More uninformed people spewing crap - Blu-ray Forum

phranctoast · 09-18-2006, 01:37 PM

http://www.igniq.com/2006/09/ps3s-bl...d-to-fail.html

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Sony’s PlayStation 3 has already taken a major hit, and now the Hollywood movie studios are lining up to give it a big kick while it’s down.

The president of Universal Studios Home Entertainment has come out in favor of Microsoft’s backed HD-DVD format rather than Sony’s Blu-ray. That puts Universal, Warner, Paramount, HBO, New Line Cinemas and the Weinstein Company all in the HD-DVD camp.

Sure, it does have some support coming in the form of Disney and Fox, but the line up against is looking more and more impressive.

So, why should this be of concern to video gamers? Because Sony has made it a concern. Rather than go sans next-gen movies like Wii, or opt for an external drive like Microsoft, Sony’s made Blu-ray a huge part of its console’s hype. In fact, that big-ticket price on the PS3 console comes mostly because of the Blu-ray capability included.

But now it seems Blu-ray could be Sony’s own downfall (OK, that along with some serious ego issues and bad planning).

The next-gen movie concept not being embraced by the studios is a serious blow. Sony’s been counting on it to push the PS3 as a total entertainment device. Sony execs have used the Blu-ray inclusion as a way to justify the pricing of the console. They’re now blaming it for the delay in launch and the scaling back of launch numbers.

If the Hollywood studios don’t back the device, why would anyone want to buy it? Sure, hard core gamers will want it in hopes of high-def video gaming action, but what about the rest of the potential buyers out there? Will they be willing to plunk down the price Sony’s asking for a device that may or may not have good movie support?

It’s doubtful and this could put a beating on sales when the console does make its worldwide launch. Add to this the fact Blu-ray movies are expensive, and it really starts to lose its appeal over the optional HD-DVD capabilities of the Xbox 360.

The closer it gets to Sony’s PS3 launch, the more it’s looking like Blu-ray is destined to go the way of the UMD even before it’s really hit the ground running. It didn’t have to be this way for Sony, but it appears greed, arrogance and maybe even a bit of foolishness have made it so.

Her followup

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I’ve received a lot of flack since posting my opinion piece on Sony’s Blu-ray drive – a whole lot. The Sony fans are coming out of the woodwork upset that anyone would dare say they believe Blu-ray is a big mistake.

They’re entitled to their opinions and I respect them for being willing to write in and give their side. But, I thought perhaps I should set the record straight on a few things.

First off, I am a Sony fan – a rather big one. I’m an EQ junkie and have been so for years. Most of my electronics equipment has a Sony brand name on it. I subscribe to PlanetSide, too, and I even owned a PlayStation at one point. So, Sony and I go way back.

But, I also happen to be a very disappointed Sony fan for a number of reasons. Let me explain:

1.) Sony’s inability to deliver. Sony’s hyped up the PlayStation 3 console so much it’s ridiculous, yet when the rubber hits the road, it’s had to scale back everything because of the Blu-ray diode. No longer will the PS3 launch be worldwide and the numbers they’re planning on offering are a joke – a la the Xbox 360’s initial launch.

2.) Sony has a history of major failures when trying to introduce new movie-viewing formats. Yet, the company is making another attempt to do so, and it’s entangled a gaming machine in the prospect. This console has the potential to be incredible, but Blu-ray is bringing it and Sony’s stock prices down.

3.) Sony’s arrogance in regard to its PS3 and Blu-ray simply is unwarranted. No. 1, the format is as of yet unproven, as is the HD-DVD format. Sony has spent so much time bragging about the PS3, it failed to make sure the darn thing could be put together in the timeframe it boasted. I, perhaps foolishly, hoped Sony would have been smart enough to learn from Microsoft’s mistakes, but it seems the only company taking the cue is Nintendo.

In regard to the movie studios falling behind the HD-DVD or the Blu-ray format, that I will concede is pretty irrelevant. All in all, it’s been seen in the past the studios and stores will toss their support one way and then pull the rug out from underneath it at the first sign of trouble. If Blu-ray sells, they’ll go that way. If HD-DVD does, you can bet they’ll be lining up to produce in this format. Right now a lot of them are in both camps, which I did fail to point out this morning. But the fact of the matter is, if neither format sells well, the shelves once occupied by HD-DVD or Blu-ray will have tumbleweed on them as far as new releases are concerned. This will hurt the PS3's Sony-created selling point, but not the Xbox 360's.

As for the Blu-ray versus HD-DVD pricing that folks have been mailing me about. Blu-ray all in all does fall in higher as does the PS3 console. The typical price of Blu-ray movies on BestBuy is $29.99. The average price for HD-DVD is $24.99. Both formats have titles running much higher and a little lower, too. Frankly, both are too high in my opinion.

My stand on Sony’s mistakes remains the same. Sony made the PS3 and Blu-ray dependent on each other in regard to selling this console. They're the ones hyping the total entertainment system to justify the pricing.

I still believe if Sony had spent more time getting its ducks in a row and less time hyping a launch it couldn’t pull off that perhaps it could have pulled it off. Instead, Sony execs talked up the console, promised a worldwide launch and now have egg on their faces instead (and a stock price hit, too). It’s just bad business not to deliver on promises and Sony’s getting a rep for not delivering and that is a shame.

Sony’s a great company. It makes good games. It makes great game machines. It makes fantastic television sets. It even makes some wonderful movies. But, it also makes some mistakes.

It’s my belief Blu-ray will be one of those. In all honesty, it’s anyone’s guess as to which format will survive if either do. But, based on Sony’s past failures and its recent screw-ups, I’m not banking on Blu-ray.

Its interesting to see people actually believe things like this. Its so off the mark its borders on insanity. Its almost like it was written just to anger people that exhibit some common sense.

