Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

If that were true, there'd be no need to fiddle with DRC controls during playback.

I couldn't figure out why Iron Man sounded like crap until I figured that out.

It should not be the default with Dolby, but it is. Why defend it, or claim that TruHD is not fiddled with?

Dolby has DRC as an option, not a default. If you don't like it, simply turn it off. My player and receiver have the DRC option set to off and I've never had to deal with it after the initial set-ups. Iron Man was an improperly mastered disc. But, of course, DRC can be useful for some people in some listening circumstances. It could be argued that including it as an option makes TrueHD superior to dts-MA.

Please explain what you mean by "fiddled with". As far as I know, DRC and dialnorm are the only options associated with the encoder. Is there something else going on here?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by AlaskaDon

I think that it's very easy to get lost in the science of things, and forget about the real purpose of this poll. It's also very much about marketing and public perception. Do Sony engineers really need someone from this forum to explain to them the difference, or lack of difference between two lossless audio codecs? Of course they don't.

No offense, but I suspect Sony's marketing department has much better tools than this poll for determining whether using dts-MA makes good business sense. (Yes, I understand that the poll was posted at the request of someone associated with SPE.) Meanwhile, I hope you aren't suggesting it's inappropriate to discuss the merits and science of the claims in this thread.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

With respect, I think that's the main issue with dialnorm, it can't be disabled by the end user, it's just there.

Even if you adjust the volume to compensate, it doesn't remove dialnorm.

Sorry, but this is not correct. The dialnorm offset produces the same effect as turning down the master volume by that amount. It doesn't affect the mix or dynamic range or anything else. You compensate for dialnorm by increasing the volume. The Dolby default is -4db. So, you turn up the volume on your receiver by 4db.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Sorry, but this is not correct. The dialnorm offset produces the same effect as turning down the master volume by that amount. It doesn't affect the mix or dynamic range or anything else. You compensate for dialnorm by increasing the volume. The Dolby default is -4db. So, you turn up the volume on your receiver by 4db.

I even mention you can turn the volume up to compensate but the fact remains, you cannot disable dialnorm on the user end. Unlike DRC where you can simply turn it off, dialnorm has no such option. All you can do as a consumer is to adjust the volume.

[bajor27]

Yes, but only because it has a better quality core track which is good for people who haven't updated their sound systems yet

[GeneD5]

IMO...simplest answer I can give...DTS ALWAYS sounds superior to me...and yes I have the DRC or whatever on my ps3 turned off.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

I even mention you can turn the volume up to compensate but the fact remains, you cannot disable dialnorm on the user end. Unlike DRC where you can simply turn it off, dialnorm has no such option. All you can do as a consumer is to adjust the volume.

OK. Now I understand what you are saying about not being able to disable dialnorm.

So, what's the problem with turning up the volume? I think just about everyone adjusts the volume at the start of a program since soundtrack levels are all over the map. What makes DTS superior here? That it's louder? Now, if DTS knew what volume you wanted and handled the adjustments on its own, that would be something. But short of that, this seems trivial.

[Sky_Captain]

Originally Posted by GeneD5

IMO...simplest answer I can give...DTS ALWAYS sounds superior to me...and yes I have the DRC or whatever on my ps3 turned off.

Louder doesn't mean better... Or does it? I can't decide.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by GeneD5

IMO...simplest answer I can give...DTS ALWAYS sounds superior to me...and yes I have the DRC or whatever on my ps3 turned off.

To me, that statement says a movie with a poorly mixed soundtrack using dts-MA would sound better to you than a movie with a great soundtrack that uses TrueHD. Is that what you mean? Do you have any examples where you have compared the exact same soundtrack that was encoded both ways and the dts-MA version sounds better to you? The point being, I suspect you are comparing mixes, not codecs.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

OK. Now I understand what you are saying about not being able to disable dialnorm.

So, what's the problem with turning up the volume? I think just about everyone adjusts the volume at the start of a program since soundtrack levels are all over the map. What makes DTS superior here? That it's louder? Now, if DTS knew what volume you wanted and handled the adjustments on its own, that would be something. But short of that, this seems trivial.

I'm not sure i'm saying anything is wrong with adjusting the volume or that DTS superior? However if you can give me a legitimate reason why Dialnorm is necessary on a disc, i'd sure love to know the reason why?

