TV Rants thread (Show deaths, ratings, anger at networks etc.) - Blu-ray Forum

Groo The Perverted · 05-18-2011, 10:36 PM

So with so many of my favorite shows getting the axe this past year (Lie To Me, Chicago Code, Terriers, Human Target, The Event, just to name a few), it got me wondering. The suits always talk about "ratings" and the lack of them for specific shows. However, is that really something that we actually control?

They use, as far as I know, the Nielson system, which means ONLY those with Nielson boxes get counted for the ratings. And someone posted before, I think it was Wyldeman, that there are only like 25,000 boxes out there in the country? If so, that brings up a very serious situation here.

If say 2 million people are watching a show, and yet there are only 25,000 boxes out there, of which say 5,000 of them are watching that show, how is that a fair representation of a show's true audience?

When I saw it posted that there were that few boxes out there that just made my head spin. How can they just cancel and renew shows based on such a limited number? That's like a political poll interviewing fifty people and trying to make that indicative of what the country feels about a candidate. or political issue.

So at that end, does it REALLY matter what we watch, if we don't have a box? All these "watch show X this week and get the ratings up so the studios know that we are wanting the show to come back" are all for naught, are they not? Because no matter how many people are watching it, if they don't have a Nielson box, they are not being counted.

Or am I misreading the way this thing is done?

Alpha · 05-19-2011, 12:24 AM

I've always saw it as popularity. If a show is popular enough, it doesn't matter. The "box watchers" alone would be enough to satisfy expected ratings. And really, I don't think there's any other practical method to measure ratings besides DVR numbers.

Think of shows like Firefly. Cancelled. Wasn't as popular, but became popular after word spread of how awesome it was.

So basically, no, I don't think it matters much if we watch our favorite shows. What matters is if a good amount happen to watch AND like our favorite shows.

Mr_Bester · 05-19-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha

I...And really, I don't think there's any other practical method to measure ratings besides DVR numbers.
....

Unfortunately, the current way to count DVR numbers is only those with Nielsen Boxes get their DVRs counted

WyldeMan45 · 05-19-2011, 12:30 AM

The Nielsen boxes are incredibly outdated and completely pointless at this time. Until they learn to factor in DVR ratings into their actual figures as well as internet viewing like Hulu, shows people actual love and watch will never be represented. That's why I haven't watched anything live in 7 years. If it's not on my DVR then I don't watch it. We don't matter and that's the simple fact.

detective392 · 05-19-2011, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

The Nielsen boxes are incredibly outdated and completely pointless at this time. Until they learn to factor in DVR ratings into their actual figures as well as internet viewing like Hulu, shows people actual love and watch will never be represented. That's why I haven't watched anything live in 7 years. If it's not on my DVR then I don't watch it. We don't matter and that's the simple fact.

Exactly I don't have a ratings box so to me it doesn't matter if I watch it via download or just wait till DVD's come out. I don't think I've watched anything live this whole TV season actually. If I had a ratings box I would watch live but my viewing habits don't matter so I don't bother with live viewing.

Groo The Perverted · 05-19-2011, 12:55 AM

my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't.

So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

WyldeMan45 · 05-19-2011, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't.

So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

Or as I prefer to call them STUPID.

detective392 · 05-19-2011, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't.

So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

Or as I prefer to call them STUPID.

Defiantly agree if I mattered in ratings I would watch them live but I don't so no matter how I watch the shows it doesn't affect anything.

jouille · 05-19-2011, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDMe

What they really need... is to establish some kind of universal format for reporting... then allow it to be programmed into cable and satellite set-top boxes (whether they be DVR or not)... and then you have the option (something clear and easy to select) to enable or disable the direct reporting of your choice of viewing.

In order to be valid... you would have to leave it enabled for some minimum time period or your votes would be thrown out... to keep people from turning it on while they watch one thing but turning it off for other things. You'd either have to be always on or you wouldn't count.

That would provide a way to count everybody except OTA viewers who are viewing directly on their TVs without cable or satellite.

As long as it is a clear opt-in scenario (disabled by default) then it would satisfy privacy rules... and IF you chose to disable yours, then you'd have no right or reason to complain if your show got cancelled since you chose not to have your vote counted.

That makes sense; therefore, it will never happen.

