is the Cell Processor good for game development..you betcha..read on

[joeorc]

i have heard this since the Cell processor was introduced and people then claimed that the Cell Processor was not good for game developers because
its "not a general purpose processor" or the SPE's are not good for game's

well guess where the main processor manuf. are heading with their processors for games...


News Hardware
Intel Reveals More on the Larrabee
Techtree News Staff
Aug 4, 2008
Intel shared details with the press about their discrete GPU chip - Larrabee at San Francisco. As part of Intel's Tera-scale research program, the Larrabee will be a standalone graphics chip to deliver stream processing (GP-GPU) performance, enabling full CPU programmability and support for OpenGL and DirectX APIs carrying many x86 architecture-based cores. However, Intel didn't share the number cores in Larrabee and how they'll be different from the graphic chips used by Nvidia and AMD-ATI.

Based on the Pentium processor core design, the Larrabee chips are scalable from 8 to 48 cores. Larrabee's design is enhanced with vector processing unit, multi-threading, 64-bit extensions, and pre-fetching. The x86 design will offer full support to current graphical APIs. With support for highly parallel computing applications, developers can develop new highly specialised graphics APIs as well as generic CPU APIs for new features.

Larry Seiler, chief architect of Intel's visual computing group, said, "What the graphics and general data parallel application market needs is an architecture that provides the full programming abilities of a CPU, and the full capabilities of a GPU together with the parallelism inherent in graphics processors. This is exactly what the Larrabee provides, and is a practical solution to the limitations of current graphics processors."

Larrabee's architecture has 1024 bits-wide bi-directional network, 512 bits in each direction, for faster communication with low latency between the cores.

Due for release in 2009 or 2010, Intel intends to target the high-end PC gaming market and industries, such as natural resources exploration, that need multi-parallel processing and graphics support. Larrabee will compete with the standalone GPU majors like Nvidia and AMD. However, as Intel executives admitted, it's uncertain whether it will become the preferred choice over gaming consoles.

http://www.techtree.com/India/News/I...91786-581.html

sound's just like another processor i know of....

o'l ya the Cell...

but..but its x86 its going to be better than the Cell processor for games... "standard response by fanboys from the xbox360"

it just goes to show STI know just like the others where game processors are headed.

[Icemage]

Actually the Xbox 360's processor isn't an x86 instruction set chip either. It bears more resemblance to the Cell than it does to an Intel Pentium 4.

[xtop]

why would an xbox fanboy say x86 was better?

i dont see this processor replacing video cards any time soon tho

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Actually the Xbox 360's processor isn't an x86 instruction set chip either. It bears more resemblance to the Cell than it does to an Intel Pentium 4.

yup..it was Built by IBM..all the current generation game consoles all have IBM processors in them.

IE: POWER PROCESSORS

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by xtop

why would an xbox fanboy say x86 was better?

i dont see this processor replacing video cards any time soon tho

its not going to happen over night that is for sure but i do see how it could,
because with todays nm die shrink netting greater results in processor power per die size ,with CPU's and GPU's combined into one or two chips that can be socket or embedded onto the PCB, less bottle necks LESS COST IN PRODUCTION. greater reduction in overhead. etc more and more chip makers are designing new GPU's with more capability than being used for just graphics.on the same token more CPU's are being designed with the capability
to handle GPU centric tasks better than before.

as for why would the xbox fanboy say the x86 was better. its simple

because they have in their head that the x86 IS STILL better than POWER FOR GAME DEVELOPMENT. Because that's what WINDOWS was designed to run on and its the basis of the majority of PC's uses for their OS,
which is what most of the developers make games for.

which from a market standpoint i would agree with "for right now"

from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with x86 being the better processors which INMO they are not because the power processors yield better results for MEDIA , which includes "games" than the x86. because the power processors are cooler, less watt's /processing
speed per clock cycle.

[jkwest]

this thread reminds me of a Snoopy episode.....waaawaaawaaawaaa...I just don't understand any of it.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by jkwest

this thread reminds me of a Snoopy episode.....waaawaaawaaawaaa...I just don't understand any of it.

Well, I have good news and bad news for ya.