JTK · 09-18-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phranctoast

http://www.igniq.com/2006/09/ps3s-bl...d-to-fail.html

Her followup

Its interesting to see people actually believe things like this. Its so off the mark its borders on insanity. Its almost like it was written just to anger people that exhibit some common sense.

What's sad is: This kind of crap doesn't even phase me anymore.

Anyone who's a veteran of forums like AVS is so used to seeing this kind of nonsense by now...it's just nothing new, unfortuneately.

Once yet again, say it with me kids:

OH NOES!!!! TEH SKY SI FALLIGN!!!!!

OH NOES!!! BLEWBETARAY IS TEH DOOME4ED!!!!

Dave · 09-18-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

Once yet again, say it with me kids:

OH NOES!!!! TEH SKY SI FALLIGN!!!!!

OH NOES!!! BLEWBETARAY IS TEH DOOME4ED!!!!

LOL

zombie · 09-18-2006, 03:39 PM

Of all the crap she's dishing out this is the part that annoyed me the most:

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That puts Universal, Warner, Paramount, HBO, New Line Cinemas and the Weinstein Company all in the HD-DVD camp.

Sure, it does have some support coming in the form of Disney and Fox, but the line up against is looking more and more impressive.

Wake up lady!! Paramount and Warner (which owns HBO & New Line) are supporting HD DVD and Blu-ray equally! She tries to separate the Warner entities into more support for HD DVD. Word is the Weinstein Company will be supporting Blu-ray early next year so guess what's left as exclusive HD DVD support? Universal, that's it! Hello? Anybody in that shell?

Funny how that wasn't in her followup. Certainly if she received a lot of email from Sony fans at least one of them would have pointed this out.

Psiweaver · 09-18-2006, 06:08 PM

she just didn't want to admit that. Clearly a biased article. Thats one of things that irks me most about the format so far is how much bias there is on some message boards and how somewhere like blu-ray.com actually tends to be the least biased its wierd to me that one side has to be such extravagant claims in order to feel good about themselves.

Knight-Errant · 09-18-2006, 06:42 PM

Agreed there's been very little silencing of opposing viewpoints here.

mainman · 09-18-2006, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phranctoast

http://www.igniq.com/2006/09/ps3s-bl...d-to-fail.html

Her followup

Its interesting to see people actually believe things like this. Its so off the mark its borders on insanity. Its almost like it was written just to anger people that exhibit some common sense.

This is what I think about her opinion:
Focus especially on take 10

Psiweaver · 09-18-2006, 08:54 PM

The wierd about this whole piece is its simply that her opinion nowhere does she give really good hard facts about why her opinion is right its all pretty wishy washy.

CobaltBlue · 09-22-2006, 11:46 AM

As a huge Audio/Videophile, I hate to agree with the naysayers but Sony has a notoriously bad track record on developing their innovative technologies. This is just a quick reminder to put the fanboys in check. I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation...

*Betamax- *cough cough* how'd that last big format battle go again?
*MiniDisc- I kept waiting for this to, rightfully, replace cd as a realistic and durable solution. Yup, still waiting.
*Memory Stick-"few other manufacturers are also making use of this technology"
*HiFD- yeah, I never heard of it either. It's competitor Zip did pretty well though.
*SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound)- "Ultimately, SDDS has been vastly overshadowed by the preferred DTS (Digital Theatre System) and Dolby Digital standards"
*ATRAC- do people own ATRAC or MP3 players?
*Elcaset- another dead proprietary audio format.
*SACD- Relevant as a recent Hi-def format war and my favorite example as an audiophile. Sony develops a superior audio technology (yes, even in comparison to vinyl) and then releases a handful (I'm being generous) of albums per year and advertises... wait, that's right I never saw any. Thank god for third party releases. DVD-Audio seems to have kind-of? won this format war. The end result being a public largely ignorant that either exists at all. Thanks to bad implentation and the rise of crappy but compressed MP3's, the music we listen to is at the same or worse quality(media-wise) it was in the 80's.
Lastly,
*MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD)- never had one of these did you? That's because Philips and Sony abandoned their MMCD format and agreed upon Toshiba's SD format. This became the DVD we know and love.

Sony has never been what I would call consumer friendly (2005 rootkit debacle anyone?). Though my love of games and movies has me eager to have HD and Blu-ray, my response (and others) might be to hold off until these idiots consider their customers, go back to the drawing board and come back with a unified format. One way or another we'll get one and not everyone is clamoring for a PS3... so that doesn't guarantee success other than in use as another proprietary Sony format for their products(a'la UMD). So far it looks like HD has the edge of releases, and if the price is reasonable for the Xbox360 add-on drive, there's a difficult decision coming for budget concious movie watching gamers. If the choices are HD drive and Halo3(that's right, I dropped the H-bomb) vs. a new PS3...
Also, I'd like to pose a question to those more knowledgable...
According to tomshardware.com and other tech savy sources, decoding encryption on new Hi-def media is going to give even recent dual core processors in pc's a hard time. Upon Sony's insistence, Blu-ray has stronger encryption from what I've read. Will HD-dvd's cause less of a performance hit on a pc than Blu-ray? If so, I think that is a pretty important consideration as well.

CobaltBlue

*Most info taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony#Proprietary_formats

Applefiend · 09-22-2006, 11:48 AM

Blu Ray is not a Sony format, it has multiple backers.

CobaltBlue · 09-22-2006, 01:05 PM

"The Blu-ray standard was jointly developed by a group of consumer electronics and PC companies called the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), spearheaded by Sony."

"The first Blu-ray recorder was unveiled by Sony on March 3, 2003."

Most people reference it as follows "With Toshiba being the primary promoter of the HD DVD in the battle against Sony's Blu-ray technology..."- http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/21/to...ray/index.html

I think I can safely call Blu-ray a Sony product.

CobaltBlue

BTBuck1 · 09-22-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CobaltBlue

As a huge Audio/Videophile, I hate to agree with the naysayers but Sony has a notoriously bad track record on developing their innovative technologies. This is just a quick reminder to put the fanboys in check. I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation...

