Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Anthony P]

Of course, it's there. No one is denying the existence of dialnorm. The discussion is about its effect. You acknowledge it's not a big issue. I'd say it doesn't matter for lossless playback and has value in other areas.

and then you asked why I said "who are you to decide". You are doing it again. You decided it should not matter that it gets distorted and so anyone that thinks it does matter is wrong.
For someone that is not picky at all overly compressed MP3 is good enough
For someone that cares more anything under DVD is an issue
For someone that cares more they look for DTS on the DVD
For someone that cares even more they want lossless on BD
and there could be people that have real high end systems and real good ears that find that the DRC that happens due to DN is an issue as well.

The problem is that the truncation does happen and nether you or anyone else can say that it does not or furthermore say that you get back the original PCM values (which is what was said).

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Sorry, Anthony, you've completely lost me here. Your responses also suggest you may not understand what I am saying. Perhaps someone else can translate.

lets try something simple

do you agree dissagree with
1) that if something on Dolby comes out with an average of -51 that DN will be set at -31, (not the correct value)
2) if a studio turns off DN (i.e. uses 0) then the DRC will be centred around -31 even if it should be centered around –21
3) there are devices that do range control on audio streams with no DN
4) let’s take an extreme example, I RC something to death to such a point that there is only 2dB between the loudest and lowest sound, that sound will be able to come out from my receiver at 20dB +/- 1dB or 30dB +/- 1dB or 40dB +/- 1dB or 50 dB +/- 1dB …. The range +/-1 is what the RC will do, the 20,30…. will depend on the receivers volume. The only time it will have a negative effect is if the manufacturer picks something insane for the centre point, because then the receiver might not have the ability to compensate. But you would need to build a device with an extremely screwy centre point.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

and then you asked why I said "who are you to decide". You are doing it again. You decided it should not matter that it gets distorted and so anyone that thinks it does matter is wrong.
For someone that is not picky at all overly compressed MP3 is good enough
For someone that cares more anything under DVD is an issue
For someone that cares more they look for DTS on the DVD
For someone that cares even more they want lossless on BD
and there could be people that have real high end systems and real good ears that find that the DRC that happens due to DN is an issue as well.

The problem is that the truncation does happen and nether you or anyone else can say that it does not or furthermore say that you get back the original PCM values (which is what was said).

You're all over the map here. This discussion is not about the kind of compression used on mp3s or lossy codecs. It's about dialnorm adjustments and dynamic range controls. Further, DRC is applied by the user, not the decoder. DN merely plays a role in helping to make DRC work properly. But, your statement "DRC happens due to DN" misrepresents what actually happens.

Now, let's get back to science here. Show us something that demonstrates lopping off the bottom 4db in a full scale recording as is done by Dolby decoders applying dialnorm has any audible effect.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Now, let's get back to science here. Show us something that demonstrates lopping off the bottom 4db in a full scale recording as is done by Dolby decoders applying dialnorm has any audible effect.

DO the test, I can't do the test for you

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

DO the test, I can't do the test for you

You're the one who claims that dialnorm adjustments produce an audible difference. I believe that places a burden on you to support such a claim.

As for testing, a home brewed comparison has zero validity. A scientifically rigorous DBT is in order here. Citations from audio professionals related to the specific issue at hand would also lend some credibility. I read a fair amount about these subjects and I don't recall seeing anything remotely related to the position you are taking. I may have just missed it, of course, which is why I asked you to "show something". That's what I meant - scientific test results or credible professional opinions.

Presumably, you have done your own testing. I'm curious about how you constructed such a test at home. I'm not aware of any way to compare a TrueHD track with and without DN adjustments. If a track is encoded with a DN other than -31, all Dolby decoders will lower PCM by the offset amount. How do you listen to that same track without a dialnorm adjustment? You could compare the same track encoded with TrueHD and dts-MA, but that would not be proper since it introduces other variables. Besides, there are very few discs with both TrueHD and dts-MA tracks. The 30th Anniversary of Close Encounters has both. But, I don't think the TrueHD tracks use DN.

If you have any kind of legitimate support for the notion that non-dialnormed playback produces superior audio quality to volume adjusted dialnorm output, please share it. I am always interested in learning something new.

[Deciazulado]

How is the volume attenuated or raised. Digitally? Internally on the receiver? In what word length? 24-bit? 32-bit? In the analog stages? But attenuating/raising 4dBs digitally would make for some errors changing 24 bit into 23 bit. Not that 23-bit vs 24-bit makes a world of difference.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

How is the volume attenuated or raised. Digitally? Internally on the receiver?

I believe the Dolby decoder does the attenuation. So, that part is definitely digital. I don't know how various receivers add gain on the master volume.

[saprano]

For those of you who dont read pentons thread, a decision has been made.

The DTS-HD Master Audio vs. Dolby TrueHD poll proved useful and you all will be seeing the results of that in titles coming later this Fall.

