Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by Hep

I agree with everything you have said here; and I didn't mean to offend you with my terminology. I use the term baiting because you are repeatedly asking a question that you clearly already know the answer to, seemingly in hopes that a less well informed reply from a DTS-HDMA fan comes your way. You may find that limiting your posts to direct replies dispelling these myths using evidence is a more effective tactic. Afterall, you have valuable knowledge on your side. As for the other half of the DTS-HDMA fans, we just disagree that True HD is the best solution, and often for valid reasons.

Nicely put.

[Anthony P]

You still don't get it. A lossless track, even with DRC set to on, is still a lossless track. The same information is present. Turning this setting off (one time, not every time - another point you seem to miss) eliminates any range compression, thus giving you the same result as PCM or DTS HDMA. However, there is nothing about DRC that makes anything un-lossless.

so you are saying that if my PS3 decodes it and sends the PCM with DRC on that I would get bit for bit the same values I would get in the PCM as if it was off?

As for DialNorm - yet ANOTHER point you keep bringing up despite many people telling you - isn't even as hard as changing a setting. Adjust the volume to compensate for the difference. Done. Neither one of these are beyond anyone's grasp. If changing a setting is hard for anyone, I wonder what kind of jobs these people are qualified to do in the real world.

but no matter how many times some repeate it, it is not 100% true

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

So, your playback system has all signal processing turned off? No bass management, no gain trims, no room EQ--all to ensure you are hearing lossless audio unmodified? Seems a shame to give up on these useful features. But if you are not eschewing your AVR’s post-processing, how is the result any less lossless when the system uses dialnorm?

I use my Pioneer's Pure Direct mode. Settings are THX baseline. Calibration is through the MCACC microphone setup with the Elite. The sub, a JL Audio Fathom, is calibrated through its own microphone, and uses the pure source from the receiver.

MCACC introduce virtually no delay, or volume boost, to my speakers.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

If you play movies without any dialnorm, how do you set the playback volume? There's nothing on the disc jacket to tell you. Do you just set the volume for 0 dB, THX reference level, and watch everything that way? I suspect not--like many of us, this is often too loud, so we sometimes turn down the volume.

Playback is set at 0db on my Elite's dial. This is the baseline for all movie watching. Music playback volume varies, but movies sit at 0db. That's exactly how I do it, and I have reasons for doing it.

I"ve set up a theater, in a home, without neighbors to pound the ceiling or the floor about it.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Maybe you always set the volume for -10 dB or some other value you have determined over time is your "standard" level. No one told you what offset to use--you found it by repeated trials over time, adjusting the volume until it sounded "just right."

No, I'm setting the receiver to play back the sound under THX reference levels, and let the director and sound design team figure out how the film is supposed to be played back. I'm not watching soap operas or comedies, or talking heads on the news, when I'm looking for lossless high end audio.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Once you have determined your personal “standard” volume setting, regardless of whether it is 0dB, -10dB, or some other, if you always use that setting, do you find all movies have the same subjective loudness--not the explosions/peaks, but that the dialog is uniformly loud, at an equally comfortable listening level?

In DTS-HD, yes. For Dolby, it's all over the map. As noted previously, I cranked it up to +6db to get the same ambient level from Rise of the Lycans as I got from the original Underworld.

Before setting DRC to "wide" on my player, Iron Man was virtually unlistenable. It was no reference grade product after I "disabled" DRC, either, and still had to be cranked up.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

And do you find that you never have any movies that you feel need to be played at a slightly different volume?

Again, I don't have sleeping kids in the next room, neighbors on the other side of the wall, none of that. If I can't hear dialogue, I blame the sound mix - since I can hear dialogue in other films. What's galling me is the notion that it might be due to Dialnorm amputation or DRC compression, which is time-wasting and unnecessary.

