Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

No, it isn't. [Insert "Argument Clinic" skit here]

Every one of those uncounted millions also have non-Dolby source material, mostly music, and we don't hear the masses crying out in agony over the lack of DRC-mangled audio.



Well, Jazz the Transformer thought squishing the kid's parents was an option, too.

I believe this is my third time using this example... I USE DRC LATE AT NIGHT WHEN OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE ARE SLEEPING. It's truly not hard to understand...

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I hate people fiddling with the volume, so I connected the volume knob to a 100,000 volt coil. So I'd advise not messing with it.

Sometimes Dialnorm ticks me off so bad I forget about that, and start twiddling the knob, you see the problem. Just another reason I prefer DTS.

So you're saying the volume is the same for ALL video games, satalite/cable and music sources?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Specifically the third option. Those favoring staying with Dolby seem to see indifference as being a choice to keep things as they are. Those favoring DTS see it as a reason that DTS should be adopted, because those voters won't care anyways. The key is what does Sony think about those voters' opinions?

I went with don't care. But I agree with the DTS guys interpretation. I voted don't care because I don't. I see it as a vote with what ever side is winning with the two. If PM is trying to find out if there is an issue with the move, then no I don't have an issue with it if that is what Sony wants to do, on the other hand if Sony would rather stick with DTHD then I don't have an issue with that as well. I am thinking that if Sony had an issue with going DTS MA or sticking with DTHD then they would have never asked. So what ever chriteria they use (are they looking for more popular or a min %) I think there is only two ways of counting these votes. Either they are completely dismissed (no care = no say)
(DTS 84%; DTHD 13%) or they go with the majority (DTS 89%; DTHD 10%)

[Anthony P]

I believe this is my third time using this example... I USE DRC LATE AT NIGHT WHEN OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE ARE SLEEPING. It's truly not hard to understand...

yes it is, because

1) most receivers/devices (I have not seen all of them so I can't say it is all of them) can do DRC even if it is not encoded in the stream

2) if you don't care about audio (DRC kills the original so you obviously value something more then the AQ) then why even discuss the topic. If your receiver needs DRC in the encode you can always use the lossy one, what is the difference with A) no where near what the audio should be and B) no where near where the audio should be.

3) the assumption is that it is "metadata" and so does not matter, I program for a living and I know too many programmers to believe such guaranties given by people who did not do that job.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

yes it is, because

1) most receivers/devices (I have not seen all of them so I can't say it is all of them) can do DRC even if it is not encoded in the stream

2) if you don't care about audio (DRC kills the original so you obviously value something more then the AQ) then why even discuss the topic. If your receiver needs DRC in the encode you can always use the lossy one, what is the difference with A) no where near what the audio should be and B) no where near where the audio should be.

3) the assumption is that it is "metadata" and so does not matter, I program for a living and I know too many programmers to believe such guaranties given by people who did not do that job.

1) if it's Dolby, you can use DRC

2) I don't know how many of you can listen at a regular volume in the middle of the night but I can't. So it's already being altered enough by me turning down the volume every time something loud comes on. This way I can just use DRC without having to continuously adjust the volume.

3) I have no idea where you're going with this... Actually I don't understand where most of your post is going in general. My point was simply that you can't use DRC with DTS (as many people have pointed out here). That's a problem for me if I try watching something late at night so I was talking about the bennifit of using DRC.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

yes it is, because

1) most receivers/devices (I have not seen all of them so I can't say it is all of them) can do DRC even if it is not encoded in the stream

The majority do not, that's why Dolby is introducing Dolby Volume and THX and Audyssey has their new mode. My receiver is nearly 2 years old, and pretty darn high-end and I have no control over non-Dolby material.

2) if you don't care about audio (DRC kills the original so you obviously value something more then the AQ) then why even discuss the topic. If your receiver needs DRC in the encode you can always use the lossy one, what is the difference with A) no where near what the audio should be and B) no where near where the audio should be.

DRC impacts dynamic range, not the overall clarity or surround field (you can still hear a difference between lossy & lossless). Of course you don't use it all the time but I use it often enough to want it available for all programming.

3) the assumption is that it is "metadata" and so does not matter, I program for a living and I know too many programmers to believe such guaranties given by people who did not do that job.