As a huge "Audio/Videophile" I think you'd know better than to spew off BS much akin to the OP's, Articles editor. Let's re-evaluate the track record from a differen't perspective...so there is no unneccessary "FUD" spread either way...going to wikpedia for your info proves you were on a search and destroy mission to use to spread FUD

Quote:

*Betamax- *cough cough* how'd that last big format battle go again?

Betamax, a technilogically superior format to VHS which lost the "home video" market but was the superior format in broadcast recording. This format has yet to "Dissapear" and is still used today in the broadcast industry. The last Betamax player/recorder was sold in 2000. Thats a pretty impressive lifespan in my eyes.

Quote:

*MiniDisc- I kept waiting for this to, rightfully, replace cd as a realistic and durable solution. Yup, still waiting.

MiniDisc still is a realistic and durable solution, player/recorders and blank media are still sold today...no abandonment here. so whats your point? Does every product released have to be t3h winnAR? can't products co-exist??

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*Memory Stick-"few other manufacturers are also making use of this technology"

I would consider memory stick, duo & pro duo a huge success. Sony's incorporated it into televisions, the slot is on printers, computers and card readers. Sony has had large success in the digital imaging markets and their memory is priced equally with Secure Digital/compact flash and XD.
Don't know why you would consider *Memorystick a failure...oh yeah, maybe because your reaching...for some hope of failure from sony...typical Fanboi Fud spewing.

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*HiFD- yeah, I never heard of it either. It's competitor Zip did pretty well though.

With CDrom/DVDrom nobody had a chance against that at the time unless BD would have been released then.

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*SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound)- "Ultimately, SDDS has been vastly overshadowed by the preferred DTS (Digital Theatre System) and Dolby Digital standards"

Still used by theatres nationwide, why is this even used as a comparison? Desperation to try and prove a point, weak...next....

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*ATRAC- do people own ATRAC or MP3 players?

dude, are you seriously trying to equate this to a format war? gimme a break...

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*Elcaset- another dead proprietary audio format.

Never heard of it, but I don't knock Sony for trying new things.

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*SACD- Relevant as a recent Hi-def format war and my favorite example as an audiophile. Sony develops a superior audio technology (yes, even in comparison to vinyl) and then releases a handful (I'm being generous) of albums per year and advertises... wait, that's right I never saw any. Thank god for third party releases. DVD-Audio seems to have kind-of? won this format war. The end result being a public largely ignorant that either exists at all. Thanks to bad implentation and the rise of crappy but compressed MP3's, the music we listen to is at the same or worse quality(media-wise) it was in the 80's.

The general public isn't going to buy anything but CD's with digital distribution becomming more and more popular. I don't care what audio format you come out with it will be too little too late. SACD & DVDA should have been heavily promoted/released in 2000/01 if it even stood a chance. Your godsend format "DVD" didn't even have a chance here...CD sales at retailers are down 40% from 3 years ago and even Best Buy is implimenting recording stations in it's stores so that you can come in, select the songs and burn them to a disc.

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Lastly,
*MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD)- never had one of these did you? That's because Philips and Sony abandoned their MMCD format and agreed upon Toshiba's SD format. This became the DVD we know and love.

So now we reach further and try and bring in a format that was never sold..are you knocking sony for being innovative? Should sony become a lemming of the CE world, would that make you happy as an "Audio/videophile"?? so you can rely on the genius minds of Toshiba to bring us more glitchy/clunky crap? no thanks...I'll take the polished products sony delivers time and time again...Sony, I commend your work!

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Sony has never been what I would call consumer friendly (2005 rootkit debacle anyone?).

Rootkit Debacle...okay a mistake they took care of. But you don't consider them consumer friendly yet they ended the last format war by giving in...now they have the superior format and they are suppossed to do it again? how does less speed/storage/studio &CE support benefit the consumer???
Sony IMO is probably the most consumer friendly. Alot of their products work together (memorystick) they helped your beloved DVD format springboard to stardom with the ps3 and early referance players and their customer service is 10fold better than any other large companies i've had to deal with. if/when i've had a problem. Of the probably 100's of sony products i've ever owned i've only ever had two problems (both cd lasers going out on stereo/dvd) and both covered under warranty for free, quickly.

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Though my love of games and movies has me eager to have HD and Blu-ray, my response (and others) might be to hold off until these idiots consider their customers, go back to the drawing board and come back with a unified format.

The BDA (you call it Sony) tryed several times to approach Toshiba with options to end a format war, Toshiba felt that since they had the HDDVD "name" they held all the cards...IMO they are the idiots who don't consider their customers. The BDA (sony as you call it) IMO has done everything possible to do right by the consumer. They aren't charging us extra and including a dumb SD dvd (combo discs), and they are up to 90% studio support to make sure it's customers have the most HD content available for their supported format. What has HDDVD done? recruit the evil Bill Gates and company and a few scant pc manufacturers...wow, thats impressive...(Gimme a F'n break)

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One way or another we'll get one and not everyone is clamoring for a PS3... so that doesn't guarantee success other than in use as another proprietary Sony format for their products(a'la UMD).

Ps3 will play CD's, DVD's, BD's, SACD's & read any memory card. I think you'd be pretty dumb to think you'd have no use for this device even if BD doesn't win as a movie distribution media.

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So far it looks like HD has the edge of releases,

with a 3 month head start i'd expect them to be further ahead than they are...look at the 4th quarter...the BDA's release list looks far more impressive IMO. the gap in quality has closed and now with 50gb on the horizon with release dates from several studio's it's only gonna get worse for HDDVD.

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and if the price is reasonable for the Xbox360 add-on drive, there's a difficult decision coming for budget concious movie watching gamers. If the choices are HD drive and Halo3(that's right, I dropped the H-bomb) vs. a new PS3...

