HDR Discussion Thread

[FullyArray]

From the UK shootout - a interesting take on why LG OLED topped the ZD9 in HDR.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54637024

To clarify, the 2017 LG OLED does not in fact 100% equal the Z9D/Z9D in HDR performance

For those who are not in the know, there are several aspects which primarily contribute towards HDR performance, namely: (1) Bright highlights detail; (2) Shadow detail; (3) Peak luminosity; (4) Black Level; and (5) WCG colour performance, particularly with respect to accuracy and saturation.

It is a common misconception that higher peak luminance capability = overall brighter image. The 2017 LG OLEDs have a peak luminance capability of circa 800 nits. Just because the Sony ZD9/Z9D has a peak luminance capability of circa 1840 nits does NOT necessarily mean it will be outputting an overall significantly brighter full field image. The peak luminance figure relates to the maximum luminance with a 10% window with White 235. It does not relate to the luminance of the full field. In all instances the overall full field 235 luminosity with respect to any and all TVs should be calibrated such that it is the same; and according to professional video industry guidelines, such as ISF and/or THX. Where the recommended level by THX (Level 3) with respect to HDR and consumer TVs, is circa 46 fL / 160 nits. Where in fact it is with respect to the subcomponent parts of the image that the luminance may be significantly greater than this, but not the whole / full field. Such as for example a shot of the sun as part of a landscape. The reason it is important to calibrate the full field luminosity to the recommended guidelines is that higher than this will induce eye fatigue, which needs to be avoided.

It is important to note that with respect to the grading of consumer HDR video content, whilst consumer content technically is capable of being graded at up to 4000 nits, and the reference monitors used have 4000 nits peak luminance capability, in reality there exists hardly any information actually encoded at above 1000 nits. Any and all information above a TV's peak luminance capability, can be retained and displayed via tone-mapping, which regrades the video such that the information, including the bright highlights detail is displayed by whatever TV within its luminance capabilities. Otherwise the video is clipped and this information is 'lost'. Therefore, in reality peak luminance capability of greater than 1,000 nits with respect to any TV will in fact hardly ever actually be used, if at all. Where with respect to the Sony ZD9/Z9D the extra circa 850 nits above 1000nits will only ever be used with respect to video information that is graded within 1000 – 4000 nits, which as stated is rare. And because it is rare, coupled with the fact that it is only a small proportion of the full field of the image, this is why the 2017 LG OLEDs can properly display the full information including all the bright highlights detail, via tone-mapping, with the same overall image luminance as the Sony ZD9/Z9D despite having comparatively a much lower peak luminosity.

Post was pretty long so you can read the rest at the link.

What do you think? Is this another "640k ought to be enough for everyone" moment? Replace 640k with 800 nits. Or is he right in that the high nits go wasted, essentially, most of the time with most content?

[Geoff D]

Honestly can't be bothered to argue the toss any more. I guess Dolby are barking up the wrong tree with their 4000-nit Pulsar.

[FullyArray]

Well, the Pulsar is aimed at professionals who need supreme accuracy over anything else for their work. So it makes sense to have high nits as a reference monitor for HDR.

I think LG's Active HDR mode (assuming they used it) clinched it for them. The APL bump must have been very noticeable.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Honestly can't be bothered to argue the toss any more. I guess Dolby are barking up the wrong tree with their 4000-nit Pulsar.

Just my opinion, but when we get broadcast HLG HDR 4K for sports, they will have to pry my Z9D from my cold dead hands before I'd switch to an 750 nit OLED for daytime sports viewing. I think there are some others here who might pile on that.

HDR is movie-centric for the time being, but will expand into so much more, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Edit: pls bring us some 4K Olympics for Winter 2018 and Summer 2020!

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Thank you for the quick summary.

You are talking about the letterbox bars on the top and bottom?

To be honest, not sure what I will be allowed to share once I find out what is going on.

Certainly the parties involved don’t want to point fingers at their “partners”. The issue could be the disk, the player, the display, the cable, or a combination of them. Could you give us a generic answer by number?

1. Sorry, I can’t.
2. The issue is being looked into by the relevant parties.
3. The cause of the issue has been established.
4. The solution to the issue is being worked.
5. The issue will be fixed by a FW update.
6. The issue has been fixed. (you can breathe again Salty )

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

These fanboy debates remind me of my video game days, and not in a good way.

Originally Posted by OI8T12

Do we have to have this DV vs HDR10 debate in every ****ing thread? It's getting real tiresome.

This post ^ has 20 likes. It needs no explanation.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

No surprise that the superior format at the moment, HDR10, produces the better PQ.
I'm sure those little guys over at Dolby will figure things out in a few years, though.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Looking forward to watching this in the superior format, and indeed the only format that it will be available on disc - HDR10. Should look dazzling.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

No one wants grey letterbox bars galore. Literally not one single person on the planet.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Not happening. It will, however, feature the superior HDR format - i.e. HDR10.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I'm sure you'll be able to live with the HDR10 version, which will be 99% identical to what DV would have been.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Excellent business decision on behalf of Disney. No reason to pay fees for a format that provides literally no upgrade and which is 100% identical to HDR10.

