Raintree County (1957) Warner Archive Blu-ray 2015?
On the Facebook page for Warner Bros. to release 'Raintree County' on Blu-ray has posted that a friend has told them Warner Archive is restoring and planning a Blu-ray release next year! Hopefully this is true. Wonderful movie with some great Hollywood Legends.
From the Facebook page:
Could it be true? In case you missed it, my friend John Fry just revealed that "Raintree County" is currently being restored and will be released via the Warner Archive on Blu-ray next year!
At the moment, all we have is a hearsay from a guy who is not affiliated with the WB and on the top of that - he is reluctant to reveal his sources. Musicguy is right...this belongs in the wishlist.
At the moment, all we have is a hearsay from a guy who is not affiliated with the WB and on the top of that - he is reluctant to reveal his sources. Musicguy is right...this belongs in the wishlist.
Ok..
But the thing I meant is, the guy did reveal his sources to the facebook page owner only, and after that the page owner said that it is indeed a legitimate source but he can't say anything further.
That means, as i see it, that it's not just a rumour spread by an obsessed fan or something, but a fact from a WB source maybe..
The "guy" with the Facebook page is me, lol. The collector is a friend of mine who I've been in touch with since starting my Raintree County page trying to gather support for this film to finally be released on Blu-ray. Out of respect for him I only feel comfortable revealing what he's posted publicly on my page, but I can tell you that this is happening. 2015 can't come soon enough for me!
Makes sense but at the very least they could bring the LD master to dvd which they have for a lot of their preexisting dvd r titles.
Yes, and offer it for purchase digitally in HD on iTunes. The fact that Warners hasn't done either gives me some optimism that they might properly restore it in the future.
Thanks for the info! I just listened to the podcast that abudgell cited, and to add to what abudgell summarized about it (for those who may be interested here), George Feltenstein said that a Warner Archive Blu-ray for "Raintree County" would cost Warner at least 1 million dollars because of their current standards for what it should be:
1) getting the picture for the 65 mm version restored
2) restoring the roadshow elements (entrance music, intermission, and exit music)
3) restoring the 15-20 minutes of footage cut from the movie way back in 1957
And unfortunately, the current materials they have for all those needed elements is not in the right aspect ratio, or the color has completely deteriorated, etc. The money needed to fix all that for Blu-ray -- if it can be done at all -- is too high for Warner's investors, according to Feltenstein.
But like you guys mentioned, that doesn't explain why there isn't at least a DVD of the general-release version they already have on hand. =/
Oh well. Hopefully it will happen someday for "Raintree County". Elsewhere at Warner Bros. recently, the 4-hour director's cut for "Justice League" (2017) is finally happening after many writers on the film industry said that it couldn't ever be done, and that Warner's investors would never approve it, so I'm hoping for more miracles out of WB. xD
Considering that they have the edited 65mm negative, and complete 35mm roadshow prints, why not restore what they have and let us have a look? Here’s what I was thinking:
Disc One: General Release Version
Picture: 2.76:1
Sound: 5.1 (the six-track stereo mix), 1.0 mono (from the theatrical prints)
Disc Two: Roadshow Version (composite of 65mm negative and 35mm prints)
Picture: 2.76:1, with 35mm portions slightly boxed in on the sides (check out The Complete Metropolis, you’ll see what I mean)
Sound: 5.1 (the six-track stereo mix), 1.0 mono (from the theatrical prints)
Disc Three: Special Features
And here’s another business idea: put them on pre-order or something similar, and when they feel like there’s enough people wanting to buy it, they’ll know it’s time to get to work. Before 2052 is here and a public domain copy of Raintree County is just a click away, they’ll amass enough customers to fund the restoration. And considering they’ve found a lot in the MGM and Warner Bros. archives (including elements of Gone With The Wind that we’re supposed to be destroyed), they may very well find some 65mm elements of the roadshow version. ��
Last edited by Shane Rollins; 04-16-2021 at 05:05 PM.
Considering that they have the edited 65mm negative, and complete 35mm roadshow prints, why not restore what they have and let us have a look? Here’s what I was thinking:
Disc One: General Release Version
Picture: 2.89:1
Sound: 5.1 (the six-track stereo mix), 1.0 mono (from the theatrical prints)
Disc Two: Roadshow Version (composite of 65mm negative and 35mm prints)
Picture: 2.89:1, with 35mm portions slightly boxed in on the sides (check out The Complete Metropolis, you’ll see what I mean)
Sound: 5.1 (the six-track stereo mix), 1.0 mono (from the theatrical prints)
Disc Three: Special Features
And here’s another business idea: put them on pre-order or something similar, and when they feel like there’s enough people wanting to buy it, they’ll know it’s time to get to work. Before 2052 is here and a public domain copy of Raintree County is just a click away, they’ll amass enough customers to fund the restoration. And considering they’ve found a lot in the MGM and Warner Bros. archives (including elements of Gone With The Wind that we’re supposed to be destroyed), they may very well find some 65mm elements of the roadshow version. ��
2.89:1?
