Black Panther 4K UHD (2018)

[gates70]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

We're just discussing a 4K BR flick; story, visuals, audio soundtrack, sound effects, ...and it doesn't sound full, it lacks vitamins, energy where it should shake the foundations of space.
Out of ten it's a six. ...For inconsistency, incompleteness. ...In my ears, body and soul. It's as "good" as Thor 3 and SW:TLJ Epi. Vlll.

Which both suck.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by gates70

So it sounds like an argument of one...everyone in this thread and other forums say it's bad except for the odd person. Wonder who's right ? Lol...I have a great system with a treated room and it does not sound good no matter the volume

We have secret agents sent out by Disney in here

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by aetherhole

Oh for the love... you are absolutely thick. You completely missed the point (again).

I'm thick? Jesus.... Based on your comments about not noticing any front-loaded comments, I'm not sure you're even aware of the negative comments launched at numerous Marvel movies including not only Black Panther, but the "far worse" Thor 3. Whatever is "wrong" with these soundtracks, I'm pretty certain it's not most of the things stated about them.

I'll stick with Thor 3 since I'm waiting on Black Panther 3D to arrive and I just did a bunch of observations last night with it.

-There are no explosions that sound like a pile of leaves hitting the ground.

-The movie is NOT remotely "front loaded" with "zero" surround effects.

-It has deep bass

-It's crystal clear sound in terms of effects and dialogue.

-It is 8-15 dB (depending on the movie) lower in volume level than other studios and older Marvel titles. Yes, that's absolutely true. The question is whether that indicates something sinister or not. I'm of the opinion that if the movie was even 10dB louder (as I suggested the Dolby Digital conversion as a test to demonstrate) that MOST of the complaints in this thread about these lower volume movies would go away. Regardless of whether the dynamic range is more, less or the same, some systems simply cannot turn the volume up past 0dB. An amplifier amplifies the signal from the amplifier. If that signal is too low, it can only go so far.

Claims of dynamics can only go so far. If the movie isn't loud enough, it will sound "weak" no matter what (i.e. if the peak sound should be at 114dB and your system cannot reach 114dB due to that inadequate signal, it will sound weaker all the way down). This is going to be system dependent with a lower level regardless of whether the dynamic range is low or high.

When I say compressed sound is louder, I mean it's typically used to make things louder (by that I means softer sounds become louder. The absolute level is always determined by the system's ability to raise the volume level by the signal + pre-amp + amplifier amount (preferably without ANY clipping).

That removes every single complaint I've seen about the movie except the question of dynamics. There are only two possibilities here.

1> Assuming, the volume reaches the maximum level it should theoretically attain (e.g. let's say 114dB peaks), then as the dynamic range is lowered (more compression), it will result in the quieter sounds becoming too loud and basically blending together into a mushy sounding mess. Subtleties are lost. Nuances are lost. A lawnmower will start up at a higher volume than it should start at, etc. It starts sounding unnatural like a PA system or something to that effect the worse it gets.

2> With less compression (more dynamic range) at the same 114dB peak, you get the opposite effect (assuming the dynamic range exists in the first place; with FX use and canned sounds, etc. it's not about "natural" necessarily). The loudest sound in the movie at proper volume will be 114dB. The less loud sounds will get quieter and quieter. This sounds like it would be ideal except for the problem of human PERCEPTION.

3> If the system can't meet the volume requirement to sound where it should, it will sound WEAK regardless of the amount of dynamic range present. This is partially caused by human perception being uneven in terms of frequency response. Bass and high frequencies get progressively weaker sounding faster than the mid-range. This is why so many stereos had a "loudness" button designed to somewhat compensate for this effect (of course it was only "correct" at one volume level so it's either more or less effective where/when used).

The sad truth is that people tend to PREFER some compression when they hear it whether they believe it or not. This is partially due to the fact that it's VERY hard to hear very quiet parts in something like a symphonic orchestra without turning the volume WAY UP. The problem there is that some people don't like sudden VERY LOUD sounds. 114dB is too loud for some people in some houses and so they will not turn it up ANYWHERE NEAR that loud to begin with. Thus, instead of dialogue being at 65dB, as you say. It might only be at 50dB or even 40dB if the peaks are set to only 89dB (believe it or not many people find 90dB 'loud' and above 90dB extended listening at those levels (constant; not peak) will eventually over time result in hearing damage). At 40dB, you might even have house noises competing with the dialogue.

Psychoacoustic properties of human hearing dictate that both bass and the high end of the treble gets progressively quieter as you turn down the volume faster than the rest of the spectrum. This is also why Thor 3 gets noticeably "brighter" in my room as it approaches 0dB (DTS) as does the bass get noticeably louder. Vocals sound "OK" well before that point (as in understandable without difficulty). That however, does not mean that's where the volume level should be. And THAT is what I've been getting at with both music albums and movies that have lower average levels.

For example, Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason was their first album to be recorded fully digital (save the drums). It was panned for "bad digital sound" by many at the time. Yet oddly, the LP version was supposedly better. I happen to own both. If you import the original CD (don't know if they've "fixed" any remasters or not since) into something like Audacity, you'll find its peaks are NOWHERE NEAR 0dB. You can safely normalize the album to 0dB (or preferably just below it) and it's like 6-10dB louder (I forget exactly) with no other changes. 10dB is 2x louder sounding on average to the human ear. So someone pops in a more typical album that's normalized and perhaps heavily compressed to boot. It sounds 'x' amount loud to the listener. Now they pop in Pink Floyd's Momentary Lapse of Reason into the CD player. It's NOWHERE NEAR as loud. They turn it up. But do they turn it up ENOUGH? Were the problems with this album due to "evil digital" as some believed or was it possible they simply had it at too low a volume and never heard a valid comparison to even the band's other albums??? It wasn't just dynamic range there. The album's overall level was too low for some reason.

I've corrected it and put it back into my streaming directory with ALAC (Apple Lossless). When flipping between albums, it sounds immediately many times better to the ear without fiddling with volume controls. Worse yet, having to fiddle with the volume control makes it hard to compare quickly. Many people don't fiddle with it at all. The LP supposedly sounded better. Most moving magnet turntables would have a higher level than the CD and thus sound better at the same volume level setting.

I'm suggesting that at least SOME people are getting the same effect by either not turning up the volume enough or not being able to turn it up any farther. Compression might help to raise the volume, but it's not the best solution if one is unable to achieve the desired level. Given my setup needs 0dB to reach the level that is comparable to other Marvel movies at much lower volume settings (say -12dB), it's not much of a stretch to think that even slightly less efficient speakers or a larger room could make it impossible to reach the levels needed to sound "right". Yes, you can typically use more power, but twice my receiver's power is well into the 200 watt range and you only get 3dB more output at twice the power. 3dB is nowhere NEAR that 10dB level difference. You could possibly need well over 400-600 Watts to compensate (many speakers can't handle that much regardless) if the louder soundtracks were anywhere NEAR your maximum volume setting.

"It sounds great here" is your subjective opinion. OPINION. What we are
talking about is a widely known FACTUAL issue that plagues all recent Disney releases. They might sound fine to you, but it doesn't mean there's NOT still an issue that should be fixed.

Do you seriously think the word "plague" doesn't connote an OPINION about the sound quality? Is not a plague a "negative" thing? Is this not a forum for opinions? Is your or any other these other people's opinions any less of an "opinion" that you don't care for the soundtrack on the disc?

Here's my REAL problems with the opinions expressed in this thread about more recent Marvel soundtracks:

-I was told the soundtracks have no bass. That's factually NOT TRUE and easy to prove. If one says not enough bass or not the amount needed at a given point, I wouldn't mind (subjective as it is given Skywalker Sound was in charge of these soundtracks and it's a bit like calling professionals there "rank amateurs" or the like).

