What does the "approved" 51GB HD DVD mean for Blu-ray?

[Mpalmieri1203]

Not swinging one way or the other just trying to get some opinions on it. I would imagine they might be rather difficult to produce much like the double layer BDs. But perhaps it is a tried and true formula at this point?? This was post up by someone at AVS:


http://www.screendigest.com/online_s...60907-ec3/show
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreenDigest
DVD Forum approves 'bigger than Blu-ray' HD DVD
07 Sep 07
Country: China, USA
Source: Online Services/Intelligence/Video and DVD/Updates

The DVD Forum, the international DVD standards authority, has approved a 51 GB single-sided triple-layer HD DVD disc for production. Extension to the HD DVD standard, which was submitted by Toshiba in April, received approval on 31 August 2007. Other recent developments include:

A single-sided triple-layer HD DVD/DVD hybrid (combi) disc, the DVD layer of which would be playable by legacy DVD players, is expected to be approved before the year end.

The Forum has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with China's Optical Memory National Engineering Research Centre (OMNERC) regarding licensing of the HD DVD-ROM China (formerly HD DVD-ROM China-only) format, specification for which was approved earlier this year. The only difference between the latter and the standard HD DVD format is the modulation scheme: the optical pickup in HD DVD China player will be able to play standard HD DVD discs, although Chinese discs will not be playable in standard HD DVD drives. According to the Forum, the Chinese government is keen to introduce the format domestically before the Olympic Games in August 2008. Large-scale integrates (LSIs) are already under development by manufacturers and use of AACS for the format is currently under negotiation.


Our take...

The approval of Toshiba's 51 GB disc is good news for the HD DVD camp, allowing it to compete directly with rival Blu-ray Disc's (BD) dual-layer 50 GB disc. As with the BD50, it is likely to take some time for production yields to reach a commercially viable level. However, once this has been achieved it will arguably eliminate one of the principle reasons behind some studios' support of Blu-ray over HD DVD, thus potentially making it easier for Disney or Fox to adopt a format-agnostic position without losing face. Meanwhile, the development of a triple-layer single-sided hybrid HD DVD/DVD disc will also be welcomed by HD DVD supporters. Both Warner and Universal have been releasing double-sided hybrids in the US for some time but they have yet to use this approach in Europe.

Single-sided hybrids (sometimes called 'twin format' discs) offer the same space for promotional printing as traditional optical discs and do not require the consumer to think about which way to put them into the player. Anime title Freedom was released in the US as a single-sided hybrid in June but its capacity (15 GB HD DVD and 4.7 GB DVD) was not sufficient for a major studio release. The approval by the Forum of a triple-layer hybrid might arguably encourage some studios to release certain titles only on HD DVD/DVD hybrids, which could in turn lead to some DVD buyers building up a library of HD DVD titles by default, before making the decision to upgrade to a hi-def video player. So far there have been no indications that the BD camp plans to support hybrid discs.
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[Proteus]

Ultimately, it will mean little if anything.

I would be surprised if we ever see movies on this format before the end of this 'war' (which I'm staying optimistic on ending very soon).

[MrBogey]

It means there will be a lot of HD DVD fanatics trying hopelessly to spin this as a good thing considering its yield rate will be low, it'll obsolete a large chunk of their players, and remove any cost benefit it claims.

[blubyyou]

Originally Posted by MrBogey

It means there will be a lot of HD DVD fanatics trying hopelessly to spin this as a good thing considering its yield rate will be low, it'll obsolete a large chunk of their players, and remove any cost benefit it claims.

Actually it is said a simple firmware update will allow this disk to work all teh way back to the G1 players. I heard it was tested by NEC who helped design the laser technology for it that it was to work on up to 4 layers so I guess we will have to wait and see. It does keep getting interesting though doesn't it especially with RiData having a 10 layer 250 GB disk that can be utalised for either format not that either could read a 10 layer disk at this time.

[navychop]

I rather doubt that. There was no indication that HD DVD planned ahead for higher capacity. Wouldn't they have mentioned the upgrade capability if they planned on it?

[blubyyou]

Originally Posted by navychop

I rather doubt that. There was no indication that HD DVD planned ahead for higher capacity. Wouldn't they have mentioned the upgrade capability if they planned on it?

I will have to find the info it was a few months ago when I was looking into the technology to try and make a choice on which format to back as of now I still have not decided. Once I dig it up I will post it here.

[Mpalmieri1203]

Originally Posted by MrBogey

It means there will be a lot of HD DVD fanatics trying hopelessly to spin this as a good thing considering its yield rate will be low, it'll obsolete a large chunk of their players, and remove any cost benefit it claims.

Can you provide me with evidence of current production yields?? I'm very interested to read up on this! I do know that these discs are backwards compat.

[MrBogey]

Originally Posted by Mpalmieri1203

Can you provide me with evidence of current production yields?? I'm very interested to read up on this! I do know that these discs are backwards compat.

The production yield saga has been run down and beaten to death. BD-50 yields are not god awful. HD DVD combos.... yea....