2.76.1 was the intended ratio with 65/70mm prints, though it was never shown publicly in that format. I've seen a couple indications that the original 35mm reduction exhibition prints were in the wider scope ratio of 2.55:1 (I've also seen 2.6:1 mentioned), though later runs were in the 2.35:1 ratio. 1957 was the last year that the 2.55:1 ratio was used and the 2.35:1 ratio was adopted due to soundtrack issues/changes.
Any new information is always welcome.
Last edited by yellowcakeuf6; 04-01-2021 at 04:48 PM.
Here’s an old article pertaining to the 1986 home video release of Raintree County on Beta and VHS. For some reason, it wasn’t released on CED Videodisc or Laserdisc that year. This article is ironically very similar to the discussions that occur on this site. Most importantly, as of 1986, the complete negative existed. Maybe it still does?
Per my math and the words of George Feltenstein, here’s the state of Raintree County:
Elements:
-The 70mm negative exists in its edited form.
-The deleted scenes may or may not exist in 70mm form. If so, they’re in a vault in Kansas, and they’ve faded to purple.
-There is at least one 35mm CinemaScope print of the roadshow version, which was struck for a collector and acquired by Turner in 1995. They then combined it with other higher-quality sources, as evidenced by the differing quality of the 1999 VHS. They made two masters, a letterbox 2.35:1 master, and a pan-and-scanned 1.33:1 master. Both masters survive. The print itself is either faded to the point that no color remains or has turned purple.
Cost:
-Restoring the negative would cost $1 million. If this was done, only the general release version would be restored.
-Restoring the CinemaScope print or the video master would cost $1 million. This would restore the longer roadshow version, but it would he in lower quality than the negative would. Also, about 10% of the image would be missing.
-To restore both cuts, and bring both cuts to home video in the best quality possible with the best materials possible, the grand total would be in the range of $2-3 million. At that point, there is no way for WAC or any other MOD label to release Raintree County without taking a serious financial loss.
Assuming Warner Home Video releases it to stores:
-Limited Edition DVD, Limited Edition Blu-ray, Limited Edition 4K-Limited to 100,000 copies each (part of me thinks it should be like Apocalypse Now, part of me thinks it should be a larger set like Gone With The Wind)
-DVD Discs One and Two/Blu-ray Disc One/4K Disc One: Roadshow Version
-DVD Discs Three and Four/Blu-ray Disc Two/4K Disc Two: General Release Version
-DVD Disc Five/Blu-ray Disc Three/4K Disc Three: Special Features
-CD of Score
-Tons of swag
These sets cost peanuts to make when they make them in bulk. A disc-only set can go for $50, at which 60,000 units will break even. A set with all the swag could sell for $100, at which 30,000 would recoup the cost. Knowing how many people would buy this, I predict 50,000 copies sold would put WB in the black, and they would also have the restored transfer to repackage again and again like they have with all their other big catalog titles. (Why do you think The Wild Bunch still has DD?)
Assuming Criterion releases it:
-DVD Discs One and Two/Blu-ray Disc One: Roadshow Version
-DVD Discs Three and Four/Blu-ray Disc Two: General Release Version
-DVD Disc Five/Blu-ray Disc Three: Special Features
At this rate, the package will definitely be a massive case like It’s A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. The DVD would be at least $30 and the Blu-ray would be at least $40. Considering that CC’s entire business is film restoration, it might not hurt their bottom line to do Raintree County as much as it would to Warner Bros. With CC, if Raintree County doesn’t sell much but their next Ingmar Bergman release sells better than expected, then one hand will wash the other.
It would not shock me in the least if throughout all of the releases of Raintree County on video, the combined releases didn’t move a million units. This really would be a gamble of a release, since it didn’t exactly make waves, and it has become basically a cult film with a bigger aspect ratio. While the number on the package will sell it, it will only be when it gets a normal release that it proceeds to make money, albeit nickel and dine kind of money.
Edit: How do I put a petition together on here? I saw it once before on someone else’s post. Member, admin, mod, anyone? Thanks!