- I was told the soundtrack has almost ZERO material in the surround channels ("Front Loaded" as you say). AGAIN, easy to prove FACTUALLY WRONG. Yet *I* am the one that doesn't "get" it.

Sounding fine and sounding fantastic are nowhere near the same thing.

"Fine" and "Fantastic" are SUBJECTIVE terms. I thought about saying fantastic or just "great" (I think I did use that one actually), but superlatives aren't graded on a 1-100 scale. Besides, regardless of what word I chose to convey that I thought the soundtrack was "not bad sounding", I would get called out by the people that have the opinion that it's just FARKING AWFUL! It's funny too because the same guy in charge of these particular soundtracks (or at least he gets the credit) at Skywalker Sound (Josh Lowden) also was in charge many of the soundtracks that people DID like. So either he is somehow randomly incompetent, just there in name or something else is going on. The sheer amount of arrogance needed to tell someone at Skywalker Sound that they're "doing it wrong" is another matter. Yet we have many here that want a petition to do just that.

may sound fine, but it should sound fantastic. It did in the theaters. There is dynamic emphasis that was present in the theatrical release that is not present on the disc.

Go back a few pages and read the accounts where people said it sounded TERRIBLE in the theaters too and thus ALL versions are fuxored. Now I realize I have had multiple people attack my opinions and logic, but the fact remains I don't recall any of those people arguing with the one/many that think it sucked in the theater also. Now theaters obviously vary in quality these days (what happened to THX rated cinemas? None exist any longer around here because they don't want to pay Lucasfilm when they can call it something like "XD" instead and hope people think it's the same thing or better.

If people don't like extended dynamics in their soundtrack, that's their own effing prerogative. However, Disney's decision only caters to them, which is incredibly unfortunate. Consumers have the option in their systems, TVs, whatever the hell they are listening through, to do the very same thing that Disney is doing. You can compress the dynamic range all you want from the proper (dynamic) source. You CANNOT extend the dynamic range back from the original compressed source without adverse affects.

Uh huh. It's that compressed soundtrack they use that just happens to also be LOW VOLUME, thus double negating the entire reason to compress the soundtrack in the first place??? Right. I'll take your word for that "random arse guess" you talked about.

I'm genuinely curious, what kind of system/set up are you listening on, and what kind of settings? Speakers? Are you using Audyssey Dynamic Volume? Are you speakers level matched? How "hot" are you running your LFE?

Of course they're level matched with an SPL meter. LFE is set to the same reference level as everything else. Bass redirection from the main L/C/R is set +4dB to compensate for room interactions with the those speakers relative to the subwoofer crossed at 80Hz. I don't use any dynamic volume settings or compression. The speakers are all PSB with matching drivers rated +/- 1.5dB anechoic except for the 15" 250-watt powered subwoofer. The room response isn't that good, obviously, but it's not terrible either and evened out a bit with Yamaha's room correction system. Bass is surprisingly flat from about 60Hz to 20Hz (within 1.5dB) at the primary listening location and perhaps +/- 3dB above that.

Upstairs (with a piddly 48" plasma added on the wall above my Roland Piano as an after-thought six years ago seeing as it's primarily meant to be a high-end two-channel music room, I have Carver AL-III speakers modified with active crossovers (Audio X-Stream), raising their effective efficiency rating from 87dB/1 watt @ 1 meter to 90dB (thus doubling effective power compared to the passive crossovers). I have 350 watts into 4 Ohms going to the 10" woofer/sub-woofer (whatever you want to call them; they're flat to 30Hz and have useful output to 27Hz, reinforced with a wood floor and extended hallway acting like a bass tube trap that keeps bass very even all the way down). The back of the cabinets are 3 feet from the front walls (they are 48" dipole ribbon radiators above the woofer box). The ribbons are powered by a Class A/AB amplifier providing up to 180 watts (into the now fully resistive 4 Ohm load thanks to the active crossover using inductors) to the ribbons. I've measured 114 dB pink noise peaks.

I've since added an old Technics outboard surround decoder so I can keep my fully analog sonic holography enabled pre-amp for fully analog turntable playback, etc. and have Klipsch surround satellite speakers and rear channel 8" sub for 4.0 playback on that system (occasional movies where I want to sit near the kitchen and/or some TV shows not to mention several music surround albums in DTS or SACD that simply sound better on the Carvers than the PSBs, even with an imperfect surround match. There is no compensation of any kind used. In fact, I used to run an audiophile CD review site from 1996 to 2006 called The Audiophile Asylum using that system (two-channel only at the time).

These are all contributing factors in how you are coming to the conclusion that this soundtrack sounds "fine."

It (referring to Thor 3 that supposedly sounds WORSE than Black Panther) sounds better than "fine". It sounds excellent at volume. It's not the "best" I've ever heard, but it's nowhere NEAR a slouch either. Once level matched, I'd probably give it 7.5 out of 10 (10 being the best I've heard so far).

I did think something was off at first because the levels are down about 12-15dB below most "average" films. But that puts it at 0 to -3dB (not exactly out of range) and as I said, if you CONVERT the soundtrack to another format (i.e. Dolby Digital) with Handbrake, it ends up being somewhere around 8-10dB (I didn't measure directly, but compared switching back and forth) LOUDER than the original soundtrack. Whether that's JUST a volume difference or it lost some dynamic range along the way in conversion to Dolby Digital, I can't say for certain without doing some peak measuring. But I can say they sound very similar at once the volume is changed. When Thor is fighting The Hulk, there is plenty of bass, (no "leaf falling" thuds) and lots of surround effects (not "front loaded").

As I've said before (without feeling the need to send "idiot" insults like half the people in this thread that somehow think insults make me MORE likely to listen to their opinion rather than less. Just look at all the veiled and not-so-veiled "idiot" comments. I feel more like I'm at a Trump convention than a discussion forum at this point. Oh yes. I care about their comments now. Other than calling me "thick" you've been more civil so I've attempted to explain my point of view one last time. You have to understand I don't really CARE anymore. Talking to brick walls gets old and most people rolling their eyes in here or insulting me are quite the brick layers.

[poke smot]

My leaf comment was more in regards to age of ultron. The opening scene a tank or truck flips over and basically sounds like a bag of leaves hitting the ground. A bag of leaves sir, a bag. Not leaves hitting the ground. Anyway, age of ultron, compared to thor 3 sounds damn near great. And it seemed things started to go south with ultron in terms of sound. Now all i can say is this in terms of disney sound: its just not as lively as it once was. Bro listen to prince of persia if you want a measure of how far disney has slipped in their sound. The new stuff is just sterile-ish and anemic. Like i said i still enjoy it. Its listenable and fun but just "meh."

[Dreamliner330]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

[Show spoiler]I'm thick? Jesus.... Based on your comments about not noticing any front-loaded comments, I'm not sure you're even aware of the negative comments launched at numerous Marvel movies including not only Black Panther, but the "far worse" Thor 3. Whatever is "wrong" with these soundtracks, I'm pretty certain it's not most of the things stated about them.

I'll stick with Thor 3 since I'm waiting on Black Panther 3D to arrive and I just did a bunch of observations last night with it.

-There are no explosions that sound like a pile of leaves hitting the ground.

-The movie is NOT remotely "front loaded" with "zero" surround effects.

-It has deep bass

-It's crystal clear sound in terms of effects and dialogue.

-It is 8-15 dB (depending on the movie) lower in volume level than other studios and older Marvel titles. Yes, that's absolutely true. The question is whether that indicates something sinister or not. I'm of the opinion that if the movie was even 10dB louder (as I suggested the Dolby Digital conversion as a test to demonstrate) that MOST of the complaints in this thread about these lower volume movies would go away. Regardless of whether the dynamic range is more, less or the same, some systems simply cannot turn the volume up past 0dB. An amplifier amplifies the signal from the amplifier. If that signal is too low, it can only go so far.

