I fear for 4k Disks...

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

A well-mastered DVD on a correctly calibrated 4K display is still exceedingly watchable IMO, but I've even had old non-anamorphic DVDs up on it and they were surprisingly tolerable.

I draw the line at laserdisc though, there's just not enough resolution there when zoomed in and the chroma noise and other artefacts make viewing a chore rather than a pleasure.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. I tried projecting movies via LD onto an 106 inch screen. It was unwatchable in my opinion but of course the sound rocked! I decided that smaller is better for LD but it was worth a try. I still watch lasers from time to time though. I have quite a few Hong Kong titles that never made it to DVD or they did the revisionist thing to the soundtrack. So those titles end up being the best investment! Who knew...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by harpolini

The only thing I fear for 4K disc is that there will be no standards.
Will we see the same mixed bag we see now with dated transfers, horrid digital tweaking, poor encoding, etc?...

Well, to be honest, there is one potential pitfall I can foresee for consumers which would involve, shall we say, less *energetic* content creators.

The case would be for motion pictures planned from the get-go to have an HDR (as well as an SDR version), the SDR version of the movie could potentially be degraded. What I mean is that instead of the producer doing two grades, e.g. separate HDR and SDR masters, one method being like so, *a less-caring* content creator could lackadaisically take an initially produced HDR master and then, instead of doing a dedicated trim pass, just do a one push button transform to make the SDR master…..thusly, the SDR iteration of the motion picture could significantly suffer as regards to optimal picture quality as to what it could have been (by otherwise doing a dedicated trim for the SDR).

But other than that, I am hopeful for a higher community ‘standard’ in PQ outcome with Ultra HD Blu-ray, as compared to traditional Blu-ray.

[Geoff D]

Man, I ****ing hope that doesn't happen. It's bad enough I can't enjoy most of what UHD BD will bring to the table with my current 4K TV (no HDR/WCG), but I'd also have to contend with a poorly converted regular Blu-ray too?! Talk about being caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Studios like Lionsgate are lazy enough when it comes to stuff like banding, I can see them doing an HDR master and then a one touch SDR conversion for the regular Blu-ray, with the banding on top!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Man, I ****ing hope that doesn't happen. It's bad enough I can't enjoy....

In the entertainment business, I’d never rule out someone….somewhere….at some point in time (esp. if someone designs a semi-decent transform) cutting corners in order to …..

Old School - Snoop Dogg.mp4 - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

trim pass

For the sake of new readers/members unfamiliar with the term ‘trim pass’….as an analogy, there is a more detailed post from 2013 as to how the phrase/concept relates to grading for P3 -> Rec. 709 color conversion for a traditional Blu-ray, or other home deliverable, here

So....even with an excellent display transform, which gets you some of the way there to the final look with a *flick of a switch*, so to speak,

in order to produce an optimized Rec.709 (color) version of a feature motion picture, it has been the custom for high end post facilities to dedicate more time/effort (roughly average booking time ~2 days for high end movies, but that varies depending on the technician and the filmmaker/production) in order to fine tune with what’s called a ‘trim pass’ of the original (P3) grade.

[Geoff D]

....and that's exactly why I've repeatedly expressed my concern over UHD players being able to do that in real time (for non WCG/HDR 4K sets like mine) and that's just for the colour, never mind the dynamic range on top. If I'm to shell out on UHD BD then I want a properly optimised Rec.709 SDR output, not a version which gets you some of the way there. But, as I mentioned above, if they do start half-assing the regular Blu-rays then where does that leave my carefully calibrated display with *any* newly produced HD/UHD content? Up shit creek, that's where. Even though I love its performance I'm starting to wish I'd never bought this damned 4K TV. I ain't laughing, Penton.

[bobbydrugar]

Your thoughts on this geoff are basically what you should fear most about 4k UHD. Products (TV's, AVR's, Players) that are released without any kind of basic level of performance standard. for example 4k tv's were released while the industry knew that they did not have a playback method and knowing that resolution was not the only thing up for discussion at the time. Until there was at least a basic understanding of a delivery mechanic they never should have released the Display's. I mean we have 4k TV's that have HDMI 1.4 connectors that will never do UHD 60Hz playback. we have UHD sets that don't support WCG/HDR. We have 4K AVR's that don't support 60Hz video passthrough or any of the new audio formats.

I get that these technologies are technically early adopter devices and buyer beware and all that but don't put those devices at wallmart/bestbuy etc. because there is no protection (in the form of knowledgeable staff) to warn the consumer. And in the short term this looks good on paper (financially) but in the long run consumer confidence is I think starting to fall off and that will lead to lower sales down the road. Again DVD is fairly old at this point but many consumers bought into that and think that Blu-ray was not needed because it "isn't a big enough change". Now we are coming our with 4k (and it wasn't even a standard) and some consumers willing to take a shot and bought into it are already getting burned by these roaming specs.

I Think UHD does have a very tough uphill battle.

T

[Geoff D]

Two years ago I went in with my eyes wide open, or so I thought. I knew I'd be getting no WCG (naively assuming that the colour transform would be a seamless affair) and I knew my TV could only do 4K60 at 8-bit 4:2:0, fair enough, but HDR completely broadsided me and I'm just not confident that I'll be getting a fully realised downconvert from both WCG *and* HDR sources. No way am I paying premium prices and (possibly) putting up with online authentication for a mere increase in spatial resolution with less than optimal renditions of dynamic range and colour.

