Diminishing Returns: Cabling

[Intamin]

I think we can all agree that with audio diminishing returns exists. I was wondering if there was a consensus as to where this comes into play with interconnects/power cables. For example, is the difference between Nordost's middle of the line interconnects to their Odin or Vallhalla interconnects huge, or is it a tiny difference (for those with experience)? Does diminishing returns kick in at a lower level with interconnects, or is there still a lot to gain with advancement through manufacturers' interconnect series?

PS: I am not talking about speaker cable.

[Johnny Vinyl]

I don't have personal experience with the Nordost line of products, but I suppose it would benefit you if the equipment you owned had the internal sensitivities (for lack of a better word) to recognize the extolling virtues of higher end cables.

I myself am a big believer in upgrading all cabling whenever the componant I introduce to my system is far above the unit it is replacing.

Did this make sense?

John

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by John72953

I don't have personal experience with the Nordost line of products, but I suppose it would benefit you if the equipment you owned had the internal sensitivities (for lack of a better word) to recognize the extolling virtues of higher end cables.

I myself am a big believer in upgrading all cabling whenever the componant I introduce to my system is far above the unit it is replacing.

Did this make sense?

John

That makes perfect sense, and it's actually what I do/believe in as well. I was just using Nordost as an example, since I'm sure many people are familiar. I was more interested in the bigger picture though, for all manufacturers generally where diminishing returns kicks in. With speakers, it takes a while to really start to see it, didn't know if that was still the case with interconnects.

[Johnny Vinyl]

The formula I've always used is about 15% of the value of my system. It's worked well as I'm happy with all of my connections. Perhaps one day, if I'm able to, I'll go to a 20% formula, because I really would like to find out at what point my investment starts to roll back.

John

[rded]

Originally Posted by John72953

The formula I've always used is about 15% of the value of my system. It's worked well as I'm happy with all of my connections. Perhaps one day, if I'm able to, I'll go to a 20% formula, because I really would like to find out at what point my investment starts to roll back.

John

Ditto John! My 3 front cables plus my IC approches $1.4k. I actually had the chance of upgrading to all Heimdall. But I thought adding a new sub or upgrading to Cofidence 2 or getting a 2nd 2-channel system will work better for me. My delear gave me a very tempting deal on the C2s but the wife gave me an ultimatum on the TT and integrated amp for the 2nd system She said: "the sooner you get the TT and integ amp, the sooner you'll be able to upgrade to the C2s!"

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by rded

Ditto John! My 3 front cables plus my IC approches $1.4k. I actually had the chance of upgrading to all Heimdall. But I thought adding a new sub or upgrading to Cofidence 2 or getting a 2nd 2-channel system will work better for me. My delear gave me a very tempting deal on the C2s but the wife gave me an ultimatum on the TT and integrated amp for the 2nd system She said: "the sooner you get the TT and integ amp, the sooner you'll be able to upgrade to the C2s!"

You gotta love the ladies!

I think many people, if not most (even on this forum), would tell us that we are wasting our money incorporating better accessories (such as cabling, wire, stands, isolation tweaks, etc). Even with my entry-level system I can tell the difference good upgrades make. I can only imagine what those differences would be like on a system like yours, Intamin and naturephoto1(Rich).

John

[richteer]

Originally Posted by John72953

The formula I've always used is about 15% of the value of my system. It's worked well as I'm happy with all of my connections. Perhaps one day, if I'm able to, I'll go to a 20% formula, because I really would like to find out at what point my investment starts to roll back.

John

I think somewhere between 10% and 20% is a good rule of thumb. If nothing else, it helps keep one's spending in check! For example, I'd love the bragging rights that would come with using Valhalla between my preamp and power amps, but even if I keep my room configuration the same (which I don't wnat to do), using a $6k cable to connect a $1k preamp to a $3.5k pair of amps just isn't sensible!

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Intamin

That makes perfect sense, and it's actually what I do/believe in as well. I was just using Nordost as an example, since I'm sure many people are familiar. I was more interested in the bigger picture though, for all manufacturers generally where diminishing returns kicks in. With speakers, it takes a while to really start to see it, didn't know if that was still the case with interconnects.