Per my math and the words of George Feltenstein, here’s the state of Raintree County:
[Show spoiler]Elements:
-The 70mm negative exists in its edited form.
-The deleted scenes may or may not exist in 70mm form. If so, they’re in a vault in Kansas, and they’ve faded to purple.
-There is at least one 35mm CinemaScope print of the roadshow version, which was struck for a collector and acquired by Turner in 1995. They then combined it with other higher-quality sources, as evidenced by the differing quality of the 1999 VHS. They made two masters, a letterbox 2.35:1 master, and a pan-and-scanned 1.33:1 master. Both masters survive. The print itself is either faded to the point that no color remains or has turned purple.
Cost:
-Restoring the negative would cost $1 million. If this was done, only the general release version would be restored.
-Restoring the CinemaScope print or the video master would cost $1 million. This would restore the longer roadshow version, but it would he in lower quality than the negative would. Also, about 10% of the image would be missing.
-To restore both cuts, and bring both cuts to home video in the best quality possible with the best materials possible, the grand total would be in the range of $2-3 million. At that point, there is no way for WAC or any other MOD label to release Raintree County without taking a serious financial loss.
Assuming Warner Home Video releases it to stores:
-Limited Edition DVD, Limited Edition Blu-ray, Limited Edition 4K-Limited to 100,000 copies each (part of me thinks it should be like Apocalypse Now, part of me thinks it should be a larger set like Gone With The Wind)
-DVD Discs One and Two/Blu-ray Disc One/4K Disc One: Roadshow Version
-DVD Discs Three and Four/Blu-ray Disc Two/4K Disc Two: General Release Version
-DVD Disc Five/Blu-ray Disc Three/4K Disc Three: Special Features
-CD of Score
-Tons of swag
These sets cost peanuts to make when they make them in bulk. A disc-only set can go for $50, at which 60,000 units will break even. A set with all the swag could sell for $100, at which 30,000 would recoup the cost. Knowing how many people would buy this, I predict 50,000 copies sold would put WB in the black, and they would also have the restored transfer to repackage again and again like they have with all their other big catalog titles. (Why do you think The Wild Bunch still has DD?)
Assuming Criterion releases it:
-DVD Discs One and Two/Blu-ray Disc One: Roadshow Version
-DVD Discs Three and Four/Blu-ray Disc Two: General Release Version
-DVD Disc Five/Blu-ray Disc Three: Special Features
At this rate, the package will definitely be a massive case like It’s A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. The DVD would be at least $30 and the Blu-ray would be at least $40. Considering that CC’s entire business is film restoration, it might not hurt their bottom line to do Raintree County as much as it would to Warner Bros. With CC, if Raintree County doesn’t sell much but their next Ingmar Bergman release sells better than expected, then one hand will wash the other.
It would not shock me in the least if throughout all of the releases of Raintree County on video, the combined releases didn’t move a million units. This really would be a gamble of a release, since it didn’t exactly make waves, and it has become basically a cult film with a bigger aspect ratio. While the number on the package will sell it, it will only be when it gets a normal release that it proceeds to make money, albeit nickel and dine kind of money.
Edit: How do I put a petition together on here? I saw it once before on someone else’s post. Member, admin, mod, anyone? Thanks!
Sounds good to me, but selling 60,000 copies sounds like a very tall order considering the decline of physical media sales.
If they want to try some sort of pre-order/interest/sign up I would be willing to pay upfront whatever they asked, within reason.
The real lure for this title is the roadshow version but having anything in HD is the priority.
This is another film video enthusiasts have been howling for in HD for 15 years!
At this point, I'd be satisfied with a restoration of the 35mm shorter, general release cut of Raintree County. I don't think I've watched the reconstructed roadshow version since the general release cut of the film streamed in HD on FilmStruck back in 2018—the version that TCM has been airing September of the same year. It's missing the overture, entr'acte, etc., but it's by far the best the film has looked for home viewing.
Stage One: the big, numbered set. This is the giant set that comes with books, posters, CDs, lithographs, autographs, telegraphs, all the bells and whistles.
If there are individual releases for each of the the three formats, 50,000 each would do it. I’m a completist to the nth degree, so it would be two of each right away, and then I’d probably snatch up more later. The number would easily sell it. These would have to retail for $100 each. Considering that Raintree County is being reevaluated more and more (there are quite a few people who love it, including me), each stage of selling these movies may create word-of-mouth advertising for the next releases. My earlier comment describes my intended layout for this set.