Blu ray comes inside EVERY ps3. add on's are notoriously failures, when something is included it's more likely adopted. If only 60% of 360 owners own HDTV's of that how many will buy HDDVD's ? especially when the studio support is so lobsided in Blu Ray's favor? not even mentioning that Blu Disc helps make better games through increased storage capacity, you may start seeing gamers selling their 360's or abandonning them in favor of ps3. ps3 will have everything but Halo (wow a fps thats not revolutionary anymore) and more...all those Japanese developers who shun xbox...will be making kick ass games (mostly rpg) for the what...the ps3!

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Also, I'd like to pose a question to those more knowledgable...
According to tomshardware.com and other tech savy sources, decoding encryption on new Hi-def media is going to give even recent dual core processors in pc's a hard time. Upon Sony's insistence, Blu-ray has stronger encryption from what I've read. Will HD-dvd's cause less of a performance hit on a pc than Blu-ray? If so, I think that is a pretty important consideration as well.

I'll leave this one for the PC geeks...i don't know.

theknub · 09-22-2006, 04:59 PM

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If a year from now HD-DVD players are still 50%(read $500) cheaper with more movies available, possibly at a cheaper price...

not even right there. the new xa2 is priced at $1,000. so now hd-dvd is in the same camp, cost wise, as blu-ray with minimal ce and studio support.

Monkey · 09-22-2006, 05:02 PM

this CobaltBlue is a clown. Why hasn't he been banned yet

All he is doing is barfing up false information and Fud.

Psiweaver · 09-22-2006, 05:16 PM

The funny thing is that Sony devoloped VHS then sold it to JVC so technicly you could say they are responsible for VHS which would be a huge victory in their favor. I can't stand sony mainly because like bose they overcharge for a product based on their marketing. The one thing about sony and bose is that they have very good marketing departments.

If you think Halo 3 is really going to be that amazing then feel free to go out and buy an xbox 360 because thats about the only game that you'll be playing on that system. An add on drive isn't going to sell in numbers anywhere near the PS3, yes not everyone wants one but just about every gamer i know wants one and add on the fact that the ps2 is the best selling console in history and I think the ps3 just might be a winner.

AV_Integrated · 09-22-2006, 05:20 PM

Sony has a ton of innovations and products that they have brought to market that are phenomenal and truly cutting edge, as well as a long list of failure items. They also have a long list that sits somewhere in the middle that people insist upon putting in one category or another.

Successes for Sony:
Walkman - This was THE product for carrying your own music around in. Not a cheap FM radio thing, but a way to take your own tunes anywhere you wanted.

CD - Which they developed with Philips. A joint venture doesn't leave the Sony name off this product's development and push.

Playstation - The Sega/Nintendo juggernaut of home gaming seemed locked up for many years to come when PS1 came along and rocked the world for those companies. Sega who? Is what our kids will say, though Nintendo has toughed things out and rocked on with their Gameboy series.

PSP - While no Gameboy, it is a long, long way from a flop of a product. Excellent color and reviews for gaming... who cares about the movie aspect? This thing is fun to play and almost everyone who owns one, loves it!

SXRD - Sony received 'product of the year' honors for their 60" SXRD model from Home Theater Magazine (or was it S&V?). After years of incredible CRT displays, Sony comes out on top again with a significantly larger model that just looks awesome. When LCoS had a questionable future, Sony has really turned it into a viable format. Oh, and let's not forget their front projectors with the Qualia, Ruby, and now Pearl 1080p models. They are on 3rd generation front projection and now at $5,000 while the competition is just getting warmed up.

While it is fair to say that Sony has had products that have not done well, it is not fair to pretend that they haven't had stellar successes with products that they have introduced either. They continue to make one of the only 400 disc DVD changers, they are sticking with LCD flat panels and avoiding DLP rear projection - with much success!

Yet, in the end - Sony does not have a single Blu-ray player out on the market yet using BDA approved format guidelines. Their recorder from 2003 was nothing like what is coming out now. The first Blu-ray players are from Samsung and the worlds largest CE manufacturer: Panasonic. We may even get the Pioneer before the first Sony player shows up.

This is critical because not one product that Sony has helped to develop that has failed has had so much support behind it that I am aware of. Not one or two companies making hardware and software - but dozens! The BDA is taking Sony's product and are running with it.

HD-DVD, near as I can tell, is the DiVX of the HD formats. The Beta. Unlike Beta though, Blu-ray was announced and developed first. Toshiba turned its back on the format, and some naive people choose to blame Sony for their decision. This would be a single unified format if Toshiba hadn't been the hold out company.

CobaltBlue · 09-22-2006, 06:15 PM

"New line Cinema supports both formats."

Cool, I was under the impression from the article at the start of this topic that New Line was solely HD. Noone seemed to argue that point. LOTR will be a great candidate to showcase Blu-ray.
I also thought TV series would have been a great thing to lead off with marketing-wise. West Wing Season 6, on one disc, etc.

"Look at who's in the BDA...IT"S NOT JUST SONY!"

Didn't the mod just reply with "You can call BD a Sony product..."
Didn't I say Sony(and company).

"Many years from now."

Now or years from now, price and selection are what matters. Do you remember a game system called Neo-Geo. Ahead of its time, huge price tag for the system and the games. Everyone passed in favor of Nintendo. That's all I'm saying.

"They won't be"

You're either in charge of Sony's marketing or your crystal ball is better than mine. That's why I said "If".

"won't happen. As long as HD-DVD is just Toshiba, Microsoft..."

"Just Microsoft", now that's hubris. And with assurances like "Won't happen" from JTK on the Blu-ray forum, I better run and plunk down my $1000 at best buy right now. Maybe I like a lot of films by Universal or whoever is HD exclusive... why would I drop $1000 knowing I very likely won't get 100% of the films released. I'd say, unless budget is no object, it's dumb not to wait a while longer. Both camps deserve criticism for being too greedy to do right by their customers.

