. Condolences. But, this is something else. You may want to read the announcement that DTS posted on its website explaining the limitations of the DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoder. Players with Essential decoders do not decode ES or 96/24 extensions on DVD. DTS suggests bitstreaming to a DTS decoder in a processor for those kinds of discs. Again, this is a limitation of the DTS Essential decoder itself.

http://www.dts.com/Corporate/Press_R...ter_Audio.aspx

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Interesting if true. But more to the point: why invoke Dialnorm at all?

That is a question that I have been asking for years!!! What is the point of having the audio playback AUTOMATICALLY play quieter than it's mixed?!?!?! That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Isn't it up to the user to decide what volume they wish to watch their content at? It's the reason that volume adjustments on AV equipment exist.

Sure, people will just turn up the volume (on EVERY DOLBY TRACK I might add), but should they have to? What's the point in forcing the user to do so? If they want it quiet, they'll turn the damn volume down by themselves.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

You may want to read the announcement that DTS posted on its website explaining the limitations of the DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoder. Players with Essential decoders do not decode ES or 96/24 extensions on DVD. DTS suggests bitstreaming to a DTS decoder in a processor for those kinds of discs. Again, this is a limitation of the DTS Essential decoder itself.

Sounds like a hardware issue - if a manufacturer installs only the Essential decoder, it affects DVD's and the handful (if any) Blu's that nuse Neo:6 and 96/24 codecs.

Doesn't affect my player. Here's what it says on the site:

"For standard-def DVD only, DTS-HD Master Audio Essential products do not currently support
DTS | 96 /24, ES, ES Matrix, and Neo: 6. However, DTS’ backwards compatibility for content playback, makes it possible for you to automatically enjoy your standard-def DVD entertainment experience with DTS Digital Surround. DTS Digital Surround offers over twice the resolution of other standard-def DVD formats."

"If you desire to playback the full DTS technology feature set with a DTS Master Audio Essential player for either high-def or standard-def content, you can simply change the audio setup mode in your player to stream out over HDMI and let your DTS-HD Master Audio receiver decode the DTS | 96 /24, ES, ES Matrix, and Neo: 6. Please reference your player user manual for details on audio setup."

Since you're a supporter of the idea of changing settings on equipment to get the desired sound, why do you have a problem with this?

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

You won't find it in this thread. But check the player threads at AVS for Panasonics, Pioneers, and the new Oppo. It's actually becoming a rather significant issue for some people using player decoding for PCM output over HDMI.

I wouldn't dream of it. You took a left turn there into a discussion of problems with your Onkyo. Condolences. But, this is something else. You may want to read the announcement that DTS posted on its website explaining the limitations of the DTS-HD Master Audio Essential decoder. Players with Essential decoders do not decode ES or 96/24 extensions on DVD. DTS suggests bitstreaming to a DTS decoder in a processor for those kinds of discs. Again, this is a limitation of the DTS Essential decoder itself.

http://www.dts.com/Corporate/Press_R...ter_Audio.aspx

Wow, I must be getting older cause that press release seems to be relating to DVD only? However that doesn't address BD.

[BIslander]

The instructions for applying DRC are contained in the metadata. Those instructions can always be executed by turning on DRC in the decoding device. So, davcole, that's why Transformers would sound compressed when you had night mode engaged at your end.

There's also a switch in the metadata designed to work with devices that have DRC set to "auto". If the switch is set to On and the playback device is set to Auto, then DRC is applied. That was the situation with Iron Man. I don't know whether it's common for a disc to have the switch set to On. I suspect it isn't all that frequent because Iron Man was viewed as unusual.

If you don't like compressed audio, as most of us here don't, then simply set DRC to off in your player and receiver.

[CYMBOL]

Wow - didn't expect DTS HD to win so overwhelmingly. (Even though I voted for it myself).

I shouldn't have to disable anything to hear the lossless soundtrack the way it was supposed to be. For whatever reason, perception or not, DTS HD and PCM sound sublime to me on almost every single blu-ray - True HD is usually just lacking something. After a while, you have to stop blaming the "mix".

Hope Sony goes DTS HD - if all the audiophiles say "it doesn't matter" - then cool, it shouldn't bug them if/when Sony goes DTS HD.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

Wow, I must be getting older cause that press release seems to be relating to DVD only? However that doesn't address BD.