Claims of dynamics can only go so far. If the movie isn't loud enough, it will sound "weak" no matter what (i.e. if the peak sound should be at 114dB and your system cannot reach 114dB due to that inadequate signal, it will sound weaker all the way down). This is going to be system dependent with a lower level regardless of whether the dynamic range is low or high.

When I say compressed sound is louder, I mean it's typically used to make things louder (by that I means softer sounds become louder. The absolute level is always determined by the system's ability to raise the volume level by the signal + pre-amp + amplifier amount (preferably without ANY clipping).

That removes every single complaint I've seen about the movie except the question of dynamics. There are only two possibilities here.

1> Assuming, the volume reaches the maximum level it should theoretically attain (e.g. let's say 114dB peaks), then as the dynamic range is lowered (more compression), it will result in the quieter sounds becoming too loud and basically blending together into a mushy sounding mess. Subtleties are lost. Nuances are lost. A lawnmower will start up at a higher volume than it should start at, etc. It starts sounding unnatural like a PA system or something to that effect the worse it gets.

2> With less compression (more dynamic range) at the same 114dB peak, you get the opposite effect (assuming the dynamic range exists in the first place; with FX use and canned sounds, etc. it's not about "natural" necessarily). The loudest sound in the movie at proper volume will be 114dB. The less loud sounds will get quieter and quieter. This sounds like it would be ideal except for the problem of human PERCEPTION.

3> If the system can't meet the volume requirement to sound where it should, it will sound WEAK regardless of the amount of dynamic range present. This is partially caused by human perception being uneven in terms of frequency response. Bass and high frequencies get progressively weaker sounding faster than the mid-range. This is why so many stereos had a "loudness" button designed to somewhat compensate for this effect (of course it was only "correct" at one volume level so it's either more or less effective where/when used).

The sad truth is that people tend to PREFER some compression when they hear it whether they believe it or not. This is partially due to the fact that it's VERY hard to hear very quiet parts in something like a symphonic orchestra without turning the volume WAY UP. The problem there is that some people don't like sudden VERY LOUD sounds. 114dB is too loud for some people in some houses and so they will not turn it up ANYWHERE NEAR that loud to begin with. Thus, instead of dialogue being at 65dB, as you say. It might only be at 50dB or even 40dB if the peaks are set to only 89dB (believe it or not many people find 90dB 'loud' and above 90dB extended listening at those levels (constant; not peak) will eventually over time result in hearing damage). At 40dB, you might even have house noises competing with the dialogue.

Psychoacoustic properties of human hearing dictate that both bass and the high end of the treble gets progressively quieter as you turn down the volume faster than the rest of the spectrum. This is also why Thor 3 gets noticeably "brighter" in my room as it approaches 0dB (DTS) as does the bass get noticeably louder. Vocals sound "OK" well before that point (as in understandable without difficulty). That however, does not mean that's where the volume level should be. And THAT is what I've been getting at with both music albums and movies that have lower average levels.

For example, Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason was their first album to be recorded fully digital (save the drums). It was panned for "bad digital sound" by many at the time. Yet oddly, the LP version was supposedly better. I happen to own both. If you import the original CD (don't know if they've "fixed" any remasters or not since) into something like Audacity, you'll find its peaks are NOWHERE NEAR 0dB. You can safely normalize the album to 0dB (or preferably just below it) and it's like 6-10dB louder (I forget exactly) with no other changes. 10dB is 2x louder sounding on average to the human ear. So someone pops in a more typical album that's normalized and perhaps heavily compressed to boot. It sounds 'x' amount loud to the listener. Now they pop in Pink Floyd's Momentary Lapse of Reason into the CD player. It's NOWHERE NEAR as loud. They turn it up. But do they turn it up ENOUGH? Were the problems with this album due to "evil digital" as some believed or was it possible they simply had it at too low a volume and never heard a valid comparison to even the band's other albums??? It wasn't just dynamic range there. The album's overall level was too low for some reason.

I've corrected it and put it back into my streaming directory with ALAC (Apple Lossless). When flipping between albums, it sounds immediately many times better to the ear without fiddling with volume controls. Worse yet, having to fiddle with the volume control makes it hard to compare quickly. Many people don't fiddle with it at all. The LP supposedly sounded better. Most moving magnet turntables would have a higher level than the CD and thus sound better at the same volume level setting.

I'm suggesting that at least SOME people are getting the same effect by either not turning up the volume enough or not being able to turn it up any farther. Compression might help to raise the volume, but it's not the best solution if one is unable to achieve the desired level. Given my setup needs 0dB to reach the level that is comparable to other Marvel movies at much lower volume settings (say -12dB), it's not much of a stretch to think that even slightly less efficient speakers or a larger room could make it impossible to reach the levels needed to sound "right". Yes, you can typically use more power, but twice my receiver's power is well into the 200 watt range and you only get 3dB more output at twice the power. 3dB is nowhere NEAR that 10dB level difference. You could possibly need well over 400-600 Watts to compensate (many speakers can't handle that much regardless) if the louder soundtracks were anywhere NEAR your maximum volume setting.



Do you seriously think the word "plague" doesn't connote an OPINION about the sound quality? Is not a plague a "negative" thing? Is this not a forum for opinions? Is your or any other these other people's opinions any less of an "opinion" that you don't care for the soundtrack on the disc?

Here's my REAL problems with the opinions expressed in this thread about more recent Marvel soundtracks:

-I was told the soundtracks have no bass. That's factually NOT TRUE and easy to prove. If one says not enough bass or not the amount needed at a given point, I wouldn't mind (subjective as it is given Skywalker Sound was in charge of these soundtracks and it's a bit like calling professionals there "rank amateurs" or the like).

- I was told the soundtrack has almost ZERO material in the surround channels ("Front Loaded" as you say). AGAIN, easy to prove FACTUALLY WRONG. Yet *I* am the one that doesn't "get" it.



"Fine" and "Fantastic" are SUBJECTIVE terms. I thought about saying fantastic or just "great" (I think I did use that one actually), but superlatives aren't graded on a 1-100 scale. Besides, regardless of what word I chose to convey that I thought the soundtrack was "not bad sounding", I would get called out by the people that have the opinion that it's just FARKING AWFUL! It's funny too because the same guy in charge of these particular soundtracks (or at least he gets the credit) at Skywalker Sound (Josh Lowden) also was in charge many of the soundtracks that people DID like. So either he is somehow randomly incompetent, just there in name or something else is going on. The sheer amount of arrogance needed to tell someone at Skywalker Sound that they're "doing it wrong" is another matter. Yet we have many here that want a petition to do just that.



Go back a few pages and read the accounts where people said it sounded TERRIBLE in the theaters too and thus ALL versions are fuxored. Now I realize I have had multiple people attack my opinions and logic, but the fact remains I don't recall any of those people arguing with the one/many that think it sucked in the theater also. Now theaters obviously vary in quality these days (what happened to THX rated cinemas? None exist any longer around here because they don't want to pay Lucasfilm when they can call it something like "XD" instead and hope people think it's the same thing or better.



Uh huh. It's that compressed soundtrack they use that just happens to also be LOW VOLUME, thus double negating the entire reason to compress the soundtrack in the first place??? Right. I'll take your word for that "random arse guess" you talked about.



Of course they're level matched with an SPL meter. LFE is set to the same reference level as everything else. Bass redirection from the main L/C/R is set +4dB to compensate for room interactions with the those speakers relative to the subwoofer crossed at 80Hz. I don't use any dynamic volume settings or compression. The speakers are all PSB with matching drivers rated +/- 1.5dB anechoic except for the 15" 250-watt powered subwoofer. The room response isn't that good, obviously, but it's not terrible either and evened out a bit with Yamaha's room correction system. Bass is surprisingly flat from about 60Hz to 20Hz (within 1.5dB) at the primary listening location and perhaps +/- 3dB above that.