"How so"

Again, perhaps in error I was going with the article cited at the beginning of the topic. It has been common knowledge and common sense though that they are going to have most of the same issues of the 360 launch coupled with using blu-ray rather than readily available dvd.

"True. It will be at least 1-2 years... The Xbox360's present hardware will most certainly hit a brick wall long before the PS3's hardware."

Like I said before it won't matter. Argue if you want, but the PS2 has been obsolete for years but 99% of xbox games by third parties were still straight ports. That raises another valid point, are movie studios going to bother to make different versions if forced to publish on 2 formats to reach all consumers? Not likely.

"Ah yes. I've seen this spin on AVS countless times... BD50 titles"

I'm confused... so the 25 gb blu-ray movies produced so far have been inferior in some way then? At 50 gb we see the real potential? Playing Devil's Advocate here... I agree that on epics like LOTR, more space is a good thing. But that is what, maybe .5% of movies produced?

"Very short term advantage. See above. Your argument is pretty much already gone and done with."

No, my argument will be done with when one format has 100% of releases like its competitor, DVD. Until then you're paying too much money for limited reward which may be limited by the other medium anyway if studios release one version for both (likely).

"Higher standard my ass. Those clunky Toshiba HD-DVD players... "

I was referring to "On the other hand, Dolby Digital Plus support is mandatory for standalone HD DVD players at a maximum of 3 Mbit/s, while only optional for BD players and capped at 1.7 Mbit/s."

"I doubt it. I think you're here as an HD-DVD fan "

Right. Because I hate Sony. As I type on my Vaio x505 laptop(beautiful but overpriced). As a gamer, if they've got good games I'll have a PS3 eventually, once the hype and prices die down. In the meantime I've got a 360 that works great with a Media Center PC. So HD-DVD as a 360 add-on will likely make it into my house before Blu-Ray. But if it dies as a format in a couple of years, I won't be out $1000 either.

"I think you need to look at the specs on HD DVD ..."

The wikipedia entry didn't go into detail that the triple layer wasn't current spec. Now I know. A 20 gb difference will hopefully help establish blu-ray as the choice to go with for 100% of the studios. Once adopted universally, I'm there dude. If not, I'd go with VHS over laserdisc every time (and die a little inside)

"The myth that 30 GB ... 4+ hour epic "

Here's the thing, how many 4+ hour epics do you own? Name your top 100 4+ hour epics... ok make it 50. Still can't? I'm not saying I would rather have to put a second disc in, but to get a universal hi-def medium, if that's the only hitch, I can make that concession on less than .5% of my movies. Hopefully I won't have to. The upside is we're already used to having to do that, and we need an intermission to pee anyway.

"Betamax, a technilogically superior"
"I don't knock Sony for trying new things"

Didn't I preface the comment with "I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation..."

Sony has a crappy track record on developing its innovations, period. Noone typically argues that any more than they'd argue that Xerox has historically had the same problem. Noone thanks them for windows either, because of that exact problem. But do you really want to say beta was anything but egg on the company's face. Come on. "They use it in broadcast..." yeah that's comparable to having a unit in every home, rv, and camcorder. I'm complimentary about the company's successes and honest about the shortcomings. Coming up with SACD for example, yay! Lackluster support of SACD due to fears of its lack of encryption was as you say, weak.

"add on's are notoriously failures"

Very true, but if they end up selling it on the cheap, the public will have a more budget friendly path to Hi-def in the already established 360. I don't even know that MS is gearing to develop games for the drive as it would limit who could play. And as already stated on this forum elsewhere, there's no saying they couldn't eventually have a blu-ray drive as well. It will already be able to link to one on your media center pc, so why not?

I'm not on here to be a cheerleader for Sony. I'm here to discuss and learn about Blu-ray AND its alternatives to inform myself as a consumer. Now that I'm enlightened to current spec limitations for HD-dvd, I agree blu-ray WOULD be a better solution when factoring in really long movies or preferably whole seasons of West Wing on 1 disc. If it doesn't garner 100% of the market, it's not going to matter. Notice I managed to do so without equating what you have to say with BS or being rude. If you make a valid point about something I was ignorant of, I'll go with your educated opinion. That's why I'm here. Should I be apologizing that I did something other than wave pom-poms for Sony(and company)? You guys seem to do enough of that for the both of us.

Rob Tomlin · 09-22-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CobaltBlue

As a huge Audio/Videophile, I hate to agree with the naysayers but Sony has a notoriously bad track record on developing their innovative technologies. This is just a quick reminder to put the fanboys in check. I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation...

*Betamax- *cough cough* how'd that last big format battle go again?
*MiniDisc- I kept waiting for this to, rightfully, replace cd as a realistic and durable solution. Yup, still waiting.
*Memory Stick-"few other manufacturers are also making use of this technology"
*HiFD- yeah, I never heard of it either. It's competitor Zip did pretty well though.
*SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound)- "Ultimately, SDDS has been vastly overshadowed by the preferred DTS (Digital Theatre System) and Dolby Digital standards"
*ATRAC- do people own ATRAC or MP3 players?
*Elcaset- another dead proprietary audio format.
*SACD- Relevant as a recent Hi-def format war and my favorite example as an audiophile. Sony develops a superior audio technology (yes, even in comparison to vinyl) and then releases a handful (I'm being generous) of albums per year and advertises... wait, that's right I never saw any. Thank god for third party releases. DVD-Audio seems to have kind-of? won this format war. The end result being a public largely ignorant that either exists at all. Thanks to bad implentation and the rise of crappy but compressed MP3's, the music we listen to is at the same or worse quality(media-wise) it was in the 80's.
Lastly,
*MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD)- never had one of these did you? That's because Philips and Sony abandoned their MMCD format and agreed upon Toshiba's SD format. This became the DVD we know and love.