KilloWertz · 05-19-2011, 02:59 AM

As others have said, nope. The only shows I watch live are all the shows I watch on USA and also Justified. Otherwise I either just watch my shows on Blu-ray or record them. If it was possible, I'd watch the majority of the shows on Blu-ray actually so I didn't have to deal with multiple breaks during a season.

Walts Ghost · 05-19-2011, 03:39 AM

This is why I rarely watch things live anymore. None of us matter to the guys in the office killing our favorite shows. Why should I watch live then? We're not even factored into what they cancel in the long run. It's a flawed system that seriously needs to be worked out.

HDMe · 05-19-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groo The Perverted

Actually I believe they rate these things based on 15 or 30 minute increments (much like time clocks at work).

I've seen ratings articles talking about how something did good in the first 15-30 minutes, but then dropped off.

True... I was just meaning that they would need (in my suggestion) to make you leave the tracking on more than just for the hour you are watching your favorite show. Some people, for example, would like to turn it off while they watch their PPV adult movie so no one knows they are watching it... then turn tracking back on for their other shows... but I think any valid tracking would have to require that you keep the system on the majority of the time to ensure it was really accurately measuring your viewing habits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyldeMan45

There should be some kind of rating system, were you can score your thoughts on a star rating 1-5 at the end of an episode which is only accessible after you've viewed the entire episode. It would allow a proper rating based on people who actually viewed the series.

Something along the lines of how eBay changed it so you could only rate a person with whom you had a transaction. In the early days, you could leave feedback for anyone... Same thing was true on iTunes for a while too, where you could leave feedback for something you had not bought.

I think it's fair to only let people rate something that they watched all the way through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

This is why I rarely watch things live anymore. None of us matter to the guys in the office killing our favorite shows. Why should I watch live then? We're not even factored into what they cancel in the long run. It's a flawed system that seriously needs to be worked out.

Yep... Knowing that my viewing habits really aren't counted, but are extrapolated from their nielsen families... well, it tells me that my watching it live doesn't matter to them since they don't want to count me.

EricJ · 05-19-2011, 10:32 AM

I'm convinced--and I'm not trying to be funny, here--networks no longer care at ALL whether we're watching on Monday at 9pm or not. It's not what the business is about anymore.

We've moved on to other options--like VOD and Hulu--that let us stagger our schedules and skip commercials, that networks now take their product completely to those avenues. And at every end credits now advertise "If you missed the show, catch it again at ABC.com!"
Programs are now a bulk commodity: No catchy opening themes, end credits scrolling by in a squooshed corner of the screen, and the next show loaded up within seconds, with no commercials in between.

So why are networks still airing them at all, instead of abandoning "obsolete" broadcast? Unfortunately, it's that one old relic: Advertisers paid to make the show, and the contract says the network airs them.
Doesn't matter whether the network staggers the show on a different night every week, or airs it three times in one week, as long as it's shown, their job is done, and it's on to the Blu-ray and download sales.
Practically the only way the networks know we're watching at all anymore is whether we're talking about the shows, which is why they all descend on Facebook marketing like vultures.

(In our next lesson, the "24 vs. Dancing With the Stars" polarization of series into homemade vaudeville/reality and complex season-long serial arcs.
Geez, I miss the days when somebody said "Tuesday" and you thought Happy Days, or "Thursday" and you thought Cheers.

)

racefreak619 · 05-19-2011, 10:53 AM

They should use torrent download numbers to determine how popular a show is, that would be much more accurate than the Nielsen numbers.

In Holland a TV show once did research on this measuring system for TV figures. They interviewed people who had this box hooked up to their TV. When you watch a show you also needed to enter with how many people you watched it. Normally you would expect them to enter their family members who watch it with them, but people confessed that when they like a show they sometimes enter 100 people are watching it with them (the maximum you can enter). This gives incredibly inaccurate numbers if every person does this for a show he likes. sometimes they just entered info in the box while they weren't watching a show, but were just taping it on dvd and watching something else live.

Most people they interviewed said they usually just play with it and don't take the task seriously. And these people are the ones who decide what the rest of us can watch the next season.

I'm assuming the system used in America is the same, so no wonder reality shows/talent shows get high ratings if people enter 100 people are viewing it with them.

Gamma_Winstead · 05-19-2011, 01:44 PM

Pissed off? Need a place to vent your anger? Do it here!

Tony208 · 01-14-2012, 04:48 AM

I hate the TV networks for putting out so many reality shows and I hate the viewers for watching them instead of good old original programming.