Not even sure what that means.

[trans22]

come on peter, i asked you if SONY release future blu-rays with DTS would you buy them ?

[georgeybanez]

PCM should be used at all times. Seriously drop true hd and dts and put everything in PCM.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

I believe this is my third time using this example... I USE DRC LATE AT NIGHT WHEN OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE ARE SLEEPING. It's truly not hard to understand...

I use headphones.

And DRC can be used with any sound source, not just Dolby, if it's on the receiver.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

So you're saying the volume is the same for ALL video games, satalite/cable and music sources?

Note the name of this website.

Encodes for Blu's have nothing to do with video games, satellite, cable, or music sources.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

1) if it's Dolby, you can use DRC

I can use "night mode" with any audio source. On four different receivers; two models of Pioneer, and two fabulously ancient Technics receivers.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

2) I don't know how many of you can listen at a regular volume in the middle of the night but I can't. So it's already being altered enough by me turning down the volume every time something loud comes on. This way I can just use DRC without having to continuously adjust the volume.

Too bad this doesn't work with the wildly varying volume on cable, satellite, music, etc....

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

3) I have no idea where you're going with this... Actually I don't understand where most of your post is going in general. My point was simply that you can't use DRC with DTS (as many people have pointed out here). That's a problem for me if I try watching something late at night so I was talking about the bennifit of using DRC.

I don't recall anybody pointing this out; it's not an accurate statement in any case. I can use it any time I like. Which I don't.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Yes. Don't you hate it when people report facts, take measurements, and quote professionals who actually know something about the subject?

Don't you hate it when you're trying to watch a popcorn flick, and have to find people who report facts, take measurements, and quote professionals before you can get the dam thing to work right?

[Anthony P]

Clayton, peter, hope you don't mind if I answer you together

1) You guys are wrong, most can do it, if yours cannot then you can always buy a cheap add on device that can do it. many years ago I needed a switcher and got the Sima SVS-4 (it was like 30$ or something like that about 10 years ago) and it could go from 2:1 (expand the difference) to 1:10( shrink the difference). Why would you think metadata is necessary? And better systems have more then just on/off. DRC as metadata is only in DTHD and DD as far as I know, but they are not. If having screwed up range is that important then I would think the person would look into the gear he buys and buy the one that can screw up everything. I am curious Clayton, do you decide what movie you will watch based on your mood or if it has DRC and compressed it can make the range?

2) Clayton, I soundproofed my room, A good HT should be soundproofed I am not bothered by what is happening outside of it and I don't bother the people outside of it, it is not expensive and the benefits are incalculable.

Peter, you are right, but it is a a matter of caring, right? if you use DRC then you are not listening to the movie as intended the people making the movie decided on a certain range for a reason. Some one should not care how screwed up the audio is and then care because if there is a bit of a loss in detail? It is like loosing your wallet which had a 100$ bill and a penny and *****ing about the penny while not caring about the 100$ bill, it just makes no sense. I think lossy should be for people that want crap like DRC and lossless should be lossless. No loss in anything, the pure audio as it is meant to be listened to.

3) without getting too technical, go into excel, format it for $ and in the first three cells put =1/3 and in the fourth add the three together. what you get is .33 in each cell and the fourth 1. But .33*3=.99 and not 1. The way attenuation works is that it recalculates the "volume" on the fly, so if it is above the "middle" it calculates it down and if it is below it gives a higher value. Let's take a simple, similar example of decreasing the range, let's say we have a range of +10 and -10 and 0 is the middle (to make it simple), if I want to decrease the range by 1/2 I use x*.5 (where x is the original value) so -10*.5=-5 (1/2 of what it was) and 10*.5=5 (1/2 of what it was) and 0*.5=0 (has not changed so still at the centre) and 5*.5=2.5 which is still 1/2 way between 0 and 5. Now if .5 we call it metadata and we need it at several places, if I were to programme it I would have if DRC=off then metadata= 1 so now my equation is x*1 instead of x*.5 (the metadata on the file) and I don't need to recheck for n or off all over the place. The issue is that floating points (fractions) can become tricky, as seen in the excel example above, due to rounding and detail so in the end the equation which should be X*1 for off can look more like x*.99 then x*1 and has an effect on the final outcome. The assumption is that if DRC is possible then off= do nothing and on=do something. That is not necessarily a given and Off = do something which should have no effect.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I can use "night mode" with any audio source. On four different receivers; two models of Pioneer, and two fabulously ancient Technics receivers.