Sony has never been what I would call consumer friendly (2005 rootkit debacle anyone?). Though my love of games and movies has me eager to have HD and Blu-ray, my response (and others) might be to hold off until these idiots consider their customers, go back to the drawing board and come back with a unified format. One way or another we'll get one and not everyone is clamoring for a PS3... so that doesn't guarantee success other than in use as another proprietary Sony format for their products(a'la UMD). So far it looks like HD has the edge of releases, and if the price is reasonable for the Xbox360 add-on drive, there's a difficult decision coming for budget concious movie watching gamers. If the choices are HD drive and Halo3(that's right, I dropped the H-bomb) vs. a new PS3...
Also, I'd like to pose a question to those more knowledgable...
According to tomshardware.com and other tech savy sources, decoding encryption on new Hi-def media is going to give even recent dual core processors in pc's a hard time. Upon Sony's insistence, Blu-ray has stronger encryption from what I've read. Will HD-dvd's cause less of a performance hit on a pc than Blu-ray? If so, I think that is a pretty important consideration as well.

CobaltBlue

*Most info taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony#Proprietary_formats

Yes. Sony has not been successful in some of their previous formats. So?

Some of those formats were better than the format that won (ie, Beta).

I just don't understand what your point is. I think Sony deserves credit for being a leading company when it comes to R&D. If nothing else, it motivates the competing format/companies to improve their format/products in order to compete.

How is this a bad thing?

Deciazulado · 09-22-2006, 10:38 PM

Actually, if I remember correctly, the Beta II Hi-Fi's spec vs the SP VHS Hi-Fi's spec was just 5% better or different. (or was it the SuperBeta II Hi-Fi's spec that was 5% better? Can't remember, they were trying to leapfrog each other all the time!). So the Beta superiority wasn't really there on practice tho the "mystique" lingered on. When Super-VHS Hi-Fi came to the scene it was 33% better than even the super rare SuperBeta II Hi-Fi and that was the nail in the coffin for Beta. (Sony tried to counter with the $$$ metal tape ED Beta which was 25% better than Super-VHS but by then it was too late).
So IMO in that war actually the best format won! VHS having the equivalent or better quality, features, more options, more variety in content and manufacturers, etc, that last being Sony's fault because they were practically the only ones doing Beta decks (Sanyo had a cool portable Beta Hi-Fi unit you could use for sound recordings but that was the only interesting option then!).

Right now the difference between single layer BD and double layer HD DVD is 20% in favor of HD in storage capacity (but not on maximum bit rate) but that's temporary, a drop in the years of format history, since when double layer BDs arrive on the scene shortly they'll have both the 66% advantage of storage capacity AND the maximum bitrate, so they'll be able to store more content, and that content can be cleaner and sharper, and have more variety in releases and equipment. Kind of the scenario JVC, Panasonic, etc. had when Super-VHS arrived on the scene and Beta faded from consumers electronics forever.

Beta I arrived first and was superior for a while. But the VHS camp followed with an unified front and format upgrades that made it equal or better in the long run. Looks like history repeating itself to me!

09-22-2006, 11:46 AM	#9
CobaltBlue Banned Member since:Sep 2006	sony track record As a huge Audio/Videophile, I hate to agree with the naysayers but Sony has a notoriously bad track record on developing their innovative technologies. This is just a quick reminder to put the fanboys in check. I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation... Betamax- cough cough* how'd that last big format battle go again? MiniDisc- I kept waiting for this to, rightfully, replace cd as a realistic and durable solution. Yup, still waiting. Memory Stick-"few other manufacturers are also making use of this technology" HiFD- yeah, I never heard of it either. It's competitor Zip did pretty well though. SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound)- "Ultimately, SDDS has been vastly overshadowed by the preferred DTS (Digital Theatre System) and Dolby Digital standards" ATRAC- do people own ATRAC or MP3 players? Elcaset- another dead proprietary audio format. SACD- Relevant as a recent Hi-def format war and my favorite example as an audiophile. Sony develops a superior audio technology (yes, even in comparison to vinyl) and then releases a handful (I'm being generous) of albums per year and advertises... wait, that's right I never saw any. Thank god for third party releases. DVD-Audio seems to have kind-of? won this format war. The end result being a public largely ignorant that either exists at all. Thanks to bad implentation and the rise of crappy but compressed MP3's, the music we listen to is at the same or worse quality(media-wise) it was in the 80's. Lastly, MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD)- never had one of these did you? That's because Philips and Sony abandoned their MMCD format and agreed upon Toshiba's SD format. This became the DVD we know and love. Sony has never been what I would call consumer friendly (2005 rootkit debacle anyone?). Though my love of games and movies has me eager to have HD and Blu-ray, my response (and others) might be to hold off until these idiots consider their customers, go back to the drawing board and come back with a unified format. One way or another we'll get one and not everyone is clamoring for a PS3... so that doesn't guarantee success other than in use as another proprietary Sony format for their products(a'la UMD). So far it looks like HD has the edge of releases, and if the price is reasonable for the Xbox360 add-on drive, there's a difficult decision coming for budget concious movie watching gamers. If the choices are HD drive and Halo3(that's right, I dropped the H-bomb) vs. a new PS3... Also, I'd like to pose a question to those more knowledgable... According to tomshardware.com and other tech savy sources, decoding encryption on new Hi-def media is going to give even recent dual core processors in pc's a hard time. Upon Sony's insistence, Blu-ray has stronger encryption from what I've read. Will HD-dvd's cause less of a performance hit on a pc than Blu-ray? If so, I think that is a pretty important consideration as well. CobaltBlue *Most info taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony#Proprietary_formats

09-22-2006, 01:05 PM	#11
CobaltBlue Banned Member since:Sep 2006	Sony format "The Blu-ray standard was jointly developed by a group of consumer electronics and PC companies called the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), spearheaded by Sony." "The first Blu-ray recorder was unveiled by Sony on March 3, 2003." Most people reference it as follows "With Toshiba being the primary promoter of the HD DVD in the battle against Sony's Blu-ray technology..."- http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/21/to...ray/index.html I think I can safely call Blu-ray a Sony product. CobaltBlue

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09-18-2006, 06:08 PM	#5
Psiweaver Special Member Member since:Jun 2006 Location:Los Angeles,CA	she just didn't want to admit that. Clearly a biased article. Thats one of things that irks me most about the format so far is how much bias there is on some message boards and how somewhere like blu-ray.com actually tends to be the least biased its wierd to me that one side has to be such extravagant claims in order to feel good about themselves.