You chose these words ^ to get a reaction from the Dolby Vision supporters.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Once it's "perfected," we can reevaluate from there. At this particular moment, it's not ready for prime time.

You can make your point in a non-trolling manner ^ when you want too.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I knew this guy would be the saltiest of all the DV fangirls.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

No, you're supposed to believe the many people with DV capable TVs who have posted about this issue, DV fangirl.

Perhaps you should show respect to others, that you would want shown to you.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Actually, more accurately, I'm anti DV fangirls. I have nothing against the format itself.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

My post about those movies coming out in HDR10+ was just meant to poke the DV fanatics.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

…I do, however, enjoy mocking people who fanboy over a format that's a subtle upgrade, and pretend it's something more.

You are clearly stating ^ the intentions of all your above posts are to inflame the emotions of the Dolby Vision supporters.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I don't think there's anyone who is actually a "Dolby Vision naysayer." I think everyone here supports dynamic metadata for HDR in one form or another. There are people who are realistic about the benefits it brings and who will point out when someone is overhyping a format. But no one is against DV.

You obliviously are an intelligent guy. My suggestion is that if a point is made that you disagree with, that you address that point and not use hyperbole. Mean what you say, and say what you mean.

Posts after this OP are below:

Originally Posted by OI8T12

He's probably going to be suspended again, or banned for good. I don't wish that on anyone, but if the trolling continues, it will happen.
HeatEquation, I don't have anything against you personally, but your constant trolling is way out of hand. Please stop it, so you can be a contributing member of this great website.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

This can't be true. We were told that DV solves all the world's problems, including cancer and famine.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Absolutely love the amount of salt coming from DV fanatics about HDR10+. Hilarious.

[Staying Salty]

http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170821000664

Samsung Electronics will provide its ultra-high definition technology as an open source for various industry players by the end of the year, hoping the tech to be used not only for premium televisions, but also online video content players and gaming, the company said Monday.

“Although it is our proprietary technology, we decided to provide it as an open source with an aim to lead competition for standardization of TV technologies,” the executive said.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

“Although it is our proprietary technology, we decided to provide it as an open source with an aim to lead competition for standardization of TV technologies,” the executive said.

Google said pretty much the same thing for VP9

[HeatEquation]

From that article, looks like they'll announce new partnerships with new content providers. I'm guessing Netflix.

Will be interesting to see if HDR10+ has similar issues to what DV has been experiencing. Wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. People were too eager to immediately crown the various dynamic HDR formats as the king of HDR, but static HDR10 is still looking stronger at the moment.

[Penton-Man]

If anyone has multiple exposures of this scene on the U.Va. campus in C-Ville, 2 Friday’s ago….



Please PM me with captures, as a good HDR image could be produced with this method….
http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~viscomp/projects/SIG17HDR/

P.S.
Photo credit and the aftermath of the brave students ^ subsequently being surrounded by the torch carrying hoard of out-of-towners who had been shouting bigotry slogans while walking thru campus grounds and then down the steps of the Rotunda:
https://thinkprogress.org/hundreds-o...-84ebbc552bbe/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Thank you for sharing, had not seen that video. Nice to see David in the video.

At the upcoming SMPTE 2017 Annual Technical Conference & Exhibition in Hollywood in October, David is chairing the session……

Emerging Research in Visual Perception

"As emerging cinema equipement and computer-generated imagery tools strive to push the bounds of our vision, it is imperative that we continue to affirm practical perceptual limits. Higher and higher fidelity in color and tone reproduction, temporal refresh rates, and graphical photorealism are challenging conventional wisdom of how the human visual system responds. This session will explore new data from various characterizations of visual perception trends and will address potential impacts on image quality."

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170821000664

Samsung Electronics will provide its ultra-high definition technology as an open source for various industry players by the end of the year, hoping the tech to be used not only for premium televisions, but also online video content players and gaming, the company said Monday.

“Although it is our proprietary technology, we decided to provide it as an open source with an aim to lead competition for standardization of TV technologies,” the executive said.

I am wondering what does he mean by open source.


Open source & open standard definitions:

"Open source denotes that a product includes permission to use its source code, design documents, or content (see open source and open content – the latter deals with non-software deliverables or where the distinction between source code and other content is unclear or complex)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_s...disambiguation)

"An open standard is a standard that is publicly available and has various rights to use associated with it, and may also have various properties of how it was designed.
The definitions of the term open standard used by academics, the European Union and some of its member governments or parliaments such as Denmark, France, and Spain preclude open standards requiring fees for use, as do the New Zealand, South African and the Venezuelan governments. On the standard organisation side, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) ensures that its specifications can be implemented on a royalty-free basis [like open standard SMPTE ST 2094-40 from Samsung].
Many definitions of the term standard permit patent holders to impose "reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing" royalty fees and other licensing terms on implementers or users of the standard [like open standard SMPTE ST 2094-10 from Dolby]."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standard


Does he mean HDR10 Plus is an open standard which can be implemented on a royalty-free basis like the legacy HDR10

or

does he mean HDR10 Plus is open source publicly available with an open source code HDR10 PLUS reference tone / gamut mapping implementation which can be implemented on a royalty-free basis?

