Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[deado]

The question they should be asking us is not whether they should use DTS-HD or stick with TrueHD, but whether they should use REAL 24-bit tracks and/or 7.1 sound. Every Sony TrueHD track is a 16-bit track in a 24-bit container, just like Warner's. There are only 16-bits of information, the rest is superfluous zero bytes.

That's why Sony TrueHD tracks hover in the 1000's-2000s kbps like Warner's. Highdefdigest say that Sony tracks are 24-bit but they are not. Your receiver and/or OSD may say 24-bit, but that's only the container size, not the actual information.

Studios using REAL 24-bit tracks are Universal, Lionsgate, Fox, Disney, Paramount.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by deado

The question they should be asking us is not whether they should use DTS-HD or stick with TrueHD, but whether they should use REAL 24-bit tracks and/or 7.1 sound. Every Sony TrueHD track is a 16-bit track in a 24-bit container, just like Warner's. There are only 16-bits of information, the rest is superfluous zero bytes.

That's why Sony TrueHD tracks hover in the 1000's-2000s kbps like Warner's. Highdefdigest say that Sony tracks are 24-bit but they are not. Your receiver and/or OSD may say 24-bit, but that's only the container size, not the actual information.

Studios using REAL 24-bit tracks are Universal, Lionsgate, Fox, Disney, Paramount.

Very good point deado.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by deado

The question they should be asking us is not whether they should use DTS-HD or stick with TrueHD, but whether they should use REAL 24-bit tracks and/or 7.1 sound. Every Sony TrueHD track is a 16-bit track in a 24-bit container, just like Warner's. There are only 16-bits of information, the rest is superfluous zero bytes.

That's why Sony TrueHD tracks hover in the 1000's-2000s kbps like Warner's. Highdefdigest say that Sony tracks are 24-bit but they are not. Your receiver and/or OSD may say 24-bit, but that's only the container size, not the actual information.

Studios using REAL 24-bit tracks are Universal, Lionsgate, Fox, Disney, Paramount.

I never knew that. i always thought sonys 24bit tracks were 24bit. heck i didn't even know you could actually fake a 24bit track!

Damn sony, i never considered you to be a half assed studio. leave that to warner

[cembros]

Originally Posted by deado

The question they should be asking us is not whether they should use DTS-HD or stick with TrueHD, but whether they should use REAL 24-bit tracks and/or 7.1 sound. Every Sony TrueHD track is a 16-bit track in a 24-bit container, just like Warner's. There are only 16-bits of information, the rest is superfluous zero bytes.

That's why Sony TrueHD tracks hover in the 1000's-2000s kbps like Warner's. Highdefdigest say that Sony tracks are 24-bit but they are not. Your receiver and/or OSD may say 24-bit, but that's only the container size, not the actual information.

Studios using REAL 24-bit tracks are Universal, Lionsgate, Fox, Disney, Paramount.

where are you getting that information

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by cembros

where are you getting that information

+1

I don't think that's common knowledge, what deado posted. I think we should be given the courtesy of having some links to the source of that information. It's not that we don't believe deado's comments which may very well be true. However, I want a second opinion before I consider accepting such a statement.

[Scorxpion]

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/St...le&Audio=24bit

Every body here confess including me 30 days of night indeed does include outstanding lossless sound ,but what about others from sony,even Underworld rise of Lycans is listed as 24 bit you will always have to push your volume knob on the receiver about +5db in order to be equivalent to a DTSHD master audio.

As you notice from this list except some errors out of my control,DTSHD master audio is better giving up the master PCM as the director intended.

You can Notice FOX,MGM,DISNEY,Universal and Lionsgate most of their titles are in 24bit.

Anyone care to comment and give us now the excuses from Studio like Sony or Warner Bros

[Jeff Kleist]

The question they should be asking us is not whether they should use DTS-HD or stick with TrueHD, but whether they should use REAL 24-bit tracks and/or 7.1 sound. Every Sony TrueHD track is a 16-bit track in a 24-bit container, just like Warner's. There are only 16-bits of information, the rest is superfluous zero bytes.