(For an example of what I’m referring to, look at The Wizard Of Oz (2009 and 2013), Gone With The Wind (2009 and 2013), Casablanca (2012), Singin’ In The Rain (2012?), The Ten Commandments (2011), Ben-Hur (2009), The Sound Of Music (2010), and JFK (2013).)
Stage Two: the discs without the swag. All the movie discs, maybe the special features disc and maybe the CD. While these wouldn’t have to be numbered, it would definitely move a lot of collectors’ hands. It would probably be at least $30, no more than $50. If they were numbered, maybe 100,000 or 250,000. Number isn’t necessary, but it sometimes sell things that otherwise wouldn’t sell.
(See the non-swag editions of Gone With The Wind (2009 and 2013), The Wizard Of Oz (2009 and 2013), The Ten Commandments (after 2011), West Side Story (2010-2011), One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest (2012?), and JFK (2013), as well as the 4K releases of 2001: A Space Odyssey and Apocalypse Now.)
Stage Three: The standard release. If I bought three discs plus a DC and some swag for $25 when I got 2001: A Space Odyssey, then there’s no reason why three discs in a case should be more than $30, preferably less. It would just be the general release cut, the roadshow cut, and the special features in a case with maybe a DC.
Considering that no MGM Camera 65/Ultra Panavision 70 movies have hit 4K yet, this would open the door to releasing the rest of them. At least 10% of the buyers would get it to give their TVs a workout since there’s not many *physical film* scope movies on 4K yet either.
There’s no doubt that Raintree County would need a major public reappraisal by us laypeople to become even a possibility for WB. However, the odds of it becoming reappraised the way Greed, Metropolis, Freaks, Citizen Kane, The Magnificent Ambersons, The Godfather Part II, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and The Shawshank Redemption are a long shot. It didn’t have that spectacular Ed Wood- level *thud* that would make it a bomb and guarantee that its low standing would be legendary. It wasn’t a critical darling and a theatrical disaster. (Ironically, it earned $13 million against a $5 million budget, and though the film was still a loss. It was basically the Cleopatra of the 50s.) It hasn’t been publicly hated, buried by the studio, intentionally destroyed, or been found by millions of fans who loved it decades later. And it never drew favorable comparisons to the Best Picture winner of the year, much like Dog Day Afternoon/One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest and Goodfellas/Dances With Wolves did. It basically just came and slowly faded. Frankly, had it not been for stumbling across a VHS on eBay years ago, I would have never heard of Raintree County.
This comment was delivered by The Mad Kiwi on the forum for The Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm, another widescreen movie stuck in restoration hell. That movie was just restored and is being released on Blu-ray later this year.
“This is such exciting news! I never thought we'd get this since it was always said the elements were in such rough shape that WB didn't think it worth the cost considering what a niche title this is. I'm thrilled to hear the elements are in better shape than expected, and I can tell just by the couple of shots in that article that this is going to look gorgeous. And what a treat to give us both letterbox and SmileBox options!”
Aside from the last sentence, it could easily be a description of the restored Raintree County, and frankly the comment should serve as a motivation to go out and restore the movie. It would be Day One for me.
This comment was delivered by The Mad Kiwi on the forum for The Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm, another widescreen movie stuck in restoration hell. That movie was just restored and is being released on Blu-ray later this year.
“This is such exciting news! I never thought we'd get this since it was always said the elements were in such rough shape that WB didn't think it worth the cost considering what a niche title this is. I'm thrilled to hear the elements are in better shape than expected, and I can tell just by the couple of shots in that article that this is going to look gorgeous. And what a treat to give us both letterbox and SmileBox options!”
Aside from the last sentence, it could easily be a description of the restored Raintree County, and frankly the comment should serve as a motivation to go out and restore the movie. It would be Day One for me.
Though it may have never been shown publicly in its intended aspect ratio (2.76:1), though, if I remember correctly, the L.A. and/or N.Y. Premieres may have shown the 70mm version, I would want that to be included in the video release. Maybe the Roadshow in W I D E 2.76 and 4-track discrete and the cut General Release in 2.35 and original mono(?).
I'd be willing to pay dearly for a nicely done set similar to the very well done Gone With the Wind (70th) and Ben-Hur (UCE) boxed sets.
Last edited by yellowcakeuf6; 05-25-2021 at 01:14 PM.
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Raintree County (1957) Warner Archive Blu-ray 2015?
I just listened to the podcast that abudgell cited, and to add to what abudgell summarized about it (for those who may be interested here), George Feltenstein said that a Warner Archive Blu-ray for "Raintree County" would cost Warner at least 1 million dollars because of their current standards for what it should be: 
Hybrid Mode