09-18-2006, 06:42 PM	#6
Knight-Errant Power Member Member since:Aug 2005 Location:Sheffield, UK	Agreed there's been very little silencing of opposing viewpoints here.

09-18-2006, 08:54 PM	#8
Psiweaver Special Member Member since:Jun 2006 Location:Los Angeles,CA	The wierd about this whole piece is its simply that her opinion nowhere does she give really good hard facts about why her opinion is right its all pretty wishy washy.

09-22-2006, 11:48 AM	#10
Applefiend Active Member Member since:Jul 2006	Blu Ray is not a Sony format, it has multiple backers.

09-22-2006, 05:02 PM	#14
Monkey Blu-ray Knight Member since:Sep 2006 Trading Score:31	this CobaltBlue is a clown. Why hasn't he been banned yet All he is doing is barfing up false information and Fud.

09-22-2006, 05:16 PM	#15
Psiweaver Special Member Member since:Jun 2006 Location:Los Angeles,CA	The funny thing is that Sony devoloped VHS then sold it to JVC so technicly you could say they are responsible for VHS which would be a huge victory in their favor. I can't stand sony mainly because like bose they overcharge for a product based on their marketing. The one thing about sony and bose is that they have very good marketing departments. If you think Halo 3 is really going to be that amazing then feel free to go out and buy an xbox 360 because thats about the only game that you'll be playing on that system. An add on drive isn't going to sell in numbers anywhere near the PS3, yes not everyone wants one but just about every gamer i know wants one and add on the fact that the ps2 is the best selling console in history and I think the ps3 just might be a winner.

09-22-2006, 05:20 PM	#16
AV_Integrated Senior Member Member since:Jan 2005	Sony has a ton of innovations and products that they have brought to market that are phenomenal and truly cutting edge, as well as a long list of failure items. They also have a long list that sits somewhere in the middle that people insist upon putting in one category or another. Successes for Sony: Walkman - This was THE product for carrying your own music around in. Not a cheap FM radio thing, but a way to take your own tunes anywhere you wanted. CD - Which they developed with Philips. A joint venture doesn't leave the Sony name off this product's development and push. Playstation - The Sega/Nintendo juggernaut of home gaming seemed locked up for many years to come when PS1 came along and rocked the world for those companies. Sega who? Is what our kids will say, though Nintendo has toughed things out and rocked on with their Gameboy series. PSP - While no Gameboy, it is a long, long way from a flop of a product. Excellent color and reviews for gaming... who cares about the movie aspect? This thing is fun to play and almost everyone who owns one, loves it! SXRD - Sony received 'product of the year' honors for their 60" SXRD model from Home Theater Magazine (or was it S&V?). After years of incredible CRT displays, Sony comes out on top again with a significantly larger model that just looks awesome. When LCoS had a questionable future, Sony has really turned it into a viable format. Oh, and let's not forget their front projectors with the Qualia, Ruby, and now Pearl 1080p models. They are on 3rd generation front projection and now at $5,000 while the competition is just getting warmed up. While it is fair to say that Sony has had products that have not done well, it is not fair to pretend that they haven't had stellar successes with products that they have introduced either. They continue to make one of the only 400 disc DVD changers, they are sticking with LCD flat panels and avoiding DLP rear projection - with much success! Yet, in the end - Sony does not have a single Blu-ray player out on the market yet using BDA approved format guidelines. Their recorder from 2003 was nothing like what is coming out now. The first Blu-ray players are from Samsung and the worlds largest CE manufacturer: Panasonic. We may even get the Pioneer before the first Sony player shows up. This is critical because not one product that Sony has helped to develop that has failed has had so much support behind it that I am aware of. Not one or two companies making hardware and software - but dozens! The BDA is taking Sony's product and are running with it. HD-DVD, near as I can tell, is the DiVX of the HD formats. The Beta. Unlike Beta though, Blu-ray was announced and developed first. Toshiba turned its back on the format, and some naive people choose to blame Sony for their decision. This would be a single unified format if Toshiba hadn't been the hold out company.