I see where you're going with this, but while music volume does vary - movies should not. I include concert films in this, and I have several, almost all in Dolby.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Even though dubbing stages and, to a lesser extent, commercial theaters, are well calibrated, the taste of the sound mixers is not. And sometimes the final mix's overall level will be shifted by the producer--it happens. Many factors affect a movie's final loudness. While there is good uniformity across movies (much better than the music industry!), I do not find that the exact same volume setting is right for every movie--some are too aggressive and need to be backed down, some are quiet and need a little extra. And this is totally separate from other factors like one’s own mood, or other listeners in the room, which can also influence how loud we might play a soundtrack. This is one of the great benefits of being in one’s home theater as opposed to the local Roxy—I can set the volume rather than suffer an onslaught.

I understand your point, and agree that modification of the playback may be desirable sometime. My point is, that should not be a function of the codec; as has been stated many times, the playback system has a volume knob, and various sound modes that can be implemented as needed. If someone screws it up, it should be the sound engineer that gets blamed.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

I'd be interested to hear your experiences on this if you care to share.

The source material that's perhaps the most critical would be concert films. So far, I've picked up the two current Chris Botti concerts, the Yes concert, John Mayer, and the Police concert, all on Blu.

All are reference material discs; and all are Dolby HD, except for Yes, which is DTS. The Mayer disc come with a PCM 2.0 track (as does the Police disc, I think; doing this from memory).

I doubt if most people would play these at reference volume in an apartment. They're all extraordinarily clean and well engineered - well above the standards of most films, I would say. I had no interest in dialing these back for volume or compression, and I heard no attenuation of sound on any of them, that I could detect. I've watched all of them before I was aware of the DRC issue - perhaps the engineers chose not to invoke that, or Dialnorm, but I can't detect either. (Dialnorm sometimes flashes up on my receiver, with varying values, but I don't know how it's done or if it's always detectable).

The point is, I'm going to have to revisit my library to see the differences. The truly amazing Casino Royale soundtrack, in PCM, makes some other films sound like they're playing underwater by comparison. But in all cases, I prefer leaving it at reference volume, and I'd say I watch a Blu-ray movie only two or three times a week, if that.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Dialnorm is a measure of average dialog loudness relative to 0dBFS. It usually measures -27 dB, but as we've seen, sometimes it changes. If you empirically find a volume "standard" for dialnormed movies, just as you did for non-dialnormed movies, you'd also be able to use that setting for all such movies. In that case, you might find that there will be less need to fiddle with the volume from movie to movie, since the gross variations will be reduced.

That's what concerns me - the lack of an identifiable baseline. I've seen broadcast dialnorm notifications, that show anywhere from -4 to -6db - and again, I had to ramp up Rise of the Lycans by +6db for clarity of sound, which was still middling at best (it wasn't terrible by any means; but definitely not reference grade, not even close).

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Let me also give an example. Air Force One was mixed in 7.1 SDDS with 5 screen channels. In order to put the movie onto DVD, these 5 had to be downmixed to 3 (L/C/R), and there were two ways to do it: a) Leave the reference levels alone, and apply peak limiting to cap the loud parts. b) pull down all the channels 4 dB to allow extra headroom for the downmix. Sony chose b), and set the dialnorm to 31, thus maintaining the original dialog reference levels. Yes, this is not a typical case, but it just serves to illustrate the mechanism and benefit.

This sounds like a truly engineered mix, quite unlike taking a scraper to the sound level across the board. I haven't seen Air Force One on Blu, so will take it on faith that it turned in a good audio performance.

I do find it odd that Dialnorm would be the mechanism for attenuation, but if it works, I don't see a problem.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Regardless of however consistent movies may be mixed, or whether we could live in a utopian non-dialnormed, THX calibrated world, or for that matter in a world where everything is dialnormed to perfection (a hypothetical—to be sure), or even one where Dynamic Volume works perfectly (also a hypothetical), none of these alternatives results in enjoying the playback of all our movies at exactly the same volume setting for all time. We choose to use the volume control. Add to our home entertainment menu all your favorite music and TV shows, and that just underscores the conclusion

I don't expect every film to sound the same - but I do expect that I won't be cranking my system up to compensate for an arbitrary alteration of the original track. Even more important, I do expect the sound engineer to leave alteration and processing selections, from volume to range compression, to the sound designer and the end user.