Upstairs (with a piddly 48" plasma added on the wall above my Roland Piano as an after-thought six years ago seeing as it's primarily meant to be a high-end two-channel music room, I have Carver AL-III speakers modified with active crossovers (Audio X-Stream), raising their effective efficiency rating from 87dB/1 watt @ 1 meter to 90dB (thus doubling effective power compared to the passive crossovers). I have 350 watts into 4 Ohms going to the 10" woofer/sub-woofer (whatever you want to call them; they're flat to 30Hz and have useful output to 27Hz, reinforced with a wood floor and extended hallway acting like a bass tube trap that keeps bass very even all the way down). The back of the cabinets are 3 feet from the front walls (they are 48" dipole ribbon radiators above the woofer box). The ribbons are powered by a Class A/AB amplifier providing up to 180 watts (into the now fully resistive 4 Ohm load thanks to the active crossover using inductors) to the ribbons. I've measured 114 dB pink noise peaks.

I've since added an old Technics outboard surround decoder so I can keep my fully analog sonic holography enabled pre-amp for fully analog turntable playback, etc. and have Klipsch surround satellite speakers and rear channel 8" sub for 4.0 playback on that system (occasional movies where I want to sit near the kitchen and/or some TV shows not to mention several music surround albums in DTS or SACD that simply sound better on the Carvers than the PSBs, even with an imperfect surround match. There is no compensation of any kind used. In fact, I used to run an audiophile CD review site from 1996 to 2006 called The Audiophile Asylum using that system (two-channel only at the time).



It (referring to Thor 3 that supposedly sounds WORSE than Black Panther) sounds better than "fine". It sounds excellent at volume. It's not the "best" I've ever heard, but it's nowhere NEAR a slouch either. Once level matched, I'd probably give it 7.5 out of 10 (10 being the best I've heard so far).

I did think something was off at first because the levels are down about 12-15dB below most "average" films. But that puts it at 0 to -3dB (not exactly out of range) and as I said, if you CONVERT the soundtrack to another format (i.e. Dolby Digital) with Handbrake, it ends up being somewhere around 8-10dB (I didn't measure directly, but compared switching back and forth) LOUDER than the original soundtrack. Whether that's JUST a volume difference or it lost some dynamic range along the way in conversion to Dolby Digital, I can't say for certain without doing some peak measuring. But I can say they sound very similar at once the volume is changed. When Thor is fighting The Hulk, there is plenty of bass, (no "leaf falling" thuds) and lots of surround effects (not "front loaded").

As I've said before (without feeling the need to send "idiot" insults like half the people in this thread that somehow think insults make me MORE likely to listen to their opinion rather than less. Just look at all the veiled and not-so-veiled "idiot" comments. I feel more like I'm at a Trump convention than a discussion forum at this point. Oh yes. I care about their comments now. Other than calling me "thick" you've been more civil so I've attempted to explain my point of view one last time. You have to understand I don't really CARE anymore. Talking to brick walls gets old and most people rolling their eyes in here or insulting me are quite the brick layers.

TL;DR. lol

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner330

TL;DR. lol

YAADSWC? lol

[KcMsterpce]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

[Show spoiler]I'm thick? Jesus.... Based on your comments about not noticing any front-loaded comments, I'm not sure you're even aware of the negative comments launched at numerous Marvel movies including not only Black Panther, but the "far worse" Thor 3. Whatever is "wrong" with these soundtracks, I'm pretty certain it's not most of the things stated about them.

I'll stick with Thor 3 since I'm waiting on Black Panther 3D to arrive and I just did a bunch of observations last night with it.

-There are no explosions that sound like a pile of leaves hitting the ground.

-The movie is NOT remotely "front loaded" with "zero" surround effects.

-It has deep bass

-It's crystal clear sound in terms of effects and dialogue.

-It is 8-15 dB (depending on the movie) lower in volume level than other studios and older Marvel titles. Yes, that's absolutely true. The question is whether that indicates something sinister or not. I'm of the opinion that if the movie was even 10dB louder (as I suggested the Dolby Digital conversion as a test to demonstrate) that MOST of the complaints in this thread about these lower volume movies would go away. Regardless of whether the dynamic range is more, less or the same, some systems simply cannot turn the volume up past 0dB. An amplifier amplifies the signal from the amplifier. If that signal is too low, it can only go so far.

Claims of dynamics can only go so far. If the movie isn't loud enough, it will sound "weak" no matter what (i.e. if the peak sound should be at 114dB and your system cannot reach 114dB due to that inadequate signal, it will sound weaker all the way down). This is going to be system dependent with a lower level regardless of whether the dynamic range is low or high.

When I say compressed sound is louder, I mean it's typically used to make things louder (by that I means softer sounds become louder. The absolute level is always determined by the system's ability to raise the volume level by the signal + pre-amp + amplifier amount (preferably without ANY clipping).

That removes every single complaint I've seen about the movie except the question of dynamics. There are only two possibilities here.

1> Assuming, the volume reaches the maximum level it should theoretically attain (e.g. let's say 114dB peaks), then as the dynamic range is lowered (more compression), it will result in the quieter sounds becoming too loud and basically blending together into a mushy sounding mess. Subtleties are lost. Nuances are lost. A lawnmower will start up at a higher volume than it should start at, etc. It starts sounding unnatural like a PA system or something to that effect the worse it gets.

2> With less compression (more dynamic range) at the same 114dB peak, you get the opposite effect (assuming the dynamic range exists in the first place; with FX use and canned sounds, etc. it's not about "natural" necessarily). The loudest sound in the movie at proper volume will be 114dB. The less loud sounds will get quieter and quieter. This sounds like it would be ideal except for the problem of human PERCEPTION.

3> If the system can't meet the volume requirement to sound where it should, it will sound WEAK regardless of the amount of dynamic range present. This is partially caused by human perception being uneven in terms of frequency response. Bass and high frequencies get progressively weaker sounding faster than the mid-range. This is why so many stereos had a "loudness" button designed to somewhat compensate for this effect (of course it was only "correct" at one volume level so it's either more or less effective where/when used).

The sad truth is that people tend to PREFER some compression when they hear it whether they believe it or not. This is partially due to the fact that it's VERY hard to hear very quiet parts in something like a symphonic orchestra without turning the volume WAY UP. The problem there is that some people don't like sudden VERY LOUD sounds. 114dB is too loud for some people in some houses and so they will not turn it up ANYWHERE NEAR that loud to begin with. Thus, instead of dialogue being at 65dB, as you say. It might only be at 50dB or even 40dB if the peaks are set to only 89dB (believe it or not many people find 90dB 'loud' and above 90dB extended listening at those levels (constant; not peak) will eventually over time result in hearing damage). At 40dB, you might even have house noises competing with the dialogue.

Psychoacoustic properties of human hearing dictate that both bass and the high end of the treble gets progressively quieter as you turn down the volume faster than the rest of the spectrum. This is also why Thor 3 gets noticeably "brighter" in my room as it approaches 0dB (DTS) as does the bass get noticeably louder. Vocals sound "OK" well before that point (as in understandable without difficulty). That however, does not mean that's where the volume level should be. And THAT is what I've been getting at with both music albums and movies that have lower average levels.

For example, Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason was their first album to be recorded fully digital (save the drums). It was panned for "bad digital sound" by many at the time. Yet oddly, the LP version was supposedly better. I happen to own both. If you import the original CD (don't know if they've "fixed" any remasters or not since) into something like Audacity, you'll find its peaks are NOWHERE NEAR 0dB. You can safely normalize the album to 0dB (or preferably just below it) and it's like 6-10dB louder (I forget exactly) with no other changes. 10dB is 2x louder sounding on average to the human ear. So someone pops in a more typical album that's normalized and perhaps heavily compressed to boot. It sounds 'x' amount loud to the listener. Now they pop in Pink Floyd's Momentary Lapse of Reason into the CD player. It's NOWHERE NEAR as loud. They turn it up. But do they turn it up ENOUGH? Were the problems with this album due to "evil digital" as some believed or was it possible they simply had it at too low a volume and never heard a valid comparison to even the band's other albums??? It wasn't just dynamic range there. The album's overall level was too low for some reason.