Good news - you can learn to understand what is being said, if you really desire to know.

Bad news - it will take some time and effort. Google is your friend. If you decide to try and get caught up somewhere, I could help you via chat on the PS3. Just PM me.
------------------------------
Getting back to the thread...

I wasn't aware Larrabee was using 64-bit extensions. The Cell uses 128-bit extensions AFAIK.

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

Well, I have good news and bad news for ya.

Good news - you can learn to understand what is being said, if you really desire to know.

Bad news - it will take some time and effort. Google is your friend. If you decide to try and get caught up somewhere, I could help you via chat on the PS3. Just PM me.
------------------------------
Getting back to the thread...

I wasn't aware Larrabee was using 64-bit extensions. The Cell uses 128-bit extensions AFAIK.

and now today looky..looky

Blog: AMD Fusion to Compete with Intel's Larrabee
There are reports that AMD has a CPU/GPU in the works, code named Shrike, that will compete with Intel's Larrabee.

Daniel Ionescu, PC World Blogger
Aug 5, 2008 9:45 am

One day after Intel officially released details on its Larrabee platform, the chipmaker's rival AMD leaked details of its own competing Fusion CPU and GPU single chip, code-named Shrike. A number of sources are reporting AMD is leveraging its acquisition of ATI and will soon release the chip consisting of a dual-core Phenom CPU with an ATI RV800 GPU core. The chip will be DirectX 10.1 compatible and is expected to debut on a 40nm platform, courtesy of chip manufacturer TSMC, according to a TG Daily report.

What this means for consumers is a race of one-upmanship in the graphics card space between Intel and AMD to deliver better looking PC-based games and video in very high detail.

The leaked details also reveal that Shrike is scheduled to transition to 32nm at the beginning of 2010, "coincidentally" when Intel's 10-plus core chips will be launched, also on 32nm technology.

Following yesterday's Intel reports, it seems that AMD upped the game and put Fusion on the front burner as a way to compete with Intel's Larrabee - at least in the near future.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/14940..._larrabee.html

where o'l where have we heard of processors like this... ,
o'l yea once again "the Cell Processor"

[xtop]

multiple cores didnt start on the cell.

and i wouldnt count on amd delivering a good cpu, my poor cpu company sucks lately

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by xtop;1066044[B

]multiple cores didnt start on the cell[/B].

and i wouldnt count on amd delivering a good cpu, my poor cpu company sucks lately

thats not what i was saying at all..

if you notice both AMD and INTEL are now going to release CPU/GPU combo chips..thats exactly what the Cell processor is ..a CPU/GPU combo chip.

[xtop]

Originally Posted by joeorc

thats not what i was saying at all..

if you notice both AMD and INTEL are now going to release CPU/GPU combo chips..thats exactly what the Cell processor is ..a CPU/GPU combo chip.

it is?

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by xtop

it is?

yes it is :

Why do you think they have the Cell Processor adds upto 30 billion shader ops/sec to the RSX 76.4 BILLION SHADER OPS

EXAMPLE:

New Type of Processor

The designers have disclosed a basic Cell architecture that includes eight special-purpose elements (SPE) controlled by a single 64-bit PowerPC CPU. Each SPE is a simplified processor capable of eight single-precision floating-point operations per cycle. By simplifying these elements and focusing on speed, the SPEs can operate at 4GHz. At this speed, the chip can execute 256 billion floating-point operations per second (256 GFLOPS), more than most supercomputers today.

Initial Applications

Cell's design is optimized for video games, which will be its initial application. Video games require a tremendous amount of floating-point computation to render realistic images. This computation is typically performed using single-precision calculations rather than the more rigorous double-precision mode used for scientific applications. High memory and I/O bandwidth are needed to move graphics data into and out of the chip.

The initial Cell processor contains 21 million transistors. Even in a 90nm process, the chip is rather large at 221mm2. The chip relies on Rambus XDR memory for high bandwidth and uses a proprietary 76GB/s bus to connect to other processors and to I/O devices.