Please realize that I'm not a sound engineer, but as an audio aficiando, I've sought good sound for over three decades. I've also sought information about audio creation and playback, and it was almost by accident that I found out the implementation of crippling sound modes was negating much of the value of my playback equipment.

I've heard facile "can't you find your volume knob, dude" comments when I mention this - along with contempt for users who aren't aware of what's on the discs they purchase - and I'm really at the point where any audio compression technique that interferes with the original PCM mix set up by the engineer is just plain suspect.

Dolby can deliver, and has done so for me. In the hands of some thumb-fingered compression tech, it no longer delivers. Perhaps Dolby can release audio tracks similar to the SuperBit DVD's that came out back in the day; with a solemn promise to simply compress the original track, no games, no piledrivers to the mix, just straight decompress and enjoy.

Until then....

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Baiting? Hardly.
We have people right now thinking DialNorm impacts the sound quality.
People still seem to think that the sound is different between the 2 codecs and I'd bet you more than half of the respondents who chose DTS-MA are those people.

I can see it now - the double blind test, identical equipment right out of the box.

Same movie popped into both rigs, one in Dolby, one in DTS. The audience listens up.

Everybody like DTS. So a swarm of Dolby labcoats get busy, twiddling the knobs on the receiver, running around with SPL meters, shouting "hey, does WIDE mean OFF or what" while some guy answers, "who the heck knows, Sam took the manual with him to the restroom" and finally, "go on blu-ray dot com, somebody there probably already figured this thing out" until finally everything is set.

The DTS guys are sitting back, having a drink, one of them falls asleep...

The audience is watching all this, and finally, the retest. Both systems sound identical. Finally the audience is asked, "well, which system would you prefer?"

See the poll numbers for the results.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

You still don't get it. A lossless track, even with DRC set to on, is still a lossless track. The same information is present. Turning this setting off (one time, not every time - another point you seem to miss) eliminates any range compression, thus giving you the same result as PCM or DTS HDMA. However, there is nothing about DRC that makes anything un-lossless.

Shirley, you can't be serious?

OK, I'll play. Will the original PCM track sound identical to the DRC/Dialnorm played on the same, unaltered equipment?

Really?

Originally Posted by BStecke

Until then....As for DialNorm - yet ANOTHER point you keep bringing up despite many people telling you - isn't even as hard as changing a setting. Adjust the volume to compensate for the difference. Done. Neither one of these are beyond anyone's grasp. If changing a setting is hard for anyone, I wonder what kind of jobs these people are qualified to do in the real world.

Oh, I don't know. Manage dozens of people...support networks for the Fortune 500 and large government agencies...program stuff...just busywork.

Anyway, let me know about the PCM vs. DRC thing, after the sweat dries off.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

OK, I'll play. Will the original PCM track sound identical to the DRC/Dialnorm played on the same, unaltered equipment?

Really?

If DRC is not in use and the track is level matched, yeah.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

If DRC is not in use and the track is level matched, yeah.

So, who tells this to the general public? Do you think it's common knowledge?

My real question is, why is this necessary?

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

So, who tells this to the general public? Do you think it's common knowledge?

My real question is, why is this necessary?

DialNorm is used so that DRC works for those who want to use it. It's not forced on anyone as you seem to imply. Every piece of equipment comes with an owner's manual that explains what DRC does in pretty easy to understand terms. Even in the PS3 menu for example it explains, at the same point where you toggle it on and off, what exactly it does. I'm not saying it's common knowledge, but ignorance is no excuse.