I've corrected it and put it back into my streaming directory with ALAC (Apple Lossless). When flipping between albums, it sounds immediately many times better to the ear without fiddling with volume controls. Worse yet, having to fiddle with the volume control makes it hard to compare quickly. Many people don't fiddle with it at all. The LP supposedly sounded better. Most moving magnet turntables would have a higher level than the CD and thus sound better at the same volume level setting.

I'm suggesting that at least SOME people are getting the same effect by either not turning up the volume enough or not being able to turn it up any farther. Compression might help to raise the volume, but it's not the best solution if one is unable to achieve the desired level. Given my setup needs 0dB to reach the level that is comparable to other Marvel movies at much lower volume settings (say -12dB), it's not much of a stretch to think that even slightly less efficient speakers or a larger room could make it impossible to reach the levels needed to sound "right". Yes, you can typically use more power, but twice my receiver's power is well into the 200 watt range and you only get 3dB more output at twice the power. 3dB is nowhere NEAR that 10dB level difference. You could possibly need well over 400-600 Watts to compensate (many speakers can't handle that much regardless) if the louder soundtracks were anywhere NEAR your maximum volume setting.



Do you seriously think the word "plague" doesn't connote an OPINION about the sound quality? Is not a plague a "negative" thing? Is this not a forum for opinions? Is your or any other these other people's opinions any less of an "opinion" that you don't care for the soundtrack on the disc?

Here's my REAL problems with the opinions expressed in this thread about more recent Marvel soundtracks:

-I was told the soundtracks have no bass. That's factually NOT TRUE and easy to prove. If one says not enough bass or not the amount needed at a given point, I wouldn't mind (subjective as it is given Skywalker Sound was in charge of these soundtracks and it's a bit like calling professionals there "rank amateurs" or the like).

- I was told the soundtrack has almost ZERO material in the surround channels ("Front Loaded" as you say). AGAIN, easy to prove FACTUALLY WRONG. Yet *I* am the one that doesn't "get" it.



"Fine" and "Fantastic" are SUBJECTIVE terms. I thought about saying fantastic or just "great" (I think I did use that one actually), but superlatives aren't graded on a 1-100 scale. Besides, regardless of what word I chose to convey that I thought the soundtrack was "not bad sounding", I would get called out by the people that have the opinion that it's just FARKING AWFUL! It's funny too because the same guy in charge of these particular soundtracks (or at least he gets the credit) at Skywalker Sound (Josh Lowden) also was in charge many of the soundtracks that people DID like. So either he is somehow randomly incompetent, just there in name or something else is going on. The sheer amount of arrogance needed to tell someone at Skywalker Sound that they're "doing it wrong" is another matter. Yet we have many here that want a petition to do just that.



Go back a few pages and read the accounts where people said it sounded TERRIBLE in the theaters too and thus ALL versions are fuxored. Now I realize I have had multiple people attack my opinions and logic, but the fact remains I don't recall any of those people arguing with the one/many that think it sucked in the theater also. Now theaters obviously vary in quality these days (what happened to THX rated cinemas? None exist any longer around here because they don't want to pay Lucasfilm when they can call it something like "XD" instead and hope people think it's the same thing or better.



Uh huh. It's that compressed soundtrack they use that just happens to also be LOW VOLUME, thus double negating the entire reason to compress the soundtrack in the first place??? Right. I'll take your word for that "random arse guess" you talked about.



Of course they're level matched with an SPL meter. LFE is set to the same reference level as everything else. Bass redirection from the main L/C/R is set +4dB to compensate for room interactions with the those speakers relative to the subwoofer crossed at 80Hz. I don't use any dynamic volume settings or compression. The speakers are all PSB with matching drivers rated +/- 1.5dB anechoic except for the 15" 250-watt powered subwoofer. The room response isn't that good, obviously, but it's not terrible either and evened out a bit with Yamaha's room correction system. Bass is surprisingly flat from about 60Hz to 20Hz (within 1.5dB) at the primary listening location and perhaps +/- 3dB above that.

Upstairs (with a piddly 48" plasma added on the wall above my Roland Piano as an after-thought six years ago seeing as it's primarily meant to be a high-end two-channel music room, I have Carver AL-III speakers modified with active crossovers (Audio X-Stream), raising their effective efficiency rating from 87dB/1 watt @ 1 meter to 90dB (thus doubling effective power compared to the passive crossovers). I have 350 watts into 4 Ohms going to the 10" woofer/sub-woofer (whatever you want to call them; they're flat to 30Hz and have useful output to 27Hz, reinforced with a wood floor and extended hallway acting like a bass tube trap that keeps bass very even all the way down). The back of the cabinets are 3 feet from the front walls (they are 48" dipole ribbon radiators above the woofer box). The ribbons are powered by a Class A/AB amplifier providing up to 180 watts (into the now fully resistive 4 Ohm load thanks to the active crossover using inductors) to the ribbons. I've measured 114 dB pink noise peaks.

I've since added an old Technics outboard surround decoder so I can keep my fully analog sonic holography enabled pre-amp for fully analog turntable playback, etc. and have Klipsch surround satellite speakers and rear channel 8" sub for 4.0 playback on that system (occasional movies where I want to sit near the kitchen and/or some TV shows not to mention several music surround albums in DTS or SACD that simply sound better on the Carvers than the PSBs, even with an imperfect surround match. There is no compensation of any kind used. In fact, I used to run an audiophile CD review site from 1996 to 2006 called The Audiophile Asylum using that system (two-channel only at the time).



It (referring to Thor 3 that supposedly sounds WORSE than Black Panther) sounds better than "fine". It sounds excellent at volume. It's not the "best" I've ever heard, but it's nowhere NEAR a slouch either. Once level matched, I'd probably give it 7.5 out of 10 (10 being the best I've heard so far).

I did think something was off at first because the levels are down about 12-15dB below most "average" films. But that puts it at 0 to -3dB (not exactly out of range) and as I said, if you CONVERT the soundtrack to another format (i.e. Dolby Digital) with Handbrake, it ends up being somewhere around 8-10dB (I didn't measure directly, but compared switching back and forth) LOUDER than the original soundtrack. Whether that's JUST a volume difference or it lost some dynamic range along the way in conversion to Dolby Digital, I can't say for certain without doing some peak measuring. But I can say they sound very similar at once the volume is changed. When Thor is fighting The Hulk, there is plenty of bass, (no "leaf falling" thuds) and lots of surround effects (not "front loaded").

As I've said before (without feeling the need to send "idiot" insults like half the people in this thread that somehow think insults make me MORE likely to listen to their opinion rather than less. Just look at all the veiled and not-so-veiled "idiot" comments. I feel more like I'm at a Trump convention than a discussion forum at this point. Oh yes. I care about their comments now. Other than calling me "thick" you've been more civil so I've attempted to explain my point of view one last time. You have to understand I don't really CARE anymore. Talking to brick walls gets old and most people rolling their eyes in here or insulting me are quite the brick layers.

Ok, so I have tweaked the **** out of my system just to cater specifically to Disney's crappy audio.
I turned the volume wayyy up. Put the sub at "5" instead of 1.5 where it's usually at.
It still sounds like shit except for the hip-hop tracks. So glad, though, because I bought the movie for the music, not the immersive storyline and sound effects. Who wants that?
How do I make it not sound shitty and un-thwumphy?

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by KcMsterpce

Ok, so I have tweaked the **** out of my system just to cater specifically to Disney's crappy audio.
I turned the volume wayyy up. Put the sub at "5" instead of 1.5 where it's usually at.
It still sounds like shit except for the hip-hop tracks. So glad, though, because I bought the movie for the music, not the immersive storyline and sound effects. Who wants that?
How do I make it not sound shitty and un-thwumphy?