Fox now has Idol and X Factor...
How many singing competitions do you need

NBC has The Voice

CBS probably has one in the works where it's one competition per episode

You gotta be kidding me, next thing you know primetime will be all reality TV

So many shows dying prematurely because people like to watch losers embarrass themselves on national TV and say "look at least I'm not as big a loser as that person" and "hey I could be like that," but instead of going out and doing it, they're on the couch watching the next episode.

Clark Kent · 01-14-2012, 05:37 AM

Reality shows are much cheaper to produce and the "talent" is easily replaceable, both major factors in the trend's success.

Tony208 · 01-14-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Reality shows are much cheaper to produce and the "talent" is easily replaceable, both major factors in the trend's success.

Yeah but people still have to watch it for it to be successful and too many do at the expense of scripted programming

AndyD · 01-27-2012, 12:49 PM

Hey...over here....what about me...the Irish guy.
Do you care what I watch or what people in every other country around the world watches???

The U.S. makes the best tv shows which are shown all over the world.
Do the "suits" take into account the viewing figures across the globe? Not likely
Do they just let the Irish or UK tv stations etc bid for the rights to a show, collect the cash and then forget about them? Very likely

Of the many, many tv shows I've watched over the years, The Walking Dead is the only one I've seen that referenced global viewing figures when determining the success of the show.
I'm sure other shows/broadcasters do it too but I haven't seen it.

Many factors come to mind when a broadcaster cancels a show. Viewing figures and production costs being the most important.

IMO, the whole mid-season break which most shows take is absolutely stupid and harms the show over the long run....if it has a long run.
Most shows in the US start in the Fall. It used to be that I had to wait until Jan or Feb of the following year before I got to watch that show/season.
This was great because it got to see the whole season from start to finish without any stupid breaks.
But now....our broadcasters feel the need to keep pace with the US so we now get the shows a few days or week(s) after it airs in the US. This of course means, we also get the joy of those stupid mid-season breaks!

(Probably due to illegal downloading of shows)

To make matters worse, some broadcasters over here don't even tell you the show is taking a break. I'll just go to watch it the next week and be like WTF!?!?
They don't even advertise when its coming back either so I need to keep and eye out myself. Its completely stupid.
This leads to people forgetting about shows and moving onto something else.

Another, the amount of commercial breaks you guys have is crazy. Gawd bless DVR's right! I've been to the US many times and I hate watching tv over there. Way to many commerical breaks and it halts the flow of a show.

We have the same amount of commercial breaks as you guys but its arranged differently. For a typical hour long show (40min) we get 3 commerical breaks of 4-5min each. One every 15min or so. Much better and easier to handle.
For the standard half hour show (22min), we get one commercial break.
Take note US broadcasters!

Now, in saying all that, some networks/broadcasters are more leniant when deciding the faith of shows. Fox is the worst by far.
I've seen shows with 6, 7, 8 million + viewers get cancelled.
Then I look at Smallville and Supernatural which average like 2.5 mil viewers. Smallville made it to season 10 while Supernatural is in season 7 now. It all depends on the network.

Overall, the whole system is flawed and needs a serious overhaul
Rant over!

05-18-2011, 10:36 PM	#1
Groo The Perverted Blu-ray Champion Member since:Aug 2008 Blu-ray collection:109 DVD collection:8 Trading Score:272	Does it REALLY matter if we watch our favorite shows? (Ratings Wise) So with so many of my favorite shows getting the axe this past year (Lie To Me, Chicago Code, Terriers, Human Target, The Event, just to name a few), it got me wondering. The suits always talk about "ratings" and the lack of them for specific shows. However, is that really something that we actually control? They use, as far as I know, the Nielson system, which means ONLY those with Nielson boxes get counted for the ratings. And someone posted before, I think it was Wyldeman, that there are only like 25,000 boxes out there in the country? If so, that brings up a very serious situation here. If say 2 million people are watching a show, and yet there are only 25,000 boxes out there, of which say 5,000 of them are watching that show, how is that a fair representation of a show's true audience? When I saw it posted that there were that few boxes out there that just made my head spin. How can they just cancel and renew shows based on such a limited number? That's like a political poll interviewing fifty people and trying to make that indicative of what the country feels about a candidate. or political issue. So at that end, does it REALLY matter what we watch, if we don't have a box? All these "watch show X this week and get the ratings up so the studios know that we are wanting the show to come back" are all for naught, are they not? Because no matter how many people are watching it, if they don't have a Nielson box, they are not being counted. Or am I misreading the way this thing is done?