As far as DialNorm, it's hardly even something to think about, as most people aren't going to be sitting around with an SPL meter to make sure they're listening at reference level. Most people are going to set the volume at the level they desire.

I can't find it, but I believe Jeff Kleist or another insider actually commented that TrueHD is actually presented at reference levels, and HDMA is pumped out a little hot.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

so you are saying that if my PS3 decodes it and sends the PCM with DRC on that I would get bit for bit the same values I would get in the PCM as if it was off?

I believe that this dynamic range compression is applied as part of the decoding process. If you have set DRC to off in your PS3, you will get the PCM output that went into the encoder. If you turn DRC on, you will get a PCM output that is dynamically compressed.

Is that what you are asking?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

DialNorm is used so that DRC works for those who want to use it. It's not forced on anyone as you seem to imply.

I'll explain this slowly.

It modifies the original PCM mix.

It doesn't tell me it's doing it.

I don't know how much it modifies it; that's kept secret.

I don't want it to do that.

I don't have a choice about it.

Originally Posted by BStecke

Every piece of equipment comes with an owner's manual that explains what DRC does in pretty easy to understand terms. Even in the PS3 menu for example it explains, at the same point where you toggle it on and off, what exactly it does. I'm not saying it's common knowledge, but ignorance is no excuse.

Sure it is. I don't own a PS3. It doesn't matter what I own. I see a label, it says, Lossless Audio. I play the content, and it's not Lossless Audio. Calling me ignorant (or whoever you're referring to, maybe it's everybody that voted DTS on this poll) won't make it Lossless Audio. Cranking up the volume and flipping switches, makes it pretty close to Lossless Audio.

It's definitely Lossless Audio when it's delivered without all that stuff glued to it, which I guess are features you like. I have no problem with you liking DRC, and Dialnorm, or anything else you'd like grinding the mirror finish off of your sound mix.

Originally Posted by BStecke

As far as DialNorm, it's hardly even something to think about, as most people aren't going to be sitting around with an SPL meter to make sure they're listening at reference level. Most people are going to set the volume at the level they desire.

Tell me: If I buy my own stereo, and put the volume where I want it, why does Dolby come along and screw around with the knobs, too? How is it their business where my volume levels are at?

They can go play with their own knobs, or yours, if you like that sort of thing. I can't see why that would be your preference, but I'm ignorant, and not capable of understanding everything that goes on nowadays.

Originally Posted by BStecke

I can't find it, but I believe Jeff Kleist or another insider actually commented that TrueHD is actually presented at reference levels, and HDMA is pumped out a little hot.

I've heard that too, and if true, it shouldn't be done.

Look, I don't have a problem with compressing a file and putting it on the disc, and then uncompressing it with zero loss. That's all I really want. Dolby won't do that, so I voted against them. If DTS is doing that, I have an issue; but I don't know that they're modifying anything, and rumors don't feed the bulldog.

I know Dolby is goofing around in there, and I'm fed up with it; your mileage may vary. Needless complexity vexes me. I deal with complex issues and technology all the time, and what I've found over the years is that overly complex technology has two roots: greed and control, or incompetent design and delivery.

I've even seen the most horrible result of these problems: incompetent design and delivery, yielding positive results for the greedy control freaks.

Dolby needs to go the straightforward, turn this on if you need it path. They haven't done it, haven't been straight about their product, and I prefer not to use it for those reasons. I wasted considerable time trying to figure out why Dolby sounded like crap; I have other things to do with my time than try to figure out how to disable features I don't need, and am not informed about.

They can do better, and if they do, I won't have a problem with them.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I can see it now - the double blind test, identical equipment right out of the box.

Same movie popped into both rigs, one in Dolby, one in DTS. The audience listens up.