Assuming you're correct, keep this in mind:

I can encode 44/16 audio to 192/24 right now in the house using common audio tools, and so can you. But it still doesn't make it 192/24 in terms of quality. The only evidence there is that some kind of upsampling was done.

Anything that's been mastered digitally in the audio realm (most films of the last 20ish years give or take a few), with rare exception was done at 44/16, and usually the audio was captured at 44/16 on set/scoring stage as well, so upsampling to 24bit doesn't do anything for you. There's certainly marketing value in the numbers as you've just shown, but why spend the money to process the audio for no benefit? The masters are what they are, and unlike going back to an analog source, they're not going to benefit from the process in the slightest.

Most films made after or around 2006-ish and after have moved up to 24-bit ,but there are still tens of thousands of 16-bit elements out there like sound effects that are in use. Warner does often use 16-bit because they want to save space and pile more dub tracks onto the disc, but I personally find it hard to believe that Dark Knight wasn't mastered 24.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by deado

The question they should be asking us is not whether they should use DTS-HD or stick with TrueHD, but whether they should use REAL 24-bit tracks and/or 7.1 sound. Every Sony TrueHD track is a 16-bit track in a 24-bit container, just like Warner's. There are only 16-bits of information, the rest is superfluous zero bytes.

That's why Sony TrueHD tracks hover in the 1000's-2000s kbps like Warner's. Highdefdigest say that Sony tracks are 24-bit but they are not. Your receiver and/or OSD may say 24-bit, but that's only the container size, not the actual information.

Studios using REAL 24-bit tracks are Universal, Lionsgate, Fox, Disney, Paramount.

Uhhh, I am not sure that's correct. I've seen Sony's titles hover in the 3000's-4000's and higher. There are select titles that are 16-20 Bit titles though that are as low as WB's, but that's probably due to the original master being that way.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/St...le&Audio=24bit

Every body here confess including me 30 days of night indeed does include outstanding lossless sound ,but what about others from sony,even Underworld rise of Lycans is listed as 24 bit you will always have to push your volume knob on the receiver about +5db in order to be equivalent to a DTSHD master audio.

As you notice from this list except some errors out of my control,DTSHD master audio is better giving up the master PCM as the director intended.

You can Notice FOX,MGM,DISNEY,Universal and Lionsgate most of their titles are in 24bit.

Anyone care to comment and give us now the excuses from Studio like Sony or Warner Bros

That would mean the DTS tracks are about 5db louder than reference level. Sony is doing their TrueHD tracks at the correct level and have gone on record to say that they're avoiding the DialNorm function. If you're saying you're having to turn up the volume to match DTS-HD MA, then DTS-HD MA is louder than it should be (which can introduce distortion and clipping).

[Scorxpion]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

That would mean the DTS tracks are about 5db louder than reference level. Sony is doing their TrueHD tracks at the correct level and have gone on record to say that they're avoiding the DialNorm function. If you're saying you're having to turn up the volume to match DTS-HD MA, then DTS-HD MA is louder than it should be (which can introduce distortion and clipping).

this is not true i'm not facing Distortion or clipping during listening to DTSHD master audio in contrary i'm enjoying it,but you are always defending TrueHD,even me i defend it and said its equivalent.I'm sure Sony is applying dialnorm in rise of lycans and i will prove it for you.Some whispering moments during the feature is barely to understand what they are saying so i have make it louder in order to hear it very well even during the action sequences i found it more suitable and enjoyable and not like before when i have the volume knob as where it is leveled during another codec(DTSHD master Audio).

Maybe during listening to DolbyTrueHD i'm deaf and DTSHD master audio is suitable for me.In general this is not my case and i know very well listening and comparing one codec to another codec can be differentiate and you have to adjust it to be comfortable with.In Master Audio i'm not facing this issue you have one setup and everything can go with except Dolby TrueHD always you should be very carefully adjusting in order to hear the master as intended.

[trans22]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

this is not true i'm not facing Distortion or clipping during listening to DTSHD master audio in contrary i'm enjoying it,but you are always defending TrueHD,even me i defend it and said its equivalent.I'm sure Sony is applying dialnorm in rise of lycans and i will prove it for you.Some whispering moments during the feature is barely to understand what they are saying so i have make it louder in order to hear it very well even during the action sequences i found it more suitable and enjoyable and not like before when i have the volume knob as where it is leveled during another codec(DTSHD master Audio).