05-19-2011, 10:32 AM	#13
EricJ Banned Member since:Jul 2007 Location:The Paradise of New England Blu-ray collection:6	I'm convinced--and I'm not trying to be funny, here--networks no longer care at ALL whether we're watching on Monday at 9pm or not. It's not what the business is about anymore. We've moved on to other options--like VOD and Hulu--that let us stagger our schedules and skip commercials, that networks now take their product completely to those avenues. And at every end credits now advertise "If you missed the show, catch it again at ABC.com!" Programs are now a bulk commodity: No catchy opening themes, end credits scrolling by in a squooshed corner of the screen, and the next show loaded up within seconds, with no commercials in between. So why are networks still airing them at all, instead of abandoning "obsolete" broadcast? Unfortunately, it's that one old relic: Advertisers paid to make the show, and the contract says the network airs them. Doesn't matter whether the network staggers the show on a different night every week, or airs it three times in one week, as long as it's shown, their job is done, and it's on to the Blu-ray and download sales. Practically the only way the networks know we're watching at all anymore is whether we're talking about the shows, which is why they all descend on Facebook marketing like vultures. (In our next lesson, the "24 vs. Dancing With the Stars" polarization of series into homemade vaudeville/reality and complex season-long serial arcs. Geez, I miss the days when somebody said "Tuesday" and you thought Happy Days, or "Thursday" and you thought Cheers. ) Last edited by EricJ; 05-19-2011 at 10:35 AM.

05-19-2011, 01:44 PM	#15
Gamma_Winstead Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:Jul 2007 Location:U.S.G. Ishimura 4K collection:118 Blu-ray collection:764 Blu-ray reviews: 36 Trading Score:6	TV Rants thread (Show deaths, ratings, anger at networks etc.) Pissed off? Need a place to vent your anger? Do it here!

01-14-2012, 04:48 AM	#16
Tony208 Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:May 2010 Location:NYC 4K collection:421 Blu-ray collection:665 Trading Score:609	I hate the TV networks for putting out so many reality shows and I hate the viewers for watching them instead of good old original programming. Fox now has Idol and X Factor... How many singing competitions do you need NBC has The Voice CBS probably has one in the works where it's one competition per episode You gotta be kidding me, next thing you know primetime will be all reality TV So many shows dying prematurely because people like to watch losers embarrass themselves on national TV and say "look at least I'm not as big a loser as that person" and "hey I could be like that," but instead of going out and doing it, they're on the couch watching the next episode. Last edited by Tony208; 01-14-2012 at 04:51 AM.

05-19-2011, 12:24 AM	#2
Alpha Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jan 2010 Location:The Island Trading Score:45	I've always saw it as popularity. If a show is popular enough, it doesn't matter. The "box watchers" alone would be enough to satisfy expected ratings. And really, I don't think there's any other practical method to measure ratings besides DVR numbers. Think of shows like Firefly. Cancelled. Wasn't as popular, but became popular after word spread of how awesome it was. So basically, no, I don't think it matters much if we watch our favorite shows. What matters is if a good amount happen to watch AND like our favorite shows.

05-19-2011, 12:30 AM	#4
WyldeMan45 Banned Member since:Oct 2008 Location:Western Washington Blu-ray collection:49 Trading Score:15	The Nielsen boxes are incredibly outdated and completely pointless at this time. Until they learn to factor in DVR ratings into their actual figures as well as internet viewing like Hulu, shows people actual love and watch will never be represented. That's why I haven't watched anything live in 7 years. If it's not on my DVR then I don't watch it. We don't matter and that's the simple fact.

05-19-2011, 12:55 AM	#6
Groo The Perverted Blu-ray Champion Member since:Aug 2008 Blu-ray collection:109 DVD collection:8 Trading Score:272	my points exactly. I get all my shows via DL. If my viewing mattered, I'd definitely watch it live, but it doesn't. So all the people *****ing that people who download shows are hurting the ratings and are why shows get cancelled, are very misguided and ill informed.