Originally Posted by DanBa

Thanks!

How about HDR10 PLUS?

Like Dolby Vision, I don’t think the open standard SMPTE ST 2094-40 Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform specification can completely specify the HDR10 PLUS tone / gamut mapping.

Is there an open standard HDR10 PLUS tone / gamut mapping specification (or an open source HDR10 PLUS reference implementation)?

Proprietary HDR10 PLUS tone / gamut mapping specification must exist at least for Samsung developers for implementation on Samsung TV.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post13941130

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Please PM me with captures, as a good HDR image could be produced with this method….[/url]

HDR image yes, but not video. I am sure you know there is a big difference between them. HDR images (photographs, stills) are still SDR in the end.

In the paper they combine multiple SDR images with different exposures to get a single SDR image that has good detail in both black areas and highlights, but in the end it's still an SDR image. It's just what photographs (and still cameras) call HDR images.

The majority of journalists covering HDR video seem to be confused about the difference between HDR video (which is actually HDR) and "HDR" still images (which are actually SDR).

[Penton-Man]

^ z,
We’re cutting edge here at Blu-ray.com forum, for example from 2013, before HDR became fashionable - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...le#post8498218, but teachable moments are sometimes needed at all levels, e.g., come this Friday -

HDR Video Mastering for Classic Cinema
Bill Baggelaar, Sony Pictures Entertainment

“With the advent of HDR TV and the wave of new theatrical and television titles that are being mastered in this new format, it is only a matter of time before we turn our eyes towards re-envisioning our classic titles in this new medium.
While we have been working on the development of High Dynamic Range for several years now mainly for in-home television viewing and more recently for the cinema, there have been many misunderstandings on what exactly HDR means and how it relates to content, and especially to classic cinema.
With an expanded palette of color and light, HDR technologies allow us to bring out more detail that was in the original negatives. The new HDR masters can represent values in the original film that could not previously be expressed due to the limitation of film and television distribution technologies. HDR technology provides a visual experience that can more closely approximate – on today’s screens and for today’s viewers – the look and feel of an original theatrical presentation.

This does not necessarily mean that the images are “brighter”, but rather expands on the use of better overall contrast, with better black levels and shadow detail, as well as highlights that can be used for effect. Maintaining saturation at bright levels as well as deep color saturation more in-line with film saturation are some of the main advantages for classic film titles.”

http://www.the-reel-thing.co/program-abstracts-5/#hdr

[pottu]

Originally Posted by zmarty

HDR image yes, but not video. I am sure you know there is a big difference between them. HDR images (photographs, stills) are still SDR in the end.

In the paper they combine multiple SDR images with different exposures to get a single SDR image that has good detail in both black areas and highlights, but in the end it's still an SDR image. It's just what photographs (and still cameras) call HDR images.

The majority of journalists covering HDR video seem to be confused about the difference between HDR video (which is actually HDR) and "HDR" still images (which are actually SDR).

There are HDR image formats. (DNG, OpenEXR etc.)

Sadly photographers say the end result after horrible tone mapping is HDR photo and thus confuse many users. (The bracketed one is true high dynamic range image.)
Was really disappointed when android HDR+ didn't create .DNG with combined dynamic range. (Phone takes 2 photos and tonemaps it to 8bit range.)

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by pottu

There are HDR image formats. (DNG, OpenEXR etc.)

Yep, you are right and I use them daily. But the quoted paper was about "HDR" (actually normal SDR) images obtained by combining pictures at different exposures.

[pottu]

Originally Posted by zmarty

Yep, you are right and I use them daily. But the quoted paper was about "HDR" (actually normal SDR) images obtained by combining pictures at different exposures.

Ah, sorry missed that part.

Would love to see proper support for HDR photo formats in all devices and software.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Speaking....

g, ‘Club’ thread closed since Spring of 2012, but nevertheless not dead.

PMed from a longtime follower that despite the closure, Club Penton broke the 6 million viewership mark over the past weekend - https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

rock on.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

....Seems like there were attempts to show 4K in the past.

early attempts at broadcast 4K sports (and even in some cases, to this day) haven’t done the format due justice…..
http://www.mobiletvgroup.com/wp-cont...K-Indusrty.pdf

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

g, ‘Club’ thread closed since Spring of 2012, but nevertheless not dead.

PMed from a longtime follower that despite the closure, Club Penton broke the 6 million viewership mark over the past weekend - https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

rock on.

You always gave honest and informative answers in that thread.