Maybe during listening to DolbyTrueHD i'm deaf and DTSHD master audio is suitable for me.In general this is not my case and i know very well listening and comparing one codec to another codec can be differentiate and you have to adjust it to be comfortable with.In Master Audio i'm not facing this issue you have one setup and everything can go with except Dolby TrueHD always you should be very carefully adjusting in order to hear the master as intended.

come on .. just admit it, you'll be glad to see the back of TRUEHD

[trans22]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

That would mean the DTS tracks are about 5db louder than reference level. Sony is doing their TrueHD tracks at the correct level and have gone on record to say that they're avoiding the DialNorm function. If you're saying you're having to turn up the volume to match DTS-HD MA, then DTS-HD MA is louder than it should be (which can introduce distortion and clipping).

DTS-HD MA is recorded at the master level, TRUE HD is recorded quietly, just listen to the TRUEHD track on '300' compared to the PCM track.

[Scorxpion]

Originally Posted by trans22

come on .. just admit it, you'll be glad to see the back of TRUEHD

I'll be very glad if Sony will begin using DTSHD master audio like FOX ,Disney and Universal

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

this is not true i'm not facing Distortion or clipping during listening to DTSHD master audio in contrary i'm enjoying it,but you are always defending TrueHD,even me i defend it and said its equivalent.I'm sure Sony is applying dialnorm in rise of lycans and i will prove it for you.Some whispering moments during the feature is barely to understand what they are saying so i have make it louder in order to hear it very well even during the action sequences i found it more suitable and enjoyable and not like before when i have the volume knob as where it is leveled during another codec(DTSHD master Audio).

Maybe during listening to DolbyTrueHD i'm deaf and DTSHD master audio is suitable for me.In general this is not my case and i know very well listening and comparing one codec to another codec can be differentiate and you have to adjust it to be comfortable with.In Master Audio i'm not facing this issue you have one setup and everything can go with except Dolby TrueHD always you should be very carefully adjusting in order to hear the master as intended.

Sorry, Scorxpion, but you're just a bit off base with all of that. I would never dispute what you say you hear. It's the causes that I question.

When dialnorm is applied by the decoder, the overall playback volume affecting all channels is lowered by the offset, usually 4db. So, dialog will be a little lower, whispers may not be easy to hear anymore, and explosions won't be quite as loud. Let's say an AVR volume of -20db is comfortable for you when listening to a PCM or DTS version of a movie soundtrack. You would need to up your AVR volume to -16db when listening to the exact same soundtrack encoded using Dolby with a 4db dialnorm offset. Dialog, whispers, and explosions would all then sound exactly the same as the -20db playback level with the PCM and DTS versions.

As for playback levels being matched for all DTS releases and all over the map for TrueHD discs, I have a couple of comments:

First, sorry, but that's pretty much fantasy. If the same soundtracks are encoded both ways and the Dolby encodes have the standard -27 dialnorm value, then they will come out exactly 4db lower than the DTS encodes every time. If you don't have to ride levels on DTS versions, then you don't have to ride levels on Dolby ones either. You know where both are going to show up on your AVR dial.

Second, there would only be variations with Dolby if the encodes use dialnorm values other than -27. And, that would be a good thing! That's the whole point of dialnorm to begin with. In essence, you are claiming that studios who use DTS have their movies mixed to a perfect -27 dialnorm value all of the time. Dialog hits at the right level and you never have to adjust your volume level at the start of a DTS release. That strikes me as a rather dubious claim. In my experience, dialog levels and dynamic range vary from movie to movie, no matter how they are encoded. For your observations to be true, studios using dts-MA would have to start with perfectly level matched soundtracks while those using TrueHD would have to start with soundtracks where the levels vary. Does that seem likely?

Now, when levels vary and dialnorm is properly executed (meaning real values other than the default -27 are used), Dolby decoders will level off the differences and present the home listener with a consistent dialog level regardless of how the movie was mixed.