Are you referring to Thor 3 or Black Panther? As I've said, I'm still waiting for Black Panther 3D to arrive so I've been referring to the comparisons to Thor 3 and others. Black Panther might very well sound crappy, but someone said it STILL sounded better than Thor 3 so that's what I've been talking about along with all the other Marvel titles that supposedly suck (I have ALL of them here except Black Panther because the 3D disc hasn't been released yet; it will be in another week or two; one person in the 3D thread says he has his already in the UK so maybe it's ahead of schedule?). I've said this like three times now.

Without having heard your system, it's hard to make suggestions. I mean it is possible it DOES sound like crap on your system. We don't all have the same equipment or rooms, after all or tastes in sound or music of that matter. I know someone that recommended all kinds of Japanese anime soundtracks for their high quality, but I found that some were way better than others (both in music and sound quality), but then my friend has two BassMax ZR18 drivers PER CHANNEL *PLUS* THREE Electro-Voice evx180b drivers per channel. He can displace over 8000cu inches of air.(

An Exclusive Tour of the Bass Pig's Lair in HD - YouTube

). 6000 watts of power! I can ask him how these sound on his system (he just added a 4K projector not long ago).

I just got my Nova Media (South Korea) All Region copy of Terminator 2 3D in finally and oddly, it has almost the exact same "average" levels as Thor 3. I have to turn the volume up to at least -2dB to be happy with the sound (0dB is better yet) and T2 is a movie I have on BD, two different DVD sets (Ultimate and regular) and THX Laserdisc. I've VERY familiar with it. Bottom line is it sounds the SAME once the levels are up to match. Why it's so much lower (around 6dB lower!) than the old BD/DVD/LD and even the UK 3D BD I don't know. (but all my 2D stuff and a SBS copy of the UK 3D version are played back through KODI on a different device so it's possible the output level is lower due to the device's output rather than the disc, but I kind of doubt it since Thor needed 0dB off KODI to sound like theatrical levels here).

Personally, I LIKE the T2 soundtrack very much, but it's not TRON: Legacy, Blade Runner 2049 or Avengers 1. But then it doesn't have to be. It's still a great movie with pretty damn nice sound and the 3D makes it even more like being there (DNR reduction and all, good or bad).

I'd really like to wait and hear Black Panther 3D's soundtrack for myself before I draw ANY conclusions about it.

But THOR 3 definitely sounded better HERE turned up to 0dB on the receiver. I didn't adjust the subwoofer at all (Sub is set to +7dB relative to satellites for slightly warm crossover for 2-channel and front channel bass that gives it a nice transition, but with LFE level on receiver set to -7dB mark for effective 0dB relative LFE bass as it's a separate channel and too loud on most movies if any higher, IMO).

The Led Zeppelin music was kind of exaggerated in the bass, IMO and the opening sequence had the sound effects turned down a bit in favor of the music (same with Guardians of Galaxy 2), but once the main movie got going it sounded pretty darn good, IMO.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by gates70

Which both suck.

That is exactly what I said...in my own words.
You and I are on the exact same page.

[r9800pro]

Disney audio issues started with Marvel movies from Thor: The Dark World. First Marvel with Disney after Paramount MCU ones. It was only low in volume. All other aspects were fine.

To some it up, here are my findings:

Thor: The Dark World: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier: Low Volume (again raising from 50% to 70%) and some inconsistency in using side and back surround channels. Still not bad.

Guardians of the Galaxy : Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 80%). Very light use of back channels even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Avengers: Age of Ultron: A total failure!. Volume had to be raised to 100% and still not enough. Audio elemets are mixed so badly that a laser cannon sounds like a silencer gun shot. No balance between music volume and sound effects volume. Very light use of back surround channels. Heavily DRCed and flat.

Ant-Man: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Captain America: Civil War: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Doctor Strange: Can't fault it.

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels (if at all) even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Some flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Spider-Man: Homecoming: This one is Sony's so it is flawless with DTS HD-MA 5.1 on BD and a bit low volume Atmos track on UHD but nothing so bad.

Thor: Ragnarok Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling with DRC applied as I think.

Black Panther: Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%) and it isn't enough!. Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling and DRCed.

Not going in details for other non-Marvel movies like Coco or Star Wars because they have the same issues and some others are fine with low volume only like Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by r9800pro

Disney audio issues started with Marvel movies from Thor: The Dark World. First Marvel with Disney after Paramount MCU ones. It was only low in volume. All other aspects were fine.

To some it up, here are my findings:

Thor: The Dark World: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier: Low Volume (again raising from 50% to 70%) and some inconsistency in using side and back surround channels. Still not bad.

Guardians of the Galaxy : Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 80%). Very light use of back channels even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Avengers: Age of Ultron: A total failure!. Volume had to be raised to 100% and still not enough. Audio elemets are mixed so badly that a laser cannon sounds like a silencer gun shot. No balance between music volume and sound effects volume. Very light use of back surround channels. Heavily DRCed and flat.

Ant-Man: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Captain America: Civil War: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Doctor Strange: Can't fault it.

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels (if at all) even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Some flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Spider-Man: Homecoming: This one is Sony's so it is flawless with DTS HD-MA 5.1 on BD and a bit low volume Atmos track on UHD but nothing so bad.

Thor: Ragnarok Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling with DRC applied as I think.

Black Panther: Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%) and it isn't enough!. Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling and DRCed.

Not going in details for other non-Marvel movies like Coco or Star Wars because they have the same issues and some others are fine with low volume only like Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales.

Sorry but GoG Vol.1 and Winter Soldier have great soundtracks

[r9800pro]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

Sorry but GoG Vol.1 and Winter Soldier have great soundtracks

Good not great and definitely not flawless.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by r9800pro

Disney audio issues started with Marvel movies from Thor: The Dark World. First Marvel with Disney after Paramount MCU ones. It was only low in volume. All other aspects were fine.

To some it up, here are my finding

Other than the question of whether the surround use was sufficient in some cases (e.g. There seemed to be plenty in the action sequences I reviewed for Ragnarok recently, but I didn't have time to re-watch the entire movie so it could be true in other spots on the movie), this sounds like pretty reasonable findings. Most of the titles have the volume too low (normalizing in an editor seems to raise it up quite a bit in most cases) and there does seem to be some reduction in certain places with bass hit range, although without a theatrical frame of comparison, it's hard to tell what was subjective choices and what might have been reduced for home use or whatever. There's still the question of why these volume reductions exist, etc. Lowering the absolute level by itself doesn't seem to have any practical benefit.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

Other than the question of whether the surround use was sufficient in some cases (e.g. There seemed to be plenty in the action sequences I reviewed for Ragnarok recently, but I didn't have time to re-watch the entire movie so it could be true in other spots on the movie), this sounds like pretty reasonable findings. Most of the titles have the volume too low (normalizing in an editor seems to raise it up quite a bit in most cases) and there does seem to be some reduction in certain places with bass hit range, although without a theatrical frame of comparison, it's hard to tell what was subjective choices and what might have been reduced for home use or whatever. There's still the question of why these volume reductions exist, etc. Lowering the absolute level by itself doesn't seem to have any practical benefit.

It's pretty obvious. Disney is trying to take it easy on the kiddies' ears and the lesser sound reproduction devices like soundbars and TV speakers.



They're no longer interested in full-throttled, top-notch home theater systems.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

[Show spoiler]I'm thick? Jesus.... Based on your comments about not noticing any front-loaded comments, I'm not sure you're even aware of the negative comments launched at numerous Marvel movies including not only Black Panther, but the "far worse" Thor 3. Whatever is "wrong" with these soundtracks, I'm pretty certain it's not most of the things stated about them.

I'll stick with Thor 3 since I'm waiting on Black Panther 3D to arrive and I just did a bunch of observations last night with it.

