Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

Yeah, but the next highest is the "Don't care either way". So, in comparison, the DTS vote is quite high. People either want it - or have no problem if it is switched to DTS HD exclusively. Pretty good numbers.

Exactly. I was just joking around ;0


moving back up, 60.41%

[bluseminole]

Originally Posted by trans22

what is it with everybody making excuses when a DTS track blows away a TRUEHD track, look at the poll it's fairly obvious most people think DTS is better, just compare the australian TRUEHD mix of the INCREDIBLE HULK to the DTS mix from the us/uk disc there's simply no comparison, the DTS mix is absolutely devasting, incredible bass and clarity that the truehd mix simply can't compare to.

This is the type of post that irritates me. Blu-Dog, though I disagree with his position, at least raises valid points: you can complain about Dialnorm; you can complain about the implementation of DRC; hell, you can complain about Dolby's business ethics for all I care--they're valid points that, though I might not agree they are harmful to the codec, I can at least see how they would irritate some end users.

But the misconception that a DTS track blows away a TrueHD track, every time--which is what your generalization implies--is absolutely wrong. No credence can be given to any type of brash generalization, and this is no exception. I have the utmost respect for all of the pro-DTS and/or anti-Dolby posters here who can articulate their points clearly, respectfully, and intelligently, but to state flat out that one lossless codec blows another out of the water is inaccurate. If this is the way you perceive it--if the difference is that drastic--you need to check your equipment, because something isn't right. If you find DRC is enabled on Dolby, then turn it off, and come back here with a legitimate complaint about Dolby's un-user-friendliness. But for the love of God, don't generalize.

NOTE: I don't know if you realize, but you hit the nail on the head: the difference is in the mix, not the codec.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Then why did reflashing the DSPs fix it. I don't remember having to replace any ICs on my unit.

In fairness, I think what Onkyo did was a workaround the faulty IC. The code had to be the same when it was sent out on ALL first generation receivers. The flaw with the Onkyo's (can't remember the other, was it Pioneer) was in the IC's.

As we've discussed all through this thread CraigW, the First generations 1.3 HDMI Onkyo's are flawed in design structure. Everything from handshake issues with DD+ with some HD DVD players to AUTO default on DRC when it's been turned off previously to the ES extensions missing from the DTSMA stream. You can't really blame DTSMA or Dolby for all those faults. The fact is if the codec inplementation was wrong, it would have affected all receivers.

We really have to separate hardware and codec issues.

In fact, my 705 ticks me off sometimes, i'm seriously thinking about changing to a more modern receiver that doesn't exhibit the quirks of this unit.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by bluseminole

But the misconception that a DTS track blows away a TrueHD track, every time--which is what your generalization implies--is absolutely wrong. No credence can be given to any type of brash generalization, and this is no exception. I have the utmost respect for all of the pro-DTS and/or anti-Dolby posters here who can articulate their points clearly, respectfully, and intelligently, but to state flat out that one lossless codec blows another out of the water is inaccurate. If this is the way you perceive it--if the difference is that drastic--you need to check your equipment, because something isn't right. If you find DRC is enabled on Dolby, then turn it off, and come back here with a legitimate complaint about Dolby's un-user-friendliness. But for the love of God, don't generalize.

While I can appreciate that someone may detect a slight sonic difference. To say it "blows it away", well i've got to agree with you on that. There's no way it will blow the TRUEHD track away unless somebody does something wrong with the encoding.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by trans22

what is it with everybody making excuses when a DTS track blows away a TRUEHD track, look at the poll it's fairly obvious most people think DTS is better, just compare the australian TRUEHD mix of the INCREDIBLE HULK to the DTS mix from the us/uk disc there's simply no comparison, the DTS mix is absolutely devasting, incredible bass and clarity that the truehd mix simply can't compare to.

really, you are the first person i have heard say the dts track on the incredible hulk is better than the true hd. I suspect you havent compared or even heard both for yourself

[trans22]

Originally Posted by cembros

really, you are the first person i have heard say the dts track on the incredible hulk is better than the true hd. I suspect you havent compared or even heard both for yourself

I'm an englishman and have relatives in australia, when i last visited them i picked up a few australian blu-rays, one of these titles was THE INCREDIBLE HULK which is paramount pictures TRUEHD upon returning home i played the disc and was pretty happy with it but i noticed a few problems with some quiet dialogue in certain scenes so i decide to rent the UK disc which has DTS to see if these dialogue problems where on the uk disc, unfortunately they were but there is big differences between the 2 tracks, the DTS is about 6db louder but even after levelling the DTS still sounds crisper with more dynamic range, i have drc switched off so my question is why?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by davcole

In fairness, I think what Onkyo did was a workaround the faulty IC. The code had to be the same when it was sent out on ALL first generation receivers. The flaw with the Onkyo's (can't remember the other, was it Pioneer) was in the IC's.

As we've discussed all through this thread CraigW, the First generations 1.3 HDMI Onkyo's are flawed in design structure. Everything from handshake issues with DD+ with some HD DVD players to AUTO default on DRC when it's been turned off previously to the ES extensions missing from the DTSMA stream. You can't really blame DTSMA or Dolby for all those faults. The fact is if the codec inplementation was wrong, it would have affected all receivers.

We really have to separate hardware and codec issues.

In fact, my 705 ticks me off sometimes, i'm seriously thinking about changing to a more modern receiver that doesn't exhibit the quirks of this unit.