05-19-2011, 02:59 AM	#10
KilloWertz Blu-ray Archduke Top contributor Member since:Dec 2008 Location:Columbiana, OH 4K collection:61 Blu-ray collection:1042 DVD collection:65 Blu-ray reviews:3 Trading Score:82	As others have said, nope. The only shows I watch live are all the shows I watch on USA and also Justified. Otherwise I either just watch my shows on Blu-ray or record them. If it was possible, I'd watch the majority of the shows on Blu-ray actually so I didn't have to deal with multiple breaks during a season.

05-19-2011, 03:39 AM	#11
Walts Ghost Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:Jun 2010 Location:Arizona 4K collection:790 Blu-ray collection:3093 DVD collection:177 iTunes collection:34 Blu-ray reviews: 33 Trading Score:1	This is why I rarely watch things live anymore. None of us matter to the guys in the office killing our favorite shows. Why should I watch live then? We're not even factored into what they cancel in the long run. It's a flawed system that seriously needs to be worked out.

05-19-2011, 10:53 AM	#14
racefreak619 Senior Member Top contributor Member since:Jan 2010 Blu-ray collection:125 DVD collection:5	They should use torrent download numbers to determine how popular a show is, that would be much more accurate than the Nielsen numbers. In Holland a TV show once did research on this measuring system for TV figures. They interviewed people who had this box hooked up to their TV. When you watch a show you also needed to enter with how many people you watched it. Normally you would expect them to enter their family members who watch it with them, but people confessed that when they like a show they sometimes enter 100 people are watching it with them (the maximum you can enter). This gives incredibly inaccurate numbers if every person does this for a show he likes. sometimes they just entered info in the box while they weren't watching a show, but were just taping it on dvd and watching something else live. Most people they interviewed said they usually just play with it and don't take the task seriously. And these people are the ones who decide what the rest of us can watch the next season. I'm assuming the system used in America is the same, so no wonder reality shows/talent shows get high ratings if people enter 100 people are viewing it with them.

01-14-2012, 05:37 AM	#17
Clark Kent Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Metropolis Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:184	Reality shows are much cheaper to produce and the "talent" is easily replaceable, both major factors in the trend's success.

01-27-2012, 12:49 PM	#19
AndyD Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Aug 2008 Location:Ireland, Dublin Blu-ray collection:391	Hey...over here....what about me...the Irish guy. Do you care what I watch or what people in every other country around the world watches??? The U.S. makes the best tv shows which are shown all over the world. Do the "suits" take into account the viewing figures across the globe? Not likely Do they just let the Irish or UK tv stations etc bid for the rights to a show, collect the cash and then forget about them? Very likely Of the many, many tv shows I've watched over the years, The Walking Dead is the only one I've seen that referenced global viewing figures when determining the success of the show. I'm sure other shows/broadcasters do it too but I haven't seen it. Many factors come to mind when a broadcaster cancels a show. Viewing figures and production costs being the most important. IMO, the whole mid-season break which most shows take is absolutely stupid and harms the show over the long run....if it has a long run. Most shows in the US start in the Fall. It used to be that I had to wait until Jan or Feb of the following year before I got to watch that show/season. This was great because it got to see the whole season from start to finish without any stupid breaks. But now....our broadcasters feel the need to keep pace with the US so we now get the shows a few days or week(s) after it airs in the US. This of course means, we also get the joy of those stupid mid-season breaks! (Probably due to illegal downloading of shows) To make matters worse, some broadcasters over here don't even tell you the show is taking a break. I'll just go to watch it the next week and be like WTF!?!? They don't even advertise when its coming back either so I need to keep and eye out myself. Its completely stupid. This leads to people forgetting about shows and moving onto something else. Another, the amount of commercial breaks you guys have is crazy. Gawd bless DVR's right! I've been to the US many times and I hate watching tv over there. Way to many commerical breaks and it halts the flow of a show. We have the same amount of commercial breaks as you guys but its arranged differently. For a typical hour long show (40min) we get 3 commerical breaks of 4-5min each. One every 15min or so. Much better and easier to handle. For the standard half hour show (22min), we get one commercial break. Take note US broadcasters! Now, in saying all that, some networks/broadcasters are more leniant when deciding the faith of shows. Fox is the worst by far. I've seen shows with 6, 7, 8 million + viewers get cancelled. Then I look at Smallville and Supernatural which average like 2.5 mil viewers. Smallville made it to season 10 while Supernatural is in season 7 now. It all depends on the network. Overall, the whole system is flawed and needs a serious overhaul Rant over!

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