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't appear that studios/audio engineers pay much attention to the actual average dialog of a program and they just leave dialnorm set to -27. If so, dialnorm doesn't accomplish anything. But, that also means Dolby tracks have no more or less variation in levels than DTS or PCM tracks.


btw, I realize there's a lot of technical stuff in this post. But, the technical details explain what dialnorm does and does not do, which is rather important given what's being said about it in this thread.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by trans22

DTS-HD MA is recorded at the master level, TRUE HD is recorded quietly, just listen to the TRUEHD track on '300' compared to the PCM track.

Yes... as it's been stated many, many times before, Warner Brothers DialNorms their tracks... what's your point?

Go back and reread what I said. If Sony's Dolby TrueHD tracks sound quieter than DTS-HD MA and Sony's tracks are at reference level, that would mean DTS-HD MA tracks are mixed 5db louder than they should be (which I don't think they are).

Also, as BIslander said, DialNorm doesn't JUST effect Dialogue. ALL channels are changed. So Scorxpion if you're hearing a difference in volume level, it is more than likely the mix.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Sorry, Scorxpion, but you're just a bit off base with all of that. I would never dispute what you say you hear. It's the causes that I question.

When dialnorm is applied by the decoder, the overall playback volume affecting all channels is lowered by the offset, usually 4db. So, dialog will be a little lower, whispers may not be easy to hear anymore, and explosions won't be quite as loud. Let's say an AVR volume of -20db is comfortable for you when listening to a PCM or DTS version of a movie soundtrack. You would need to up your AVR volume to -16db when listening to the exact same soundtrack encoded using Dolby with a 4db dialnorm offset. Dialog, whispers, and explosions would all then sound exactly the same as the -20db playback level with the PCM and DTS versions.

As for playback levels being matched for all DTS releases and all over the map for TrueHD discs, I have a couple of comments:

First, sorry, but that's pretty much fantasy. If the same soundtracks are encoded both ways and the Dolby encodes have the standard -27 dialnorm value, then they will come out exactly 4db lower than the DTS encodes every time. If you don't have to ride levels on DTS versions, then you don't have to ride levels on Dolby ones either. You know where both are going to show up on your AVR dial.

Second, there would only be variations with Dolby if the encodes use dialnorm values other than -27. And, that would be a good thing! That's the whole point of dialnorm to begin with. In essence, you are claiming that studios who use DTS have their movies mixed to a perfect -27 dialnorm value all of the time. Dialog hits at the right level and you never have to adjust your volume level at the start of a DTS release. That strikes me as a rather dubious claim. In my experience, dialog levels and dynamic range vary from movie to movie, no matter how they are encoded. For your observations to be true, studios using dts-MA would have to start with perfectly level matched soundtracks while those using TrueHD would have to start with soundtracks where the levels vary. Does that seem likely?

Now, when levels vary and dialnorm is properly executed (meaning real values other than the default -27 are used), Dolby decoders will level off the differences and present the home listener with a consistent dialog level regardless of how the movie was mixed.

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't appear that studios/audio engineers pay much attention to the actual average dialog of a program and they just leave dialnorm set to -27. If so, dialnorm doesn't accomplish anything. But, that also means Dolby tracks have no more or less variation in levels than DTS or PCM tracks.


btw, I realize there's a lot of technical stuff in this post. But, the technical details explain what dialnorm does and does not do, which is rather important given what's being said about it in this thread.

Exactly, take Valkyrie or Mr. Brooks for instance. Both those tracks varry in level so much that the loud scenes are almost TOO loud and the quiet scenes are almost too quiet to make out the dialogue. Compare that to Transformers and you'll see there's not a line of dialogue you can't understand in Transformers. Does that mean I say "Dolby TrueHD sounds better and DTS-HD MA varries too much?" No, I'd say the mix is better on Transformers than it is on the other 2 movies I mentioned.

[RebelJeeper]

I like the DTS option personally...seems to be more impressive to me. But what do I know?

[davcole]

Originally Posted by deado

That's why Sony TrueHD tracks hover in the 1000's-2000s kbps like Warner's. Highdefdigest say that Sony tracks are 24-bit but they are not. Your receiver and/or OSD may say 24-bit, but that's only the container size, not the actual information.