Again I don't entirely buy it. The original PS3 dts Limited decoder and the branding now of dts-MA Essential decoders are proof that there are different revs of the decoder in the wild. Remember Onkyo was a good 3-to-4 months ahead of the competition in the 'AVR w/ HD codecs' market. Again the dts code on modern AVRs is not hardwired, it is part of the overall embedded design that can be updated if needed. Regardless, the dts system had a flaw that should have been found before it was released.

As far as the extensions, the ES Extension is not missing from the stream since I know people using the same player with other AVRs and it properly identifies the ES Extension. The issue is that the earlier revs of the Onkyo dts decoder do not properly handle it. I don't know if it is an issue with their newer generations.

This is the first I have heard of Onkyo having a faulty HDMI 1.3 design on their earlier models. I have a 1.3 system all the way around and I don't have issues with it.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by trans22

I'm an englishman and have relatives in australia, when i last visited them i picked up a few australian blu-rays, one of these titles was THE INCREDIBLE HULK which is paramount pictures TRUEHD upon returning home i played the disc and was pretty happy with it but i noticed a few problems with some quiet dialogue in certain scenes so i decide to rent the UK disc which has DTS to see if these dialogue problems where on the uk disc, unfortunately they were but there is big differences between the 2 tracks, the DTS is about 6db louder but even after levelling the DTS still sounds crisper with more dynamic range, i have drc switched off so my question is why?

Different regions, different distributors could very well mean the masters used were not of the same quality.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by CraigW

As far as the extensions, the ES Extension is not missing from the stream since I know people using the same player with other AVRs and it properly identifies the ES Extension. The issue is that the earlier revs of the Onkyo dts decoder do not properly handle it. I don't know if it is an issue with their newer generations.

Sorry, meant to state recognized in the stream.

[bluseminole]

Originally Posted by trans22

I'm an englishman and have relatives in australia, when i last visited them i picked up a few australian blu-rays, one of these titles was THE INCREDIBLE HULK which is paramount pictures TRUEHD upon returning home i played the disc and was pretty happy with it but i noticed a few problems with some quiet dialogue in certain scenes so i decide to rent the UK disc which has DTS to see if these dialogue problems where on the uk disc, unfortunately they were but there is big differences between the 2 tracks, the DTS is about 6db louder but even after levelling the DTS still sounds crisper with more dynamic range, i have drc switched off so my question is why?

The mixes and/or masters are not identical.

EDIT: This is a likely reason; no I don't have insider information about this. Just thought I should clarify that point .

[cembros]

Originally Posted by trans22

I'm an englishman and have relatives in australia, when i last visited them i picked up a few australian blu-rays, one of these titles was THE INCREDIBLE HULK which is paramount pictures TRUEHD upon returning home i played the disc and was pretty happy with it but i noticed a few problems with some quiet dialogue in certain scenes so i decide to rent the UK disc which has DTS to see if these dialogue problems where on the uk disc, unfortunately they were but there is big differences between the 2 tracks, the DTS is about 6db louder but even after levelling the DTS still sounds crisper with more dynamic range, i have drc switched off so my question is why?

im not sure about this, i have heard many others disagree with your opinion, i guess i would have to hear for myself

[davcole]

It would be interesting to hear the TRUEHD version of THE INCREDIBLE HULK. Just for comparison's sake. The only film i've heard in both lossless formats is THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by davcole

It would be interesting to hear the TRUEHD version of THE INCREDIBLE HULK. Just for comparison's sake. The only film i've heard in both lossless formats is THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM.

and what is your opinion of the bourne tracks

[Strannix136]

Originally Posted by cembros

dont care what they use so long as its lossless

So long as my player can decode it, and transfer it via discreet 5.1 outputs...

[cembros]

Originally Posted by Strannix136

So long as my player can decode it, and transfer it via discreet 5.1 outputs...

well what player do u have

[Strannix136]

I'm stuck with the Sony BDP-S300 for awhile.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by Strannix136

I'm stuck with the Sony BDP-S300 for awhile.

so true hd and pcm it is for you then my friend

[Strannix136]

Originally Posted by cembros

so true hd and pcm it is for you then my friend

I'm surprised that they delivered the Tru-HD decoding... I'll move up eventually.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by Strannix136

I'm surprised that they delivered the Tru-HD decoding... I'll move up eventually.

ya when i first got into blu ray about a year and a half ago i bought the s300 but returned it for a ps3 due to slow loading times and the lack of support for hd audio. My parents still have one though, i hate using it as its slow and sometimes skips during movies, updated the firmware a couple of months ago

[davcole]

Originally Posted by cembros

and what is your opinion of the bourne tracks

Pretty much the same. Of course I think my BH 200 is a lesser HD DVD player than it is a BD player. I mentioned a little of this earlier in the thread but I bitstream the TRUEHD from the Bourne disc to my receiver. The problem with the HD DVD is that it's encoded with the DRC ON instead off auto so if the receiver is set to AUTO (that's the default), you get the compressed, less dynamic of the soundtrack. However when I would turn OFF on the DRC, it came to life. However on the TRUEHD track, it also had 3 repeatable drop outs. I don't have that problem with the BD's, DTSMA track.

Both tracks sounded similar. I've always said, to me DTSMA sounds a bit smoother and that still held up during this listen. I'm not sure I heard any more detail from one disc to the other. The only scenes where it may have sounded a bit different were the scenes where Bourne is chasing Desh through the marketplace in Tangier. Maybe I heard just the slightest more background detail on the BD. Again, as I said, the BH 200 is better as a BD player than as a HD DVD player. That may be the difference.