Yes, that's the issue. DVDs with ES and 96/24 tracks. Discs like LOTR and Gladiator. The Essential decoders in many BD players don't decode them properly. So, you need to use a seperate player that can or run a second connection to a receiver that can . Turning off DRC in my player when I first set it up seems a bit easier than that.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

That is a question that I have been asking for years!!! What is the point of having the audio playback AUTOMATICALLY play quieter than it's mixed?!?!?! That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Isn't it up to the user to decide what volume they wish to watch their content at? It's the reason that volume adjustments on AV equipment exist.

Great point!

I personally think that Dialnorm is a good thing when it comes to television. Since the future of American television is DD, dialnorm makes perfect sense. That way "ideally" the channels will sound of the similiar volume. The reality isn't that case. I know on my DISH receiver that I have to rush to the volume control anytime I pass by NFL Network or DISH shows a commercial break cause the volume is cranked excrutiatingly high. Dialnorm a novel ideal but just didn't work, but I realize the need for it on television.

There is no and no reason for it to be on HIDEF or for that matter SD discs. It serves no purpose at all. I think that's what people's issues are here is Dolby's default status for it. In essence it needs to be disabled on the encoding end for disc, therefore no issues at all. Is it really that difficult for Dolby to redo their software program on the encoders for these studios so that films will run at their normal volume?

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

Wow - didn't expect DTS HD to win so overwhelmingly. (Even though I voted for it myself).

I shouldn't have to disable anything to hear the lossless soundtrack the way it was supposed to be. For whatever reason, perception or not, DTS HD and PCM sound sublime to me on almost every single blu-ray - True HD is usually just lacking something. After a while, you have to stop blaming the "mix".

Hope Sony goes DTS HD - if all the audiophiles say "it doesn't matter" - then cool, it shouldn't bug them if/when Sony goes DTS HD.

BOOYA CYMBOL!!!

I couldn't have stated my opinion on those matters any better!

DTS HD MA FTW!!!

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Yes, that's the issue. DVDs with ES and 96/24 tracks. Discs like LOTR and Gladiator. The Essential decoders in many BD players don't decode them properly. So, you need to use a seperate player that can or run a second connection to a receiver that can . Turning off DRC in my player when I first set it up seems a bit easier than that.

Oh, it can't be that complicated. What's the problem with going into the menu and changing a setting?

I think you're telling us that you shouldn't have to do anything to enjoy the sound. No switches, no fiddling with it.

That sounds like a terrific idea to me. I wonder why anyone thinks switches should be flipped in multiple devices to get the sound as the film makers designed it. Guess I'm not the only one.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

The instructions for applying DRC are contained in the metadata. Those instructions can always be executed by turning on DRC in the decoding device. So, davcole, that's why Transformers would sound compressed when you had night mode engaged at your end.

Sorry if you got the wrong impression. I had my receiver set to "auto" which is it's default and I still felt like I wasn't getting all of TRANSFORMERS that I kept hearing about. So on my 2nd rental, I turned the setting OFF and it seemed to give better detail.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Perhaps you haven't read what I've written. Why should I have to remove the processing? Why is it there as a default, at all?

Worse - why am I not notified that the processing has been invoked?

I have no problem understanding that Dolby has developed a working, practical lossless codec. I also have no problem understanding that Dolby automatically invokes processes that change that encoding into modes that are definitely NOT lossless; clearly, you know that as well.

Users should be informed when changes to processing are invoked. That doesn't happen with TruHD, as you have conceded. Any codec that requires special knowledge to defeat (and I am wondering if anyone has a way of finding out how and when DRC and Dialnorm are invoked) is deceptive, and deception tends to make my eyes bulge.

Side note: I do get a momentary flashup on the panel of my receiver when Dialnorm is invoked; I note with interest that I have seen the values vary from -4DB to -6DB, a significant amount on my system. And why, for crying out loud, would they vary?

I'm still failing to see what the big deal is. You turn the setting off once and you're done. Secondly, I can process a lossless signal down to one channel and to where the processing makes it sound like garbage. That doesn't change the fact that it's still lossless, and the processing has no bearing on the quality of the original, unprocessed signal. DRC doesn't compress the actual source, making it un-lossless, merely the dynamic range. It's still a lossless signal.