The large die size will increase the cost of manufacturing the Cell chip. As a result, the initial PlayStation 3 units will have a much higher price tag than the current PlayStation 2. During the lifetime of the PlayStation 3, however, the processor will go through at least two die shrinks, greatly reducing its manufacturing cost. The Cell chip is about the same size as the Emotion Engine used in the first PlayStation 2 systems and will follow a similar cost curve.

This high cost, however, will prevent the initial Cell chip from being used in most consumer applications. Sony says it will use the chip to provide advanced video functions in some high-end HDTV models, but the chip is too expensive and has too much performance to be used across Sony's TV lineup. IBM plans to build computer systems combining several Cell processors. These systems will be excellent for 3D animation and video editing, but they will be less well suited to scientific tasks that require double-precision floating point.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article...061116/123810/

[xtop]

copy and paste whatever article you want. the cell isnt a cpu/gpu combo.

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by xtop

copy and paste whatever article you want. the cell isnt a cpu/gpu combo.

do please XTOP tell me why it is not...?

what is the purpose of a GPU to render graphics..yes
can the Cell Processor Render GRAPHICS without the GPU...yes
and since the Cell Processor can render 30 BILLION SHADER OPP'S/SEC is not a GPU huh... what ever man

[xtop]

Originally Posted by joeorc

do please XTOP tell me why it is not...?

what is the purpose of a GPU to render graphics..yes
can the Cell Processor Render GRAPHICS without the GPU...yes
and since the Cell Processor can render 30 BILLION SHADER OPP'S/SEC is not a GPU huh... what ever man

just because it can do it, doesnt make it as such. it isnt a dedicated cpu and a dedicated gpu like youre talking

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by xtop

just because it can do it, doesnt make it as such. it isnt a dedicated cpu and a dedicated gpu like youre talking

did you not read the articles i just posted..the design's of these x86 chips is along the same lines as the Cell...

dedicated can mean many things in parts of the CPU's or GPU's these days in chip design which is as you can see is more and more alike across the board .

if you notice parts of the chip can be dedicated for GPU or CPU functions .. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ITS NOT A DEDICATED CHIP as a whole.

[xtop]

Originally Posted by joeorc

did you not read the articles i just posted..the design's of these x86 chips is along the same lines as the Cell...

dedicated can mean many things in parts of the CPU's or GPU's these days in chip design which is as you can see is more and more alike across the board .

if you notice parts of the chip can be dedicated for GPU or CPU functions .. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ITS NOT A DEDICATED CHIP as a whole.

well from the one article you listed they say floating point calculations are a big part of video game graphics, so if we go by that, can't any cpu be labeled a gpu? since they can all do floating point calculations?

if the cell was designed as a cpu/gpu chip like the one intel and amd are releasing, why does the ps3 have a dedicated graphics card to compliment the cell?

i'm not saying the cell can't do it, but it does it poorly compared to the actual gpu in the ps3.

i guess my bigger point is, you're acting like ibm invented this with the cell. was the cell even the first to have this technology? cause i'm betting not

[xtop]

haha i guess i gotta shut my trap about it not being like the cell

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=3367

Well, it is important to keep in mind that this is first and foremost NOT a GPU. It's a CPU. A many-core CPU that is optimized for data-parallel processing. What's the difference? Well, there is very little fixed function hardware, and the hardware is targeted to run general purpose code as easily as possible. The bottom lines is that Intel can make this very wide many-core CPU look like a GPU by implementing software libraries to handle DirectX and OpenGL.

It's not quite emulating a GPU as it is directly implementing functionality on a data-parallel CPU that would normally be done on dedicated hardware. And developers will not be limited to just DirectX and OpenGL: this hardware can take pure software renderers and run them as if the hardware was designed specifically for that code.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

To sum it all up, the PS3 is, basically, a giant GPGPU. It's one big massively parallel rendering system. It's kind of isn't it?!

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

To sum it all up, the PS3 is, basically, a giant GPGPU. It's one big massively parallel rendering system. It's kind of isn't it?!

yup..like i said before when the Cell Processor can do upwards upto 30 billion shader ops/sec. in my book thats a GPU... .which as you can see Both AMD and INTEL are also heading in that direction....with designs CPU/GPU combo chips.