This is not directed to you but I do wonder why people think of DTS as louder than Dolby being quieter, as DTS is set along the same level as PCM. Perception is interesting.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

I'm not sure i'm saying anything is wrong with adjusting the volume or that DTS superior? However if you can give me a legitimate reason why Dialnorm is necessary on a disc, i'd sure love to know the reason why?

As I recall, dialnorm started as an effort to automatically level audio outputs so they didn't change from program to program - a kind of consumer reference level as it were. But, content providers have elected to not use consistent dialnorm offsets, so it doesn't work as a system. DTS encoders have dialnorm, too, and Dolby doesn't require its use. Dolby encoders have a default setting (I think it's -4db) while DTS encoders are set to 0. It would be great if all content - discs, broadcasts, whatever - were set to output at the same level. But, that's not going to happen and dialnorm now seems to be just another inconsistent factor in CE audio.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Dolby has DRC as an option, not a default. If you don't like it, simply turn it off. My player and receiver have the DRC option set to off and I've never had to deal with it after the initial set-ups. Iron Man was an improperly mastered disc. But, of course, DRC can be useful for some people in some listening circumstances. It could be argued that including it as an option makes TrueHD superior to dts-MA.

This is being disingenuous. Sound that is tampered with, forcing an "opt-out" setting, is not "simply" anything. There is no menu notification or selection on the playback media/disc. There is no flashup on the screen. Arguing that playing back an altered sound mix makes it "superior" in some way, is not using logic.

I don't have any problem with sound alteration as an option. But as a default? It makes no sense.

Originally Posted by BIslander

Please explain what you mean by "fiddled with". As far as I know, DRC and dialnorm are the only options associated with the encoder. Is there something else going on here?

They're not just "associated with"; they're defaults, which is very different. It's my understanding that dialnorm is a broadcast setting, which Blu-ray obviously is not. It's also unnecessary to place DRC as a default, since it's clearly something that should be "opt-in", not "opt-out".

I popped in Iron Man, played the movie, and it sounded like crap. I received no notification that the sound had been hobbled by DRC; and I don't need DRC. If I wanted it, I should have had a menu option that allowed it, just like subtitles or any other option.

It's clear that TruHD does replay PCM tracks after decoding with lossless sound. It's also clear that unless consumers are informed that the sound is not truly lossless unless changes are made to player settings, that TruHD is not fully recreating the PCM track.

As far as dialnorm is concerned, it's idiotic - changing volume levels is a "fix" that isn't required, and defies logic.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Dolby has DRC as an option, not a default. If you don't like it, simply turn it off.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.html

"Dialogue normalization maintains the same volume level when you change to other Dolby Digital and Dolby TrueHD programming"

What do I need this for? I'm watching stored media, not television. On a unit with a volume control, I might add.

"Dynamic range control (Night mode) enables you to customize audio playback to reduce peak volume levels (no loud surprises) while experiencing all the details in the soundtrack, enabling late-night viewing of high-energy surround sound without disturbing others"

What do I need this for?

Studios need to be sure they turn this foolishness off when encoding their discs.

Why are these the "defaults"?

[XSilentCobraX]

I almost every time i watch a movie with TrueHD, they somhow feel abit compressed compared to DTS HD MA titles, so yes Sony should swith to DTS HD MA (7.1 in my case )

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

As I recall, dialnorm started as an effort to automatically level audio outputs so they didn't change from program to program - a kind of consumer reference level as it were. But, content providers have elected to not use consistent dialnorm offsets, so it doesn't work as a system. DTS encoders have dialnorm, too, and Dolby doesn't require its use. Dolby encoders have a default setting (I think it's -4db) while DTS encoders are set to 0. It would be great if all content - discs, broadcasts, whatever - were set to output at the same level. But, that's not going to happen and dialnorm now seems to be just another inconsistent factor in CE audio.

http://www.dolby.com/professional/pr...tloudness.html

It's a broadcast standard - lopping 4db from the sound mix. This makes no sense.

The recording industry set up the RIAA curve almost fifty years ago. Dolby appears to be trying to set up their own standard, and it isn't flying. I consider it a pain in the neck, and by definition, it isn't "lossless"; I'm losing 4db from the signal.

