Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[trans22]

SILVERADO and QUICK AND THE DEAD have just been announced by SONY for 8th september but they still have TRUEHD for audio, if SONY are changing to DTS then my question is when?

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by trans22

SILVERADO and QUICK AND THE DEAD have just been announced by SONY for 8th september but they still have TRUEHD for audio, if SONY are changing to DTS then my question is when?

PM said this fall...

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I will comment that Dialnorm is noticeable and that it causes me to turn up the volume on Dolby TrueHD tracks to balance them to what a DTS-HDMA or PCM track would be. That said, after I have leveled the audio as best I can, rarely am I forced to have to fiddle with the volume after that. I have DRC turned off, so I think that I haven't had as many issues as some.

On Sony titles as well? On Sony titles I haven't had to adjust for DialNorm. On WB and Paramount I have though...

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by ganthc

I will comment that Dialnorm is noticeable and that it causes me to turn up the volume on Dolby TrueHD tracks to balance them to what a DTS-HDMA or PCM track would be.

Yes, that's the way it works. Or, stated another way, you are forced to turn down the volume on a DTS or PCM track to get it to match the TrueHD output level. It depends on your perspective and how you calibrated your system levels.

That said, after I have leveled the audio as best I can, rarely am I forced to have to fiddle with the volume after that. I have DRC turned off, so I think that I haven't had as many issues as some.

As we've been discussing, DN has nothing to do with peaks and valleys. That's all in the mix. If you need to fiddle along the way for a given soundtrack, that will be true no matter what codec is used - dts-MA, PCM, or TrueHD.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

On Sony titles as well? On Sony titles I haven't had to adjust for DialNorm. On WB and Paramount I have though...

If the DN value is -31, then the decoder makes no adjustment. That's what Sony is doing - entering a value that prevents a DN adjustment.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

On Sony titles as well? On Sony titles I haven't had to adjust for DialNorm. On WB and Paramount I have though...

Yes, even on Sony, Paramount, and the old Disney titles. I have just gotten into the habit of turning up the sound when it is a Dolby TrueHD track. It's not like it means the sound is inferior. But it's just a way of life with TrueHD, and something I don't have to do with PCM or DTS-HDMA. The same is true for DD+ and DD, and less so for the DTS-HDHR/DTS-core. This really does explain the difference people hear, I believe. DTS is louder.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Yes, even on Sony, Paramount, and the old Disney titles. I have just gotten into the habit of turning up the sound when it is a Dolby TrueHD track. It's not like it means the sound is inferior. But it's just a way of life with TrueHD, and something I don't have to do with PCM or DTS-HDMA. The same is true for DD+ and DD, and less so for the DTS-HDHR/DTS-core. This really does explain the difference people hear, I believe. DTS is louder.

That's interesting, I haven't had to adjust for Sony or Disney titles. Some Paramount titles were like 7db lower than normal. Then WB titles are abour 4db lower.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

That's interesting, I haven't had to adjust for Sony or Disney titles. Some Paramount titles were like 7db lower than normal. Then WB titles are abour 4db lower.

Some examples of Disney and Sony titles that I can list are:

Underworld: Rise of the Lycans
Ghostbusters
The Grudge
The International (which was an excellent audio track!)
National Treasure: Book of Secrets (which did sound weaker than NT 1 PCM track, but that was probably the mix, not the codec)
Enchanted (which was also an excellent track)

Disney's experiment with TrueHD audio was short-lived, so I don't have too many examples. I could list more examples of Sony titles if you want me to, but overall, I have to beef up the audio on TrueHD regardless of studio. Once it's beefed up, there are reference type tracks that have Dolby TrueHD.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ganthc

Some examples of Disney and Sony titles that I can list are:

Underworld: Rise of the Lycans
Ghostbusters
The Grudge
The International (which was an excellent audio track!)
National Treasure: Book of Secrets (which did sound weaker than NT 1 PCM track, but that was probably the mix, not the codec)
Enchanted (which was also an excellent track)

Disney's experiment with TrueHD audio was short-lived, so I don't have too many examples. I could list more examples of Sony titles if you want me to, but overall, I have to beef up the audio on TrueHD regardless of studio. Once it's beefed up, there are reference type tracks that have Dolby TrueHD.

On National Treasure 2 I had a weird situation where enabling THX causes the sound to be muffled. On Enchanted I don't think I had to level match. But now that you mention it, I did have to level match on Ghostbusters which I think is the first title from Sony I had to level match on...