Too bad this doesn't work with the wildly varying volume on cable, satellite, music, etc....



I don't recall anybody pointing this out; it's not an accurate statement in any case. I can use it any time I like. Which I don't.

Night Mode and DRC are 2 different things. My night mode doesn't work nearly as well as DRC which is why I use the latter. And no, DRC doesn't apply to DTS. From the PS3 online manual:

"Enable or disable your PS3™ system's dynamic range control feature when playing a BD or DVD containing audio recorded in Dolby audio (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD)."

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Clayton, peter, hope you don't mind if I answer you together

1) You guys are wrong, most can do it, if yours cannot then you can always buy a cheap add on device that can do it. many years ago I needed a switcher and got the Sima SVS-4 (it was like 30$ or something like that about 10 years ago) and it could go from 2:1 (expand the difference) to 1:10( shrink the difference). Why would you think metadata is necessary? And better systems have more then just on/off. DRC as metadata is only in DTHD and DD as far as I know, but they are not. If having screwed up range is that important then I would think the person would look into the gear he buys and buy the one that can screw up everything. I am curious Clayton, do you decide what movie you will watch based on your mood or if it has DRC and compressed it can make the range?

2) Clayton, I soundproofed my room, A good HT should be soundproofed I am not bothered by what is happening outside of it and I don't bother the people outside of it, it is not expensive and the benefits are incalculable.

Peter, you are right, but it is a a matter of caring, right? if you use DRC then you are not listening to the movie as intended the people making the movie decided on a certain range for a reason. Some one should not care how screwed up the audio is and then care because if there is a bit of a loss in detail? It is like loosing your wallet which had a 100$ bill and a penny and *****ing about the penny while not caring about the 100$ bill, it just makes no sense. I think lossy should be for people that want crap like DRC and lossless should be lossless. No loss in anything, the pure audio as it is meant to be listened to.

3) without getting too technical, go into excel, format it for $ and in the first three cells put =1/3 and in the fourth add the three together. what you get is .33 in each cell and the fourth 1. But .33*3=.99 and not 1. The way attenuation works is that it recalculates the "volume" on the fly, so if it is above the "middle" it calculates it down and if it is below it gives a higher value. Let's take a simple, similar example of decreasing the range, let's say we have a range of +10 and -10 and 0 is the middle (to make it simple), if I want to decrease the range by 1/2 I use x*.5 (where x is the original value) so -10*.5=-5 (1/2 of what it was) and 10*.5=5 (1/2 of what it was) and 0*.5=0 (has not changed so still at the centre) and 5*.5=2.5 which is still 1/2 way between 0 and 5. Now if .5 we call it metadata and we need it at several places, if I were to programme it I would have if DRC=off then metadata= 1 so now my equation is x*1 instead of x*.5 (the metadata on the file) and I don't need to recheck for n or off all over the place. The issue is that floating points (fractions) can become tricky, as seen in the excel example above, due to rounding and detail so in the end the equation which should be X*1 for off can look more like x*.99 then x*1 and has an effect on the final outcome. The assumption is that if DRC is possible then off= do nothing and on=do something. That is not necessarily a given and Off = do something which should have no effect.

1) I choose a movie based on my mood or what my fiance wants to watch. Lady in the Water is a relaxing and enjoyable movie to me, almost like a bedtime story. But there are still plenty of really loud moments in the film. As for metadata being bad, you should know that DTS has metadata as well. From the DTS-HD White Paper:

"Different audio presentations are defined by the stream metadata, which activates specific assets."

2) This house wasn't really designed with that in mind. In fact it'd be pointless as there's a giant window on the right side of the room anyway...

3) So are you claiming that setting DRC to "Off" doesn't really mean that it is?

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Don't you hate it when you're trying to watch a popcorn flick, and have to find people who report facts, take measurements, and quote professionals before you can get the dam thing to work right?

Work right in the sense that you have to adjust your volume?

