Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

1) 3) So are you claiming that setting DRC to "Off" doesn't really mean that it is?

Maybe not, if it's bitstreamed.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Work right in the sense that you have to adjust your volume?

Correct.

This horse is dead, but those studs on his neck ain't for nothin':

If I have a straight LPCM encode going in, I want that exact same stream coming out. That includes volume.

That's all I want. Dolby can do it. Dolby won't.

I'd prefer DTS.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Correct.

This horse is dead, but those studs on his neck ain't for nothin':

If I have a straight LPCM encode going in, I want that exact same stream coming out. That includes volume.

That's all I want. Dolby can do it. Dolby won't.

I'd prefer DTS.

Dolby can do it. Dolby won't, eh? Who's encoding the audio? It's the STUDIO deciding wether or not to use DialNorm... SONY DOESN'T USE IT. IF they switch to DTS, you'll notice the volume level will be the same as it was when they used Dolby TrueHD.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I don't know if Night Mode and DRC use different algorithms or what, but they do the same things as far as I can tell. When I want to keep from disturbing someone, I use headphones, no big deal.

In any case, Night Mode is on my receiver, as is DRC for Dolby (it's automatic if bitstreamed). I can't see any reason to rely on it strictly from the player. The receiver does it, and it does it on every receiver I've bought in the last fifteen years.

Trying to get DRC in conjunction with lossless audio makes absolutely no sense to me. It's a contradiction in terms. I'm not knocking your choice; but let's face it, DTS doesn't use it (I understand it's possible to do it, but no encode I know about does) and since the receiver does it for any sound source, I just don't see the point in fooling with it for every Blu release.

I cannot apply DRC to PCM using my receiver. The Dynamic Range setting ONLY adjusts Dolby and DTS sources (according to the manual). Since I have the player decoding the audio, I need to let the player do the DRC. Not to mention it's easier pressing Triangle on the remote and selecting DRC that way than to go into my receiver, go to Manual Set Up, then to Sound Menu, then to Dynamic Range and then change it to Min.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

so what do you do if there is no DRC or it is not DTHD/DD to begin with?

Truth be told, I hardly use it. The only reason I even brought it up is because people asked about DRC and said how it's useless. So I gave them a pretty good example.

But I do agree with you that both have their pro's and con's. Here's how I look at it:

Pro's if Sony switches (REAL pro's, not made up ones):
Higher bitrate core (though the 640kbps Dolby tracks aren't terrible either)

Cons:
Fewere people will be able to take advantage of the lossless audio track due to the fact that fewere people can decode DTS-HD MA than Dolby TrueHD. Will this matter a few years down the line? Probably not so much, but it might bug some people at first.

I wont say Dolby is more compatible in general since all Blu-ray players have to at least be able to decode the DTS core. Just so long as the user realizes to set the player to PCM instead of Bitstream. I have read people's threads here with Dolby Digital receivers that have been upset that they can't use any 5.1 audio tracks because their receiver wont decode DTS.

I don't view the lack of DRC as a major con. Like I said, I hardly use it. I was just trying to give an example.

[hardcorefrokid]

Originally Posted by georgeybanez

PCM should be used at all times. Seriously drop true hd and dts and put everything in PCM.

PCM takes up a lot of space.

[trans22]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Dolby can do it. Dolby won't, eh? Who's encoding the audio? It's the STUDIO deciding wether or not to use DialNorm... SONY DOESN'T USE IT. IF they switch to DTS, you'll notice the volume level will be the same as it was when they used Dolby TrueHD.

who says sony doesn't use dialnorm? i personally think they do because the earlier sony blu-rays that used PCM where noticably louder than their more recent dolby releases.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by trans22

who says sony doesn't use dialnorm? i personally think they do because the earlier sony blu-rays that used PCM where noticably louder than their more recent dolby releases.

Interesting that you say that. I have noticed the volume on more recent releases to be lower volume than the others, however I when I see the dialnorm that for most releases comes up -4 on my receiver it still shows up +4 for Sony releases.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

Interesting that you say that. I have noticed the volume on more recent releases to be lower volume than the others, however I when I see the dialnorm that for most releases comes up -4 on my receiver it still shows up +4 for Sony releases.

What receiver are you using and what does the manual say the dialnorm value represents? Dolby only allows volume to be lowered by dialnorm, not raised. And, the offsets are usually expressed as negative numbers. Dolby decoders will adjust volume downward to a dialnorm of 31, which puts average dialog 31db below the 105db maximum. Most movies are encoded with a dialnorm value of 27. The -4db offset shows the amount the decoder lowers the overall volume to get to 31.