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

On National Treasure 2 I had a weird situation where enabling THX causes the sound to be muffled. On Enchanted I don't think I had to level match. But now that you mention it, I did have to level match on Ghostbusters which I think is the first title from Sony I had to level match on...

There are a few that I have not had to level match on. 30 Days of Night was a reference track and did not require level matching. Quarantine was another one that was pretty aggressive. Those are two examples, and there aren't many more than those. Not that they have to be level matched to the same degree as Warner titles, but yes, even Sony titles need to be beefed up to match the level of sound I get from DTS-HDMA/PCM audio tracks.

[cembros]

i hear so many complain that they have to adjust a true hd track because of dial norm. I ask these people do you not have to adjust any of your dtshdma or pcm tracks for a suitable listening level. Not all tracks are recorded at the same level, for example i cannot play the fast and the furious dts hdma track at reference level without loosing hearing, but i can play the harry potter pcm tracks at reference just fine. That for me negates the issue of having too adjust the volume for dial norm since i have to adjust for dtshdma or pcm tracks to because of different recording levels

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by cembros

i hear so many complain that they have to adjust a true hd track because of dial norm. I ask these people do you not have to adjust any of your dtshdma or pcm tracks for a suitable listening level. Not all tracks are recorded at the same level, for example i cannot play the fast and the furious dts hdma track at reference level without loosing hearing, but i can play the harry potter pcm tracks at reference just fine. That for me negates the issue of having to adjust the volume for dial norm since i have to adjust for dtshdma or pcm tracks to because of different recording levels

Actually, Mr. Brooks... the loudest movie I own. If I remember right, I did a test and I believe the loud parts of the movie are 50db-60db louder than the normal speaking parts of the movie. It's terrible. I had to keep adjusting the sound. Back then I could only decode the DTS core though and I haven't tested since... but I doubt that matters... But there have been PCM tracks I've had to turn up, some I've had to turn down... same with DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD. I believe the Dolby TrueHD version of Casino Royale was loud if I remember right...

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by cembros

i hear so many complain that they have to adjust a true hd track because of dial norm. I ask these people do you not have to adjust any of your dtshdma or pcm tracks for a suitable listening level. Not all tracks are recorded at the same level, for example i cannot play the fast and the furious dts hdma track at reference level without loosing hearing, but i can play the harry potter pcm tracks at reference just fine. That for me negates the issue of having to adjust the volume for dial norm since i have to adjust for dtshdma or pcm tracks to because of different recording levels

Typically I can set all DTS-HDMA/PCM tracks at a -15 level on my receiver and it sounds fantastic, and for the most part, it doesn't have me covering my ears. The loud sounds are more loud, but not enough to have me scrambling for my remote. I always set my receiver for that level when those tracks are on. For Warner titles I set them at -9, and Paramount at -11, and Sony at -12, and 9 times out of 10, I am satisfied with the level matching that creates.

I am usually fine whether I am listening to Mrs. Doubtfire or Wanted. As I have stated, the DTS-HDMA tracks are loud. I don't have to make too many adjustments and whether it's quiet or loud the level I have it set at is fine. It's only with TrueHD that I have to raise the volume because the quiet moments need to be heard more clearly. It's not that TrueHD is inferior, it just needs to be bumped up more.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Actually, Mr. Brooks... the loudest movie I own. If I remember right, I did a test and I believe the loud parts of the movie are 50db-60db louder than the normal speaking parts of the movie. It's terrible. I had to keep adjusting the sound. Back then I could only decode the DTS core though and I haven't tested since... but I doubt that matters... But there have been PCM tracks I've had to turn up, some I've had to turn down... same with DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD. I believe the Dolby TrueHD version of Casino Royale was loud if I remember right...

i think this is such an important point and am surprised it hasnt been discused yet, i mean if the argument is that true hd is inferior because of the need to volume adjust, then why arent dtshdma and pcm tracks inferior because they are to loud and need to be adjusted.

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by cembros

i think this is such an important point and am surprised it hasnt been discused yet, i mean if the argument is that true hd is inferior because of the need to volume adjust, then why arent dtshdma and pcm tracks inferior because they are to loud and need to be adjusted.

There are very few exceptions where I have to turn down PCM/DTS-HDMA tracks. On the other hand, it is standard practice to beef up TrueHD tracks. Once again, this does not make it inferior. There are plenty of reference quality TrueHD tracks.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by ganthc

There are very few exceptions where I have to turn down PCM/DTS-HDMA tracks. On the other hand, it is standard practice to beef up TrueHD tracks. Once again, this does not make it inferior. There are plenty of reference quality TrueHD tracks.

i dont think they are inferior, i could care less about adjusting the volume on any track. Two dtshdma tracks that i can think of off hand that i need to lower the volume on are the fast and furious series and independence day. I would go deaf if i played them at the same level as most other tracks. Do you own those titles?