Fellow membership should keep in mind that I am finished with regularly following that particular survey and its related pertinent comments; however, if I do hear about Bludog, Krelldog or surroundhound all posting in unison on the same page of that survey again, I may just be inclined to post this YouTube video once more ……….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8

Our chieftain moderators should consider keeping the audio survey thread open for executives to read from other studios/content providers (for example, George Feltenstein, Senior VP from WB has mentioned to me that he reads my thread regularly [which carries a link to that audio codec poll]) who may be thinking of switching from one audio codec to another and perhaps also for fellow members who find it valuable to learn/debate certain related audio nuances of interest to them which have arisen during/as a result of the course of that discussion.

Thanks for all the participation ……roughly over 1,300 votes, over 1,300 replies and over 30,000 views, all accomplished in a short time since its inception , as it has been hovering around those numbers for a few weeks now already.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=9832

He doesn't say which codec they chose, but it sounds like they'll be using DTS-MA to me

Also its interesting that a Senior VP at WB reads this thread( well pentons thread anyway. hopefully he reads this) and is interested is switching to DTS. maby thats why the The Watchmen has DTS-MA.

George Feltenstein if your reading this, just make the switch

[Monkey]

The Watchmen should sound fantastic

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Monkey

The Watchmen should sound fantastic

I'll laugh when it sounds exactly the same as what the Dolby TrueHD track would've sounded like but all you guys brag about how awesome it is!

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

I'll laugh when it sounds exactly the same as what the Dolby TrueHD track would've sounded like but all you guys brag about how awesome it is!

Cool, you can laugh and I'll brag and enjoy it

FYI, I know you're overly sensitive about DD and hurt about the results poll but my comment was strictly based on the fact that I watched during an IMAX presentation (I've quoted my post for you again, as you can see I didn't even mention DTS-MA or TrueHD ) and it did indeed sound fantastic, which leads me to believe it should sound fantastic on blu-ray on my home setup

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Cool, you can laugh and I'll brag and enjoy it

FYI, I know you're overly sensitive about DD and hurt about the results poll but my comment was strictly based on the fact that I watched during an IMAX presentation (I've quoted my post for you again, as you can see I didn't even mention DTS-MA or TrueHD ) and it did indeed sound fantastic, which leads me to believe it should sound fantastic on blu-ray on my home setup

Haha you got him there monkey. thats what i call paranoid.

That just proves people really dont like dts for whatever reason

[saprano]

lol yeah. when i said people, i ment those "specific people"

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by saprano

Haha you got him there monkey. thats what i call paranoid.

That just proves people really dont like dts for whatever reason

I don't dislike DTS. I just think it's the same as Dolby TrueHD while others put it on a pedistal for no reason.

And he sure did get me! Holy crap did he get me! But let me point this out. He mentioned the sound on Watchmen, WB's first DTS-HD MA title, in a thread where DTS fanboys are running rabid. Gee, I wonder why he would mention that in this particular thread...

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

I don't dislike DTS. I just think it's the same as Dolby TrueHD while others put it on a pedistal for no reason.

Clearly my post that you quoted put DTS-MA on a pedestal

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Cool, you can laugh and I'll brag and enjoy it

FYI, I know you're overly sensitive about DD and hurt about the results poll but my comment was strictly based on the fact that I watched during an IMAX presentation (I've quoted my post for you again, as you can see I didn't even mention DTS-MA or TrueHD ) and it did indeed sound fantastic, which leads me to believe it should sound fantastic on blu-ray on my home setup

So you brought up Watchmen, said it would sound awesome because it sounded awesome in Sonics-DDP? I'm sure that's really the reason...

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Clearly my post that you quoted put DTS-MA on a pedestal

I didn't say you put it on a pedistal.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

So you brought up Watchmen, said it would sound awesome because it sounded awesome in Sonics-DDP? I'm sure that's really the reason...

No, I didn't bring up Watchmen. Hint: read the post prior to mine

No, that isn't what I said, the quote is still there to help you out.. "would" is not the same as "should" and they don't share the same meaning either.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

I don't dislike DTS. I just think it's the same as Dolby TrueHD while others put it on a pedistal for no reason.

And he sure did get me! Holy crap did he get me! But let me point this out. He mentioned the sound on Watchmen, WB's first DTS-HD MA title, in a thread where DTS fanboys are running rabid. Gee, I wonder why he would mention that in this particular thread...

Whatever clayton, yes he did get you.

WHY ARE WE FANBOYS!!!!! please tell me. enough with that crap, you and peter. just because we like something more than the other? i guess the whole world is fanboys and girls since everyone likes something better. whether it be movies, games, sports, anything.

[trans22]

Originally Posted by saprano

For those of you who dont read pentons thread, a decision has been made.



https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=9832

He doesn't say which codec they chose, but it sounds like they'll be using DTS-MA to me

Also its interesting that a Senior VP at WB reads this thread( well pentons thread anyway. hopefully he reads this) and is interested is switching to DTS. maby thats why the The Watchmen has DTS-MA.

George Feltenstein if your reading this, just make the switch

great, hopefully GODZILLA and BAD BOYS will be DTS-HD MA