Dialnorm values greater than 31 are not allowed, meaning there is no way to get a positive number. Even if your receiver reports dialnorm offsets the opposite way, using positive numbers instead of negatives, I don't see how you could get a -4db display with some discs and a +4db with others. Again, the decoder will only adjust the volume down, never up.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

What receiver are you using and what does the manual say the dialnorm value represents?

Onkyo 705

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by trans22

who says sony doesn't use dialnorm? i personally think they do because the earlier sony blu-rays that used PCM where noticably louder than their more recent dolby releases.

Sony says Sony doesn't use Dialnorm. And I don't know what releases you're talking about but in ALL of my experiences with Sony and Dolby TrueHD, the Dolby TrueHD tracks are the same level as PCM tracks.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by davcole

Interesting that you say that. I have noticed the volume on more recent releases to be lower volume than the others, however I when I see the dialnorm that for most releases comes up -4 on my receiver it still shows up +4 for Sony releases.

I see +4 on sony movies also. and disney.

I thought dialnorm lowers the volume, not raise it?

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by saprano

I see +4 on sony movies also. and disney.

I thought dialnorm lowers the volume, not raise it?

It does lower it. The +4 indicates that it's raising the audio back up.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by BIslander

What receiver are you using and what does the manual say the dialnorm value represents? Dolby only allows volume to be lowered by dialnorm, not raised. And, the offsets are usually expressed as negative numbers. Dolby decoders will adjust volume downward to a dialnorm of 31, which puts average dialog 31db below the 105db maximum. Most movies are encoded with a dialnorm value of 27. The -4db offset shows the amount the decoder lowers the overall volume to get to 31.

Dialnorm values greater than 31 are not allowed, meaning there is no way to get a positive number. Even if your receiver reports dialnorm offsets the opposite way, using positive numbers instead of negatives, I don't see how you could get a -4db display with some discs and a +4db with others. Again, the decoder will only adjust the volume down, never up.

On my receiver (at least I think it's this one... it might've been an older one) it says -4db for a lot of DTS tracks. Some DTS tracks actually would come up as -7db (I believe the core of Reservoir Dogs came up that way)

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

It does lower it. The +4 indicates that it's raising the audio back up.

I don't understand that. To the best of my knowledge, Dolby decoders never raise the overall volume. So, what device would be "raising the audio back up" and based on what criteria?

EDIT: Here's a link to a review of the Onkyo 805:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-3.html

And the critical sentence in that article: "At the start of a bitstream, the display will (briefly) show the difference in Dialnorm assertion with reference to the default -27. So for example, if you see "Dialnorm: +4 dB", that means the output of the decoder has been raised by 4 dB."

That seems to suggest that Onkyo considers a dialnorm of -27 to be the proper level, which is 4db higher than the Dolby standard. Perhaps Onkyo receivers actually raise the volume when a disc is encoded at -31. Sheesh. That might very well produce outputs that are 4db hot under some circumstances.

Are there any Onkyo owners familiar with what those receivers are doing?

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by BIslander

I don't understand that. To the best of my knowledge, Dolby decoders never raise the overall volume. So, what device would be "raising the audio back up" and based on what criteria?

I always just assumed that if the track was 4db lower, the dialnorm would be "flagged" (if that's the correct term) and then the receiver would automatically adjust for it and say "DialNorm +4db" because it was turning it up to compensate for the track that's 4db quieter. Is that not right?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

I always just assumed that if the track was 4db lower, the dialnorm would be "flagged" (if that's the correct term) and then the receiver would automatically adjust for it and say "DialNorm +4db" because it was turning it up to compensate for the track that's 4db quieter. Is that not right?

I edited by earlier post to include a reference to a review of an Onkyo 805 receiver.

In the Dolby scheme, the overall volume is never raised. Dialnorm is designed to produce an average dialog level that is never too loud. But, it makes no adjustments for average dialog that is lower than the Dolby standard. It is not even possible to enter a dialnorm value during encoding that is lower than -31. It appears Onkyo may have decided that -27 is better than -31 and Onkyo receivers then boost any soundtrack with a dialnorm value of -31, -30, -29, or -28.

[PeterTHX]

Here's one:

The Akira 192kHz TrueHD track flashes "DialNorm +10dB" on my 905!

[saprano]

So which is correct? i didn't know dialnorm raises volume only lower it. on some movies i see -4 and i others i see +4.

[Deciazulado]