[ganthc]

Originally Posted by cembros

i dont think they are inferior, i could care less about adjusting the volume on any track. Two dtshdma tracks that i can think of off hand that i need to lower the volume on are the fast and furious series and independence day. I would go deaf if i played them at the same level as most other tracks. Do you own those titles?

I don't own the blu-ray titles for Fast and the Furious, as I have these on hd-dvd, and I don't love the movies that much to want to repurchase them in blu. If Universal offers some program like Warner's redtoblu deal, I might trade up on these.

I do own Independence Day and while a few of the explosions were over the top loud, I didn't have to constantly adjust my volume at all. The ones I specifically had to adjust were the POTC movies, the first one really. I also had to adjust for Unbreakable too. The DTS-HDMA tracks that were too boomy were Doomsday and Hellboy 2. So maybe Universal is cranking their dials too high on their encodes, but for the most part, I am fine overall, even with the movies I listed. They just have "stingers" in them that are crazy loud.

And I don't really care that I have to adjust the volume either. It just seemed that a few people seemed to have act like they didn't have to adjust volume on TrueHD tracks, and I simply wanted to comment that I do have to on practically every occasion. This was not a criticism, just a comment. In the end, plenty of TrueHD tracks are superb and wouldn't show any improvement with DTS-HDMA except in loudness.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

The only thing I would add as a point of clarification is that DTS does not use DN values. We’ve both read that DN has been added as a metadata element on the encode side. But, it’s not processed on the decode side, which is where adjustments are made. So, the encode data, if it is even entered, seems to be irrelevant for now. DTS tracks often end up 4db louder than Dolby tracks simply because movies are often recorded and encoded, when using Dolby, with a DN of -27. DTS will be louder by the DN offset, whatever that amount happens to be.

are you sure about that? not questioning as in "I don't beleive you" but just curious if it is from a reliable source. That would be extremely interesting if true

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

are you sure about that? not questioning as in "I don't beleive you" but just curious if it is from a reliable source. That would be extremely interesting if true

Yes, I'm pretty much sure, based on my understanding of Dolby dialnorm processing. A DN value from -31 to -1 is placed in the metadata during encoding. The decoder uses that value to adjust the overall playback loudness. Dolby decoders output average dialog at -31dbFS. If the dialnorm value in the metadata is -31, the decoder makes no adjustment. If DN = -30, it lowers the loudness by 1db and so on. I believe there has to be a valid entry during encoding. It's not an optional field, although I have also heard that 0 is valid and is processed as -31. Meanwhile, the decoder software is always going to make whatever adjustment is called for by the DN value. I'm not aware that there's any added metadata flag that instructs the decoder to ignore DN. There'd be no reason for that since an entry of -31 essentially does it already.

So, let's a say movie is recorded at the typical -27dbFS for average dialog. If it's encoded using dts-MA, it comes out of the DTS decoder at -27dbFS. If the same movie soundtrack is encoded using TrueHD with a dialnorm value of -27, the Dolby decoder will adjust overall loudness so that average dialog is dropped 4db and comes out at -31dbFS. But, it is important to note that the DN value is not computed by the encoder. The encoding engineer can enter whatever value he wants. So, if that same movie is encoded with a DN value of -31, the decoder won't make any adjustments and the average dialog level will actually be -27dbFS, just like the output of the DTS decoder. When Sony says it doesn't use dialnorm, I believe that means they enter a DN value of -31 to prevent the decoder from adjusting the loudness on playback.

Here's the bottom line: all of the important work is done by the decoder. Dolby decoders process DN values and act accordingly. As far as I know, DTS decoders do not.

As for sourcing, the metadata pdf linked earlier in this thread spells out what Dolby does. But, I haven't seen any similar documentation from DTS. Nor have I seen anything from Sony actually explaining what they mean when they say they don't use dialnorm.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

But, I haven't seen any similar documentation from DTS. Nor have I seen anything from Sony actually explaining what they mean when they say they don't use dialnorm.

In PM's thread (at least it was one of the insiders one) Peter linked to something from DTS. As for not use DN, the technical aspect is in the Dolby document linked earlier. DN can range from -31 to 0 where 0 means no DN or act as if DN=-31 (so no audio manipulation)

[Meerkat]

I want the best lossless audio since I pay a premium for the movie. The best and highest bitrate.