09-22-2006, 06:15 PM	#17
CobaltBlue Banned Member since:Sep 2006	"New line Cinema supports both formats." Cool, I was under the impression from the article at the start of this topic that New Line was solely HD. Noone seemed to argue that point. LOTR will be a great candidate to showcase Blu-ray. I also thought TV series would have been a great thing to lead off with marketing-wise. West Wing Season 6, on one disc, etc. "Look at who's in the BDA...IT"S NOT JUST SONY!" Didn't the mod just reply with "You can call BD a Sony product..." Didn't I say Sony(and company). "Many years from now." Now or years from now, price and selection are what matters. Do you remember a game system called Neo-Geo. Ahead of its time, huge price tag for the system and the games. Everyone passed in favor of Nintendo. That's all I'm saying. "They won't be" You're either in charge of Sony's marketing or your crystal ball is better than mine. That's why I said "If". "won't happen. As long as HD-DVD is just Toshiba, Microsoft..." "Just Microsoft", now that's hubris. And with assurances like "Won't happen" from JTK on the Blu-ray forum, I better run and plunk down my $1000 at best buy right now. Maybe I like a lot of films by Universal or whoever is HD exclusive... why would I drop $1000 knowing I very likely won't get 100% of the films released. I'd say, unless budget is no object, it's dumb not to wait a while longer. Both camps deserve criticism for being too greedy to do right by their customers. "How so" Again, perhaps in error I was going with the article cited at the beginning of the topic. It has been common knowledge and common sense though that they are going to have most of the same issues of the 360 launch coupled with using blu-ray rather than readily available dvd. "True. It will be at least 1-2 years... The Xbox360's present hardware will most certainly hit a brick wall long before the PS3's hardware." Like I said before it won't matter. Argue if you want, but the PS2 has been obsolete for years but 99% of xbox games by third parties were still straight ports. That raises another valid point, are movie studios going to bother to make different versions if forced to publish on 2 formats to reach all consumers? Not likely. "Ah yes. I've seen this spin on AVS countless times... BD50 titles" I'm confused... so the 25 gb blu-ray movies produced so far have been inferior in some way then? At 50 gb we see the real potential? Playing Devil's Advocate here... I agree that on epics like LOTR, more space is a good thing. But that is what, maybe .5% of movies produced? "Very short term advantage. See above. Your argument is pretty much already gone and done with." No, my argument will be done with when one format has 100% of releases like its competitor, DVD. Until then you're paying too much money for limited reward which may be limited by the other medium anyway if studios release one version for both (likely). "Higher standard my ass. Those clunky Toshiba HD-DVD players... " I was referring to "On the other hand, Dolby Digital Plus support is mandatory for standalone HD DVD players at a maximum of 3 Mbit/s, while only optional for BD players and capped at 1.7 Mbit/s." "I doubt it. I think you're here as an HD-DVD fan " Right. Because I hate Sony. As I type on my Vaio x505 laptop(beautiful but overpriced). As a gamer, if they've got good games I'll have a PS3 eventually, once the hype and prices die down. In the meantime I've got a 360 that works great with a Media Center PC. So HD-DVD as a 360 add-on will likely make it into my house before Blu-Ray. But if it dies as a format in a couple of years, I won't be out $1000 either. "I think you need to look at the specs on HD DVD ..." The wikipedia entry didn't go into detail that the triple layer wasn't current spec. Now I know. A 20 gb difference will hopefully help establish blu-ray as the choice to go with for 100% of the studios. Once adopted universally, I'm there dude. If not, I'd go with VHS over laserdisc every time (and die a little inside) "The myth that 30 GB ... 4+ hour epic " Here's the thing, how many 4+ hour epics do you own? Name your top 100 4+ hour epics... ok make it 50. Still can't? I'm not saying I would rather have to put a second disc in, but to get a universal hi-def medium, if that's the only hitch, I can make that concession on less than .5% of my movies. Hopefully I won't have to. The upside is we're already used to having to do that, and we need an intermission to pee anyway. "Betamax, a technilogically superior" "I don't knock Sony for trying new things" Didn't I preface the comment with "I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation..." Sony has a crappy track record on developing its innovations, period. Noone typically argues that any more than they'd argue that Xerox has historically had the same problem. Noone thanks them for windows either, because of that exact problem. But do you really want to say beta was anything but egg on the company's face. Come on. "They use it in broadcast..." yeah that's comparable to having a unit in every home, rv, and camcorder. I'm complimentary about the company's successes and honest about the shortcomings. Coming up with SACD for example, yay! Lackluster support of SACD due to fears of its lack of encryption was as you say, weak. "add on's are notoriously failures" Very true, but if they end up selling it on the cheap, the public will have a more budget friendly path to Hi-def in the already established 360. I don't even know that MS is gearing to develop games for the drive as it would limit who could play. And as already stated on this forum elsewhere, there's no saying they couldn't eventually have a blu-ray drive as well. It will already be able to link to one on your media center pc, so why not? I'm not on here to be a cheerleader for Sony. I'm here to discuss and learn about Blu-ray AND its alternatives to inform myself as a consumer. Now that I'm enlightened to current spec limitations for HD-dvd, I agree blu-ray WOULD be a better solution when factoring in really long movies or preferably whole seasons of West Wing on 1 disc. If it doesn't garner 100% of the market, it's not going to matter. Notice I managed to do so without equating what you have to say with BS or being rude. If you make a valid point about something I was ignorant of, I'll go with your educated opinion. That's why I'm here. Should I be apologizing that I did something other than wave pom-poms for Sony(and company)? You guys seem to do enough of that for the both of us.

09-22-2006, 10:38 PM	#19
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1161 Blu-ray collection:7055 DVD collection:4063	Actually, if I remember correctly, the Beta II Hi-Fi's spec vs the SP VHS Hi-Fi's spec was just 5% better or different. (or was it the SuperBeta II Hi-Fi's spec that was 5% better? Can't remember, they were trying to leapfrog each other all the time!). So the Beta superiority wasn't really there on practice tho the "mystique" lingered on. When Super-VHS Hi-Fi came to the scene it was 33% better than even the super rare SuperBeta II Hi-Fi and that was the nail in the coffin for Beta. (Sony tried to counter with the $$$ metal tape ED Beta which was 25% better than Super-VHS but by then it was too late). So IMO in that war actually the best format won! VHS having the equivalent or better quality, features, more options, more variety in content and manufacturers, etc, that last being Sony's fault because they were practically the only ones doing Beta decks (Sanyo had a cool portable Beta Hi-Fi unit you could use for sound recordings but that was the only interesting option then!). Right now the difference between single layer BD and double layer HD DVD is 20% in favor of HD in storage capacity (but not on maximum bit rate) but that's temporary, a drop in the years of format history, since when double layer BDs arrive on the scene shortly they'll have both the 66% advantage of storage capacity AND the maximum bitrate, so they'll be able to store more content, and that content can be cleaner and sharper, and have more variety in releases and equipment. Kind of the scenario JVC, Panasonic, etc. had when Super-VHS arrived on the scene and Beta faded from consumers electronics forever. Beta I arrived first and was superior for a while. But the VHS camp followed with an unified front and format upgrades that made it equal or better in the long run. Looks like history repeating itself to me!

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