That's a loss.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by XSilentCobraX

I almost every time i watch a movie with TrueHD, they somhow feel abit compressed compared to DTS HD MA titles, so yes Sony should swith to DTS HD MA (7.1 in my case )

+1

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

This is being disingenuous. Sound that is tampered with, forcing an "opt-out" setting, is not "simply" anything. There is no menu notification or selection on the playback media/disc. There is no flashup on the screen.

I guess you don't understand how this actually works.

DRC flags exist in the metadata. DRC is only implemented when engaged by the playback device. You need to set DRC to On in your player or receiver, otherwise nothing happens.

Arguing that playing back an altered sound mix makes it "superior" in some way, is not using logic.

If Dolby can do A and B and DTS can only do A, then it can be argued that Dolby is superior. That's not logical?

You don't have a use for DRC. Nor do I. But, some people do, making it a useful feature that Dolby has and DTS does not.

I don't have any problem with sound alteration as an option. But as a default? It makes no sense.

They're not just "associated with"; they're defaults, which is very different. It's my understanding that dialnorm is a broadcast setting, which Blu-ray obviously is not. It's also unnecessary to place DRC as a default, since it's clearly something that should be "opt-in", not "opt-out".

You're right, dialnorm is not an option. So, turn up the volume a little more. DRC depends on how you set up your player or receiver, not something you deal with disc to disc unless you want to. As I said in a previous post, I set my player and receiver for DRC = Off when I configured them and have never had to deal with that setting when playing a disc.

I popped in Iron Man, played the movie, and it sounded like crap. I received no notification that the sound had been hobbled by DRC; and I don't need DRC. If I wanted it, I should have had a menu option that allowed it, just like subtitles or any other option.

As I said before, Iron Man was incorrectly authored. It turned on DRC regardless of the player/AVR setting.

It's clear that TruHD does replay PCM tracks after decoding with lossless sound. (YES!) It's also clear that unless consumers are informed that the sound is not truly lossless unless changes are made to player settings, that TruHD is not fully recreating the PCM track.

No. It's lossless, just 4db quieter. You're the first person I've seen who includes master volume as part of the definition of lossless. That's certainly not how the industry uses the term. DRC only gets involved if you engage it yourself.

As far as dialnorm is concerned, it's idiotic - changing volume levels is a "fix" that isn't required, and defies logic.

Dialnorm was actually an attempt to level program output levels - a major complaint among consumers. Broadcast is the primary application, but it applies to all types of outputs. The concept doesn't seem idiotic at all. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out the way intended. But, since programs levels are all over the map for TV, discs, video games, and everything else, most people adjust the volume at the start of any program they are watching. It isn't as though dialnorm on a TrueHD track makes you do something you aren't already doing anyway.

Oh - and to your original assertion about "fiddling with" - is that it - DRC and dialnorm? No other fiddling going on?

[BIslander]

Speaking of fiddling with the output, there's a disturbing trend with the implementation of dts-MA decoders in players. Panasonic, dating back to the BD50, and Pioneer with the dts-MA upgrade for the 09FD, 05FD, and 51FD, are now doing channel duplication to create 7.1 outputs from 5.1 sources. Both manufacturers reportedly claim they are doing so per DTS requirements. It's not an optional function, it can't be turned off.

Many analog users may consider this a feature because most receivers can't apply DSPs such as PLIIx to analog sources. But, it also means people doing player decoding for HDMI output are stuck with channel duplication for the rears instead of being able to use better matrix processing available in their receivers.

Now, this is not part of the DTS codec itself. But, it's something that DTS appears to be forcing into decoders and, considering the posts in the Pioneer and Panasonic threads at AVS, it would appear to be a significant drawback for some end users.

[4Dblu]

i don't care what use as long as it NOT DD 5.1 DVD sound. i think this is so stupid for Blu movies. i mean what's the point y can't they just use one sound period.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BIslander

No offense, but I suspect Sony's marketing department has much better tools than this poll for determining whether using dts-MA makes good business sense......

That statement ^ , to me, actually sounds quite dismissive of the spirit of the purpose (and value) of this survey.
If SPE wasn’t interested in the thoughts of consumers on Blu-ray.com, I would not have taken the time to request the posting of this poll, in the first place.
If this thread somehow turns into a referendum on the significance of this poll to SPE, I can assure you right now, that no further such surveys with be forthcoming.

To give participants some perspective as to the value of this poll, a V.P. directly involved in the decision making process of these matters already reviewed the data within 48 hours from the time the poll initiated………and will continue to do so, until it peters out.