-There are no explosions that sound like a pile of leaves hitting the ground.

-The movie is NOT remotely "front loaded" with "zero" surround effects.

-It has deep bass

-It's crystal clear sound in terms of effects and dialogue.

-It is 8-15 dB (depending on the movie) lower in volume level than other studios and older Marvel titles. Yes, that's absolutely true. The question is whether that indicates something sinister or not. I'm of the opinion that if the movie was even 10dB louder (as I suggested the Dolby Digital conversion as a test to demonstrate) that MOST of the complaints in this thread about these lower volume movies would go away. Regardless of whether the dynamic range is more, less or the same, some systems simply cannot turn the volume up past 0dB. An amplifier amplifies the signal from the amplifier. If that signal is too low, it can only go so far.

Claims of dynamics can only go so far. If the movie isn't loud enough, it will sound "weak" no matter what (i.e. if the peak sound should be at 114dB and your system cannot reach 114dB due to that inadequate signal, it will sound weaker all the way down). This is going to be system dependent with a lower level regardless of whether the dynamic range is low or high.

When I say compressed sound is louder, I mean it's typically used to make things louder (by that I means softer sounds become louder. The absolute level is always determined by the system's ability to raise the volume level by the signal + pre-amp + amplifier amount (preferably without ANY clipping).

That removes every single complaint I've seen about the movie except the question of dynamics. There are only two possibilities here.

1> Assuming, the volume reaches the maximum level it should theoretically attain (e.g. let's say 114dB peaks), then as the dynamic range is lowered (more compression), it will result in the quieter sounds becoming too loud and basically blending together into a mushy sounding mess. Subtleties are lost. Nuances are lost. A lawnmower will start up at a higher volume than it should start at, etc. It starts sounding unnatural like a PA system or something to that effect the worse it gets.

2> With less compression (more dynamic range) at the same 114dB peak, you get the opposite effect (assuming the dynamic range exists in the first place; with FX use and canned sounds, etc. it's not about "natural" necessarily). The loudest sound in the movie at proper volume will be 114dB. The less loud sounds will get quieter and quieter. This sounds like it would be ideal except for the problem of human PERCEPTION.

3> If the system can't meet the volume requirement to sound where it should, it will sound WEAK regardless of the amount of dynamic range present. This is partially caused by human perception being uneven in terms of frequency response. Bass and high frequencies get progressively weaker sounding faster than the mid-range. This is why so many stereos had a "loudness" button designed to somewhat compensate for this effect (of course it was only "correct" at one volume level so it's either more or less effective where/when used).

The sad truth is that people tend to PREFER some compression when they hear it whether they believe it or not. This is partially due to the fact that it's VERY hard to hear very quiet parts in something like a symphonic orchestra without turning the volume WAY UP. The problem there is that some people don't like sudden VERY LOUD sounds. 114dB is too loud for some people in some houses and so they will not turn it up ANYWHERE NEAR that loud to begin with. Thus, instead of dialogue being at 65dB, as you say. It might only be at 50dB or even 40dB if the peaks are set to only 89dB (believe it or not many people find 90dB 'loud' and above 90dB extended listening at those levels (constant; not peak) will eventually over time result in hearing damage). At 40dB, you might even have house noises competing with the dialogue.

Psychoacoustic properties of human hearing dictate that both bass and the high end of the treble gets progressively quieter as you turn down the volume faster than the rest of the spectrum. This is also why Thor 3 gets noticeably "brighter" in my room as it approaches 0dB (DTS) as does the bass get noticeably louder. Vocals sound "OK" well before that point (as in understandable without difficulty). That however, does not mean that's where the volume level should be. And THAT is what I've been getting at with both music albums and movies that have lower average levels.

For example, Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason was their first album to be recorded fully digital (save the drums). It was panned for "bad digital sound" by many at the time. Yet oddly, the LP version was supposedly better. I happen to own both. If you import the original CD (don't know if they've "fixed" any remasters or not since) into something like Audacity, you'll find its peaks are NOWHERE NEAR 0dB. You can safely normalize the album to 0dB (or preferably just below it) and it's like 6-10dB louder (I forget exactly) with no other changes. 10dB is 2x louder sounding on average to the human ear. So someone pops in a more typical album that's normalized and perhaps heavily compressed to boot. It sounds 'x' amount loud to the listener. Now they pop in Pink Floyd's Momentary Lapse of Reason into the CD player. It's NOWHERE NEAR as loud. They turn it up. But do they turn it up ENOUGH? Were the problems with this album due to "evil digital" as some believed or was it possible they simply had it at too low a volume and never heard a valid comparison to even the band's other albums??? It wasn't just dynamic range there. The album's overall level was too low for some reason.

I've corrected it and put it back into my streaming directory with ALAC (Apple Lossless). When flipping between albums, it sounds immediately many times better to the ear without fiddling with volume controls. Worse yet, having to fiddle with the volume control makes it hard to compare quickly. Many people don't fiddle with it at all. The LP supposedly sounded better. Most moving magnet turntables would have a higher level than the CD and thus sound better at the same volume level setting.

I'm suggesting that at least SOME people are getting the same effect by either not turning up the volume enough or not being able to turn it up any farther. Compression might help to raise the volume, but it's not the best solution if one is unable to achieve the desired level. Given my setup needs 0dB to reach the level that is comparable to other Marvel movies at much lower volume settings (say -12dB), it's not much of a stretch to think that even slightly less efficient speakers or a larger room could make it impossible to reach the levels needed to sound "right". Yes, you can typically use more power, but twice my receiver's power is well into the 200 watt range and you only get 3dB more output at twice the power. 3dB is nowhere NEAR that 10dB level difference. You could possibly need well over 400-600 Watts to compensate (many speakers can't handle that much regardless) if the louder soundtracks were anywhere NEAR your maximum volume setting.



Do you seriously think the word "plague" doesn't connote an OPINION about the sound quality? Is not a plague a "negative" thing? Is this not a forum for opinions? Is your or any other these other people's opinions any less of an "opinion" that you don't care for the soundtrack on the disc?

Here's my REAL problems with the opinions expressed in this thread about more recent Marvel soundtracks:

-I was told the soundtracks have no bass. That's factually NOT TRUE and easy to prove. If one says not enough bass or not the amount needed at a given point, I wouldn't mind (subjective as it is given Skywalker Sound was in charge of these soundtracks and it's a bit like calling professionals there "rank amateurs" or the like).

- I was told the soundtrack has almost ZERO material in the surround channels ("Front Loaded" as you say). AGAIN, easy to prove FACTUALLY WRONG. Yet *I* am the one that doesn't "get" it.



"Fine" and "Fantastic" are SUBJECTIVE terms. I thought about saying fantastic or just "great" (I think I did use that one actually), but superlatives aren't graded on a 1-100 scale. Besides, regardless of what word I chose to convey that I thought the soundtrack was "not bad sounding", I would get called out by the people that have the opinion that it's just FARKING AWFUL! It's funny too because the same guy in charge of these particular soundtracks (or at least he gets the credit) at Skywalker Sound (Josh Lowden) also was in charge many of the soundtracks that people DID like. So either he is somehow randomly incompetent, just there in name or something else is going on. The sheer amount of arrogance needed to tell someone at Skywalker Sound that they're "doing it wrong" is another matter. Yet we have many here that want a petition to do just that.



Go back a few pages and read the accounts where people said it sounded TERRIBLE in the theaters too and thus ALL versions are fuxored. Now I realize I have had multiple people attack my opinions and logic, but the fact remains I don't recall any of those people arguing with the one/many that think it sucked in the theater also. Now theaters obviously vary in quality these days (what happened to THX rated cinemas? None exist any longer around here because they don't want to pay Lucasfilm when they can call it something like "XD" instead and hope people think it's the same thing or better.