Studios using REAL 24-bit tracks are Universal, Lionsgate, Fox, Disney, Paramount.

That's one of the reasons I feel that Sony is considering DTSMA. Bandwidth-wise they don't have to account for a seperate legacy track, whereas with TRUEHD they do. Sony is the one company that does 2 and sometimes 3 lossless tracks on their releases. If you add an accompaning legacy track, you can add up to 1.9mbs for 3 legacy tracks on top of your TRUEHD track.

I'm almost sure if Sony does the switch to DTSMA that you'll start consistently seeing 24bit tracks (for those films with that bitdepth).

[plm999]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

They also benefit from the DD companion track @640kbps.

DD@640 is a big improvement over DD@448, close to DTS as it existed on DVD (at ~750Kbps), but it lacks significantly compared to DTS at the full 1.5 Mbps. DD@640 just doesn't create as distinct of a sound image. With DD at any rate I can close my eyes and easily point to each sound source. With DTS @ 1.5M the speakers in my room really do disappear. I can't wait until I can upgrade my pre/pro to get lossless, problem is I'll have to upgrade my display to one with HDMI as well. It's only $$$ right?

[deado]

Originally Posted by cembros

where are you getting that information

I use eac3to to convert lossless tracks to FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) so I can get full bit-depth and sample rate on my PC (because software players downsample to 48/16).

eac3to tells you everything about the streams on the disc, most specifically the audio. It tells you what it does in the log during the conversion. Here is the relevant parts of the log for The House Bunny: (just an example):

Streams on the disc:

M2TS, 1 video track, 7 audio tracks, 17 subtitle tracks, 1:56:52, 24p /1.001
1: Chapters, 16 chapters
2: h264/AVC, 1080p24 /1.001 (16:9)
3: TrueHD/AC3, English, 5.1 channels, 48khz
(embedded: AC3, 5.1 channels, 448kbps, 48khz, dialnorm: -29dB)
4: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 192kbps, 48khz, dialnorm: -25dB
5: TrueHD/AC3, Italian, 5.1 channels, 48khz
(embedded: AC3, 5.1 channels, 448kbps, 48khz, dialnorm: -30dB)
6: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 192kbps, 48khz, dialnorm: -29dB
7: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 192kbps, 48khz
8: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 192kbps, 48khz, dialnorm: -29dB
9: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 192kbps, 48khz

Then during conversion:

[a03] Extracting audio track number 3...
[a03] Extracting TrueHD stream...
[a03] Decoding with libav/ffmpeg...
[a03] Encoding FLAC with libFlac...
[a03] The original audio track has a constant bit depth of 16 bits.
[a03] Superfluous zero bytes detected, will be stripped in 2nd pass.
[a03] Starting 2nd pass...
[a03] Decoding FLAC...
[a03] Reducing depth from 24 to 16 bits...
[a03] Encoding FLAC with libFlac...
[a03] Creating file "H:\The House Bunny\1_3_audio.flac"...
[a03] The processed audio track has a constant bit depth of 16 bits.

What this means is that eac3to is only detecting 16-bits of information in the TrueHD container that contain any info... the rest of the container contains nothing. The log says the same thing for The Dark Knight, and every recent Warner title I've tried. The log also says the same thing for every other Sony title I've tried recently too (Seven Pounds, You Don't Mess with the Zohan, Quarantine), and many more.

I shouldn't have said *every* Sony track as I can't confirm that, but it appears to me as though a majority are only 16-bit. If they were old films that's to be expected, however these examples are not old films.


Real 24-bit tracks, in comparison, say this during conversion:

[a03] The original audio track has a constant bit depth of 24 bits.

From my testing, only Sony and Warner are putting 16-bit tracks in 24-bit containers, other studios which have 16-bit tracks put them in 16-bit containers.

And when I play back the .mkv files with the FLAC audio, ReClock (which displays exactly what is being output on my sound card via WASAPI Exclusive mode), says 48/16 for the Warner tracks, and 48/24 for the real 24-bit tracks.