Everybody like DTS. So a swarm of Dolby labcoats get busy, twiddling the knobs on the receiver, running around with SPL meters, shouting "hey, does WIDE mean OFF or what" while some guy answers, "who the heck knows, Sam took the manual with him to the restroom" and finally, "go on blu-ray dot com, somebody there probably already figured this thing out" until finally everything is set.

The DTS guys are sitting back, having a drink, one of them falls asleep...

The audience is watching all this, and finally, the retest. Both systems sound identical. Finally the audience is asked, "well, which system would you prefer?"

See the poll numbers for the results.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA.......

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!



I LOVE IT!!!

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I'll explain this slowly.

It modifies the original PCM mix.

It doesn't tell me it's doing it.

I don't know how much it modifies it; that's kept secret.

I don't want it to do that.

I don't have a choice about it.

I'll say this again, it's really easy. Turn it off.

Please explain how that's difficult. It fixes all of the problems you stated above. Changing a disc is literally more work than doing anything that I stated, yet your penchant for hyperbole seems to take over any logic.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

I'll say this again, it's really easy. Turn it off.

Please explain how that's difficult. It fixes all of the problems you stated above.

It turns off Dialnorm? Where? This is terrific news!

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

It turns off Dialnorm? Where? This is terrific news!

Jesus Christ. It's like talking to a wall.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

Jesus Christ. It's like talking to a wall.

Come on man, give up the secret. I'm taking notes and everything.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Come on man, give up the secret. I'm taking notes and everything.

I already told you how to solve the DialNorm "problem." I'm done with the conversation. It's obvious at this point that fact can't overcome you believing whatever you want to believe.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BStecke

I already told you how to solve the DialNorm "problem." I'm done with the conversation. It's obvious at this point that fact can't overcome you believing whatever you want to believe.

Do you think I don't believe you?

I understand what you're saying, and I know it's true. I just prefer to do things a different way. So do two thirds of the people who took this poll.

At this point, I've seen defenders and apologists for the Dolby regime question the intelligence of DTS adherents; attempt to raise straw men; and just recently, invoke holy spirits. I don't have that much emotion in it, and in a few minutes, I'm going to go play a Dolby HD movie, and quite likely, enjoy it very much.

Just remember: you can put a saddle on a porcupine, pour gasoline on his rear end and set fire to it, and watch it pass a racehorse; you're still going to have a hard time hiring a jockey to take it into the Kentucky Derby.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I can see it now - the double blind test, identical equipment right out of the box.

Same movie popped into both rigs, one in Dolby, one in DTS. The audience listens up.

Everybody like DTS. So a swarm of Dolby labcoats get busy, twiddling the knobs on the receiver, running around with SPL meters, shouting "hey, does WIDE mean OFF or what" while some guy answers, "who the heck knows, Sam took the manual with him to the restroom" and finally, "go on blu-ray dot com, somebody there probably already figured this thing out" until finally everything is set.

The DTS guys are sitting back, having a drink, one of them falls asleep...

The audience is watching all this, and finally, the retest. Both systems sound identical. Finally the audience is asked, "well, which system would you prefer?"

See the poll numbers for the results.

LMFAO! *passes out from laughing*

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
I can see it now - the double blind test, identical equipment right out of the box.

Same movie popped into both rigs, one in Dolby, one in DTS. The audience listens up.

Everybody like DTS. So a swarm of Dolby labcoats get busy, twiddling the knobs on the receiver, running around with SPL meters, shouting "hey, does WIDE mean OFF or what" while some guy answers, "who the heck knows, Sam took the manual with him to the restroom" and finally, "go on blu-ray dot com, somebody there probably already figured this thing out" until finally everything is set.

The DTS guys are sitting back, having a drink, one of them falls asleep...

The audience is watching all this, and finally, the retest. Both systems sound identical. Finally the audience is asked, "well, which system would you prefer?"

See the poll numbers for the results.

[PeterTHX]

Except they have done these tests, and audiences (audiophiles mind you) could not reliably tell the difference between sources.


Some people are just easily amused I guess.