Uh huh. It's that compressed soundtrack they use that just happens to also be LOW VOLUME, thus double negating the entire reason to compress the soundtrack in the first place??? Right. I'll take your word for that "random arse guess" you talked about.



Of course they're level matched with an SPL meter. LFE is set to the same reference level as everything else. Bass redirection from the main L/C/R is set +4dB to compensate for room interactions with the those speakers relative to the subwoofer crossed at 80Hz. I don't use any dynamic volume settings or compression. The speakers are all PSB with matching drivers rated +/- 1.5dB anechoic except for the 15" 250-watt powered subwoofer. The room response isn't that good, obviously, but it's not terrible either and evened out a bit with Yamaha's room correction system. Bass is surprisingly flat from about 60Hz to 20Hz (within 1.5dB) at the primary listening location and perhaps +/- 3dB above that.

Upstairs (with a piddly 48" plasma added on the wall above my Roland Piano as an after-thought six years ago seeing as it's primarily meant to be a high-end two-channel music room, I have Carver AL-III speakers modified with active crossovers (Audio X-Stream), raising their effective efficiency rating from 87dB/1 watt @ 1 meter to 90dB (thus doubling effective power compared to the passive crossovers). I have 350 watts into 4 Ohms going to the 10" woofer/sub-woofer (whatever you want to call them; they're flat to 30Hz and have useful output to 27Hz, reinforced with a wood floor and extended hallway acting like a bass tube trap that keeps bass very even all the way down). The back of the cabinets are 3 feet from the front walls (they are 48" dipole ribbon radiators above the woofer box). The ribbons are powered by a Class A/AB amplifier providing up to 180 watts (into the now fully resistive 4 Ohm load thanks to the active crossover using inductors) to the ribbons. I've measured 114 dB pink noise peaks.

I've since added an old Technics outboard surround decoder so I can keep my fully analog sonic holography enabled pre-amp for fully analog turntable playback, etc. and have Klipsch surround satellite speakers and rear channel 8" sub for 4.0 playback on that system (occasional movies where I want to sit near the kitchen and/or some TV shows not to mention several music surround albums in DTS or SACD that simply sound better on the Carvers than the PSBs, even with an imperfect surround match. There is no compensation of any kind used. In fact, I used to run an audiophile CD review site from 1996 to 2006 called The Audiophile Asylum using that system (two-channel only at the time).



It (referring to Thor 3 that supposedly sounds WORSE than Black Panther) sounds better than "fine". It sounds excellent at volume. It's not the "best" I've ever heard, but it's nowhere NEAR a slouch either. Once level matched, I'd probably give it 7.5 out of 10 (10 being the best I've heard so far).

I did think something was off at first because the levels are down about 12-15dB below most "average" films. But that puts it at 0 to -3dB (not exactly out of range) and as I said, if you CONVERT the soundtrack to another format (i.e. Dolby Digital) with Handbrake, it ends up being somewhere around 8-10dB (I didn't measure directly, but compared switching back and forth) LOUDER than the original soundtrack. Whether that's JUST a volume difference or it lost some dynamic range along the way in conversion to Dolby Digital, I can't say for certain without doing some peak measuring. But I can say they sound very similar at once the volume is changed. When Thor is fighting The Hulk, there is plenty of bass, (no "leaf falling" thuds) and lots of surround effects (not "front loaded").

As I've said before (without feeling the need to send "idiot" insults like half the people in this thread that somehow think insults make me MORE likely to listen to their opinion rather than less. Just look at all the veiled and not-so-veiled "idiot" comments. I feel more like I'm at a Trump convention than a discussion forum at this point. Oh yes. I care about their comments now. Other than calling me "thick" you've been more civil so I've attempted to explain my point of view one last time. You have to understand I don't really CARE anymore. Talking to brick walls gets old and most people rolling their eyes in here or insulting me are quite the brick layers.

Ouch! I thought for a moment that I was in the Black Panther 3D thread with a new remixed 3D Dolby Atmos immersive and highly elevated soundtrack.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by r9800pro

Disney audio issues started with Marvel movies from Thor: The Dark World. First Marvel with Disney after Paramount MCU ones. It was only low in volume. All other aspects were fine.

To some it up, here are my findings:

Thor: The Dark World: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier: Low Volume (again raising from 50% to 70%) and some inconsistency in using side and back surround channels. Still not bad.

Guardians of the Galaxy : Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 80%). Very light use of back channels even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Avengers: Age of Ultron: A total failure!. Volume had to be raised to 100% and still not enough. Audio elemets are mixed so badly that a laser cannon sounds like a silencer gun shot. No balance between music volume and sound effects volume. Very light use of back surround channels. Heavily DRCed and flat.

Ant-Man: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Captain America: Civil War: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Doctor Strange: Can't fault it.

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels (if at all) even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Some flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Spider-Man: Homecoming: This one is Sony's so it is flawless with DTS HD-MA 5.1 on BD and a bit low volume Atmos track on UHD but nothing so bad.

Thor: Ragnarok Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling with DRC applied as I think.

Black Panther: Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%) and it isn't enough!. Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling and DRCed.

Not going in details for other non-Marvel movies like Coco or Star Wars because they have the same issues and some others are fine with low volume only like Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales.

That is pretty good man, very much reflects my own findings.
And same with Coco and Star Wars flicks.

Disney should take notice of Denis Villeneuve, Christopher Nolan, Mel Gibson and Ridley Scott's films...audio soundtracks and sound effect recording mixes.

[mar3o]

Most receivers (all receivers?) have an option for audio compression, or "night mode" as they sometimes call it, in the menu options, which compresses the audio, bringing the quieter and louder parts closer together, to avoid having to crank up the audio to hear the dialogue, just to be blasted out of the room when something loud happens. Thus "night mode" - so you can use that feature at night so as to not get knocks on your door from your apartment neighbors.

Now we can argue whether Disney is setting their audio levels too low overall, but what VonMagnum is saying about audio compression is correct.

[ROSS.T.G.]

I don’t think anyone has argued about AVR dynamic range compression. They are arguing that Disney’s soundtracks are subpar due to lack of dynamic range.

I’m going to get an angry quote from Van Nostrand now. I mean VonMagnum...

[StingingVelvet]

"I'm done and will not argue anymore!" followed by dozens of posts with multiple paragraphs each in them is my ultimate internet pet peeve.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by r9800pro

[Show spoiler]Disney audio issues started with Marvel movies from Thor: The Dark World. First Marvel with Disney after Paramount MCU ones. It was only low in volume. All other aspects were fine.

To some it up, here are my findings:

Thor: The Dark World: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier: Low Volume (again raising from 50% to 70%) and some inconsistency in using side and back surround channels. Still not bad.

Guardians of the Galaxy : Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 80%). Very light use of back channels even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Avengers: Age of Ultron: A total failure!. Volume had to be raised to 100% and still not enough. Audio elemets are mixed so badly that a laser cannon sounds like a silencer gun shot. No balance between music volume and sound effects volume. Very light use of back surround channels. Heavily DRCed and flat.

Ant-Man: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Captain America: Civil War: Low Volume. Fixed with raising the volume from the usual 50% to 70%. No other issues.

Doctor Strange: Can't fault it.

[Show spoiler]Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: Even lower Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels (if at all) even when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Some flat feeling like there is DRC applied. Still not so bad.

Spider-Man: Homecoming: This one is Sony's so it is flawless with DTS HD-MA 5.1 on BD and a bit low volume Atmos track on UHD but nothing so bad.

Thor: Ragnarok Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%). Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling with DRC applied as I think.

Black Panther: Very Low Volume (had to raise from 50% to 100%) and it isn't enough!. Very light use of back channels if at all when on-screen action suggests they should be engaged. Overall flat feeling and DRCed.

Not going in details for other non-Marvel movies like Coco or Star Wars because they have the same issues and some others are fine with low volume only like Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales.

Glad you said this. Last I rewatched this, I noticed that the audio was surprisingly... fine.