[ClaytonMG]

I should clarrify... I am using a PS3. It does the decoding since I can't have my receiver decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA (which is why I am talking about the DRC function on the PS3).

[BIslander]

There’s a good deal of “yes, it can”, “no it can’t” going on this thread re: applying DRC. It strikes me that there are a couple of issues here and many unanswered questions.

1. Does anyone know what Dolby does when it calculates DRC metadata? If the decoding device has its own DRC feature independent of Dolby’s, does it perform the same calculations or does the output vary from device to device? Is independent DRC control a common feature on players and processors? I usually see the language that says DRC can only be used with Dolby encodes. Some of the better Yamahas have a feature called Adaptive DRC that can be used with any source. But, it appears to take multiple steps in configuration menus to enable and disable.

2. Is “night mode” the same as DRC? Or, is it a variant? If so, what are the differences? My BD55 has a DRC setting, which the manual says is limited to Dolby sources. It also has a “night surround” option that can be used with any source. If they’re the same, why have both? If they are different, how? ClaytonMG indicated that he prefers Dolby DRC to the PS3's "night mode".

I’m not an audio professional. But, I know a fair amount about the subject and I do not know the answers to these questions. The answers would seem to bear directly on determining whether Dolby’s DRC calculations provide unique outputs or ones that can be matched by various “night mode” and independent DRC settings on other devices.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

1) I choose a movie based on my mood or what my fiance wants to watch. Lady in the Water is a relaxing and enjoyable movie to me, almost like a bedtime story. But there are still plenty of really loud moments in the film.

so what do you do if there is no DRC or it is not DTHD/DD to begin with?

As for metadata being bad, you should know that DTS has metadata as well. From the DTS-HD White Paper:

"Different audio presentations are defined by the stream metadata, which activates specific assets."

I don't have an issue with any codec be it DTS or Dolby, if it was not for the hefty bitcost, I would prefer PCM, with the choice, but I am not willing to compromise PQ for it. Of DTS-HD MA and DTHD I don't have a preference, they both have their pros and cons. The issue is that some think lossless is lossless when there are tons of things that are happening in the background that change values (some where you might have some control over while others you have 0 control)

3) So are you claiming that setting DRC to "Off" doesn't really mean that it is?

no, I am asking how you, or anyone else, can be 100% certain that all you need to do is put it to off for it to have absolutely no effect on absolutely every player.

Many years ago (before the launch of BD/HD DVD or maybe just after) there was discussion on PCM vs lossless. Some people like here where “lossless is lossless, there is no difference so why not save the space and the bitrate cost anyone that prefers PCM is an idiot”. I asked at the time the same thing I am asking here, how are you certain. Eventually there where some titles that did have issues with playback and you did not get an honest lossless playback because unlike zip files where all you need is to decode them, audio is extremely time critical and so just a fraction of a second off and you can't get the correct playback. For example if the audio is 16/48 (most basic) then you get that they took a sample every 48,000th of a second, and so if it takes 1/48000th of a second longer to decode then it should have then it is not just a bit off but completely off. That was what they missed in the “lossless is lossless”. This case is a bit different, but a lot similar, in that you are comfortable in the assumption that DRC has no effect when off and you chastise people that have issue with its existence.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Night Mode and DRC are 2 different things. My night mode doesn't work nearly as well as DRC which is why I use the latter. And no, DRC doesn't apply to DTS. From the PS3 online manual:

"Enable or disable your PS3™ system's dynamic range control feature when playing a BD or DVD containing audio recorded in Dolby audio (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD)."

I don't know if Night Mode and DRC use different algorithms or what, but they do the same things as far as I can tell. When I want to keep from disturbing someone, I use headphones, no big deal.

In any case, Night Mode is on my receiver, as is DRC for Dolby (it's automatic if bitstreamed). I can't see any reason to rely on it strictly from the player. The receiver does it, and it does it on every receiver I've bought in the last fifteen years.

Trying to get DRC in conjunction with lossless audio makes absolutely no sense to me. It's a contradiction in terms. I'm not knocking your choice; but let's face it, DTS doesn't use it (I understand it's possible to do it, but no encode I know about does) and since the receiver does it for any sound source, I just don't see the point in fooling with it for every Blu release.