Part of this will be entirely dependent upon the ability and capabilities as well as the resolving power of your components. As Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company likes to tell me, ultimately the limiting factor in high resolving components (like his upgraded units) is the cabling and power cords.

Rich

[rded]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Part of this will be entirely dependent upon the ability and capabilities as well as the resolving power of your components. As Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company likes to tell me, ultimately the limiting factor in high resolving components (like his upgraded units) is the cabling and power cords.

Rich

Yup! That'll be my next project. Getting nordost or shunyata power cords, a new power conditioner to replace my F*ckin monster Power cond and this

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Part of this will be entirely dependent upon the ability and capabilities as well as the resolving power of your components. As Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company likes to tell me, ultimately the limiting factor in high resolving components (like his upgraded units) is the cabling and power cords.

Rich

Power cords are also my next area of upgrade, as well as a power conditioner. And I'm with you John, I notice a difference, and while I have done no "scientific" tests, I have done comparisons and enjoyed the improvement. Plus, it's fun little tweaks like getting new cables and what not that are part of the enjoyment of this hobby.

[rded]

Originally Posted by Intamin

I think we can all agree that with audio diminishing returns exists. I was wondering if there was a consensus as to where this comes into play with interconnects/power cables. For example, is the difference between Nordost's middle of the line interconnects to their Odin or Vallhalla interconnects huge, or is it a tiny difference (for those with experience)? Does diminishing returns kick in at a lower level with interconnects, or is there still a lot to gain with advancement through manufacturers' interconnect series?

PS: I am not talking about speaker cable.

I just ordered Nordost Red Dawn 1.5m DIN to RCA interconnects. The red dawn series sits in th middle of the pack(its the to tier flatline cable next to the norse series). From what I've been told by my dealer, it has 50% of the performance of the Valhalla ICs. The high the line in the Nordost series, the more revealing the cable becomes. It will expose all/any the weaknesses in your system.Sorry, I can't answer about diminishing returns...

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Intamin

I think we can all agree that with audio diminishing returns exists. I was wondering if there was a consensus as to where this comes into play with interconnects/power cables. For example, is the difference between Nordost's middle of the line interconnects to their Odin or Vallhalla interconnects huge, or is it a tiny difference (for those with experience)? Does diminishing returns kick in at a lower level with interconnects, or is there still a lot to gain with advancement through manufacturers' interconnect series?

PS: I am not talking about speaker cable.

I think there's definately a law of diminishing returns, but one needs to consider it in a system context. Sticking with Nordost's offerings (as you suggested, and because I'm somewhat familiar with them), it would be absolutely pointless hooking a cheap CD player to a cheap receiver using Valhalla: we'd be way beyond the point of diminishing returns. Using something like Blue Heaven would be much more sensible.

I use a $1200 1.5m length of Nordost Frey between my turntable and preamp. Frey is at the top of the their Norse series, abouve which (in ascending order) there is Tyr and Valhalla in the Reference range, and Odin in the Supreme Reference range. In the context of my current system, I think Frey is about as far as I should sensibly take it, but once I've upgraded my amps and cartridge (and possibly speakers), Valhalla would be an appropriate cable choice.

The ICs between my preamp and power amps, and my speaker cables, are woefully inadequate (especially the IC). I need to get them upgraded to Frey as soon as I can. Trouble is, a 6m pair of Frey ICs ain't cheap...

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by Intamin

I think we can all agree that with audio diminishing returns exists. I was wondering if there was a consensus as to where this comes into play with interconnects/power cables. For example, is the difference between Nordost's middle of the line interconnects to their Odin or Vallhalla interconnects huge, or is it a tiny difference (for those with experience)? Does diminishing returns kick in at a lower level with interconnects, or is there still a lot to gain with advancement through manufacturers' interconnect series?

PS: I am not talking about speaker cable.

I am not sure where the diminishing return between the price of the cables kicks in, but to me it always seemed like the investment should make sense in the overall system.

For example, if buying an average low or mid end receiver, why invest in expensive cables when putting the money towards a better receiver might bring better return? Not to say that the cables don't make a difference, just that often time the investment could be put towards something that will make more of a difference, especially the speakers.

So I try to keep it reasonable, I want good quality interconnects but try to save the majority of my investment in other parts of the system.