Anywhere. Post the link that "proves" that all HD DVD players will work.

I know what you're doing

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Mpalmieri1203

Can you provide me with evidence of current production yields?? I'm very interested to read up on this! I do know that these discs are backwards compat.

The TL51 is like a flipper (DVD-14 or HD DVD-15/DVD-9 combo) with the bonding layer being optically transparent thus allowing the laser to get to the L2 layer on the "other" side of the disc.

David Vaughn can't get yield numbers on the combos. We know they fail for people in the wild. And the combos don't need the glue layer to be optically pure.

The discs can be physically made. Cinram made some last year. But, they complained about a lack of a reference player for testing. One would assume they are able to actually test them now, and get a proper yield figure. Although, you would have thought the same thing about HD DVD combos, and yet they fail for consumers regularly.

And that may be the issue. There may not be any automated testing process that reliably detects a problem.

Gary

[lch]

in the other thread, 'toshiba employee' already say their player cannot play anything more than 2 layers. and we thought they always boast 30gb is more than enough ?

and if 3 layers come out, they will 'hit another wall' trying to get the yield number.

[Jamh]

It means the Redheads have Blu-envy.

[navychop]

The new format is approved. See this article.

So current HD DVD players really will be obsolete. No current HD DVD player will be able to play future triple layer HD DVD discs. They'll just play the standard DVD version, if it's a combo disk.

"30GB is plenty!" - Yeah, right. I think that was disproved, and now this adoption seals it.

Interesting that they did not announce it at CEDIA, even though it was approved on 8/31/07. Just quietly announced afterwards, out of the glare of the spotlights.

Perhaps we should help get the word out. //insert smirking devil here//

So what do you guys think this will do to HD DVD player sales?


on edit: somebody types faster than me- just noticed other thread

[j_rocca42]

I think that the "30 gigs is plenty" line is a classic! it obviously wasn't and now they're gonna pay for it. what happens, when and if, BD decides to start using triple layer disks at 75 gigs total. that'll really blow HD-DUD out of the water.

[bferr1]

But... but... but HD DVD people love to rip into Blu-ray over Profile 1.1/2.0 because HD DVD is a settled standard and no one is forced to buy another HD DVD player ever again due to changing specs.

Another talking point bites the dust.

[Mpalmieri1203]

Originally Posted by bferr1

But... but... but HD DVD people love to rip into Blu-ray over Profile 1.1/2.0 because HD DVD is a settled standard and no one is forced to buy another HD DVD player ever again due to changing specs.

Another talking point bites the dust.

But since the standard is set these discs will have to play on previous players.....

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Mpalmieri1203

But since the standard is set these discs will have to play on previous players.....

You should all go over to the "Insiders Thread". There is some hilarious stuff being said about this news. If movies are put on 3-layer hd-dvds, it will be a disaster for the format. Besides, hasn't there already been 2 companies that have shown 100 gb 4-layer Blu discs? Bring it on!!!

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Mpalmieri1203

But since the standard is set these discs will have to play on previous players.....

No, they don't. There's lots of dialogue going on right now over on AVS and the more highly informed non-fanboys are citing numerous physical reasons why they most likely will not. Even Amir is claiming he doesn't know and preparing folks for possible compatibility issues:

"Testing is going to start soon. Until then, there is no answer.

Please keep in mind that just because the format gets approved, it doesn't mean it gets used. So if TL-51 is not compatible with current players, the studios may choose to not adopt it and its applications will remain for specialized situations where this doesn't matter."

[gvortex7]

Originally Posted by j_rocca42

I think that the "30 gigs is plenty" line is a classic! it obviously wasn't and now they're gonna pay for it. what happens, when and if, BD decides to start using triple layer disks at 75 gigs total. that'll really blow HD-DUD out of the water.

I don't think Blu-ray will ever use a triple layer disc. They'll go straight to 100GB (quadruple layer) when the format is ready for it.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by navychop

The new format is approved. See this article.

So current HD DVD players really will be obsolete. No current HD DVD player will be able to play future triple layer HD DVD discs. They'll just play the standard DVD version, if it's a combo disk.

"30GB is plenty!" - Yeah, right. I think that was disproved, and now this adoption seals it.

Interesting that they did not announce it at CEDIA, even though it was approved on 8/31/07. Just quietly announced afterwards, out of the glare of the spotlights.

Perhaps we should help get the word out. //insert smirking devil here//

So what do you guys think this will do to HD DVD player sales?


on edit: somebody types faster than me- just noticed other thread

Truthfully, I doubt they'll actually start using these discs. As they've been saying, "30gb is enough!" But seriously, I think once they start testing these discs out they'll realize that there's so many errors when playing them on most HD-DVD players. I can only imagine what it'll do to the 360 add on, since that even has problems playing combo discs.

[Icemage]

What will be interesting is to see the fallout from the yield rates on any discs that try to go to production.

For all of the smack HD DVD supporters have been talking lately about BD50, it's a given that any triple layer disc (be it TL51, or HD30/DVD5) will have significant manufacturing challenges, since... ahem... none of the existing lines can produce these things.