Will that bother all the other early 4K adopters so long as UHD BD plays on their TV, given all of the horror stories about HDMI 2.0 and all that shit? Probably not, but I'm a fiend for all that calibration stuff and it irks me that my precious accuracy could end up being flushed down the toilet. Harumph, harumph harumph. I didn't get a 'harumph' outta that guy...

[Geoff D]

And to add insult to injury for the 2013/2014 Sony 4K adopters, Sony's 2015 sets have just had their HDR firmware upgrade which has also enabled 18 Gb/s throughput on the HDMI inputs, to go with the existing DCI-P3 colour space selection and 10-point white balance for calibration. It's amazing how much this crap changes in a year.

[bailey1987]

I was in the same position with HD, to begin with I chose HD-DVD we all know how that went, secondly I had a Samsung R7 1080i TV because who knew 1080p at 24fps would be a thing? Third I got a Pioneer Kuro PDP which was supposed to solve all problems and it did for a year then 3D came along.

To compound matters further I had the Onkyo 605 which had Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA but I couldn't hear any difference between standard DTS and Dolby 5.1, so assuming that the problem lay in the the fact that the Onkyos were among the first AV receivers to offer the next generation audio formats I figured that must be why so I got a new pioneer one, same difference!

Needless to say just a Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc Player will suffice to begin with and I intend to keep it until 3D rears it's head again.

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Harumph, harumph harumph. I didn't get a 'harumph' outta that guy...

"You watch your ass!"

I guess the solution for those of us on limited budgets is to play the waiting game until this technology catches up with itself. I've also been stung myself a bit. Around 2008 or so I bought a HD projector and for like 3 months I was "state of the art". That is until 3D came around the corner. One thing I want from 4K is 3D compatibility. At the very least I want to be able to play my 3D Blu-ray's at the maximum quality the disc offers. Is that going to be possible?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Two years ago I went in with my eyes wide open, or so I thought. I knew I'd be getting no WCG (naively assuming that the colour transform would be a seamless affair) and I knew my TV could only do 4K60 at 8-bit 4:2:0, fair enough, but HDR completely broadsided me and I'm just not confident that I'll be getting a fully realised downconvert from both WCG *and* HDR sources. No way am I paying premium prices and (possibly) putting up with online authentication for a mere increase in spatial resolution with less than optimal renditions of dynamic range and colour.

Will that bother all the other early 4K adopters so long as UHD BD plays on their TV, given all of the horror stories about HDMI 2.0 and all that shit? Probably not, but I'm a fiend for all that calibration stuff and it irks me that my precious accuracy could end up being flushed down the toilet. Harumph, harumph harumph. I didn't get a 'harumph' outta that guy...

Ah c'mon Geoff, you've enjoyed that TV for like 2 years now? Isn't that worth anything to you? If we always wait until technology 'catches up with itself' then we'll be waiting forever. Sure if you see some improvement right around the corner then yeah, wait. But man waiting 2-3 years is a long time to wait when you're due for an upgrade. Besides, nobody knew how long those extra bells and whistles would be coming out anyway and how much more it would add to the cost.

I've got one of those 'obsolete' Sony 4K TVs (65X900a), but I love it and I don't plan to upgrade until it's time to upgrade (which means when I feel like it and have the extra cash).

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And to add insult to injury for the 2013/2014 Sony 4K adopters, Sony's 2015 sets have just had their HDR firmware upgrade which has also enabled 18 Gb/s throughput on the HDMI inputs, to go with the existing DCI-P3 colour space selection and 10-point white balance for calibration. It's amazing how much this crap changes in a year.

This is why I won't touch anything that is UHD for a while yet. I'm thinking it's going to take at least two more years to settle down.

[bobbydrugar]

I do wonder how long the market can sustain this constant evolution nonsense. The to put it clearly 4k is going to likely suffer the sins of it's predecessor. I think back to DVD and the very first DVD player I ever bought to this day still plays every single DVD disk made then and now without any issue or any feeling that I did not get a fully featured DVD player. You know why because DVD is DVD is DVD. fast forward several years and I buy my first blu-ray player. next thing I needed was a new TV because wow this hd stuff is cool (by the way that didn't happen with my DVD player when my 13 year old CRT with turn dial tuning was still good enough). Then we get these new Audio Codecs (Dolby True-hd and DTS-HD-Master) and low and behold I need to upgrade my AVR. A couple years later they added profile what was it 2.0 and I needed a new Blu-ray player with memory support. Then came 3D and well you guessed it new TV, New AVR, New Blu-ray player (it was at this point I was thinking to myself WTF just happened why is a Blu-ray not a Blu-ray anymore). So I finally get caught up on blu-ray and all the bells and whistles and WHAM UHD-Blu-Ray, I mean What the F*** is going on. Knowing what I know now and having watched this 4K Bull$**! happening in real time I can honestly say that at this point I am done, and I think it is probably safe to say that I am likely not alone in that. If they want to sell me on new tech anymore then they need to have inplace a set standard going into the tech with a road map of the tech and some semblance of stability for at least a few years. But since they are already Demoing 8K sets at CES last year I can only assume that 4K will not last to be replaced by the next big hotness very shortly.

So the long of it is based on recent experience I am done as the industry has no respect for the consumer and are just Macrotransactioning ($1000 televisions and avrs are not micro-transactions) us to death.

T

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Ah c'mon Geoff, you've enjoyed that TV for like 2 years now? Isn't that worth anything to you? If we always wait until technology 'catches up with itself' then we'll be waiting forever. Sure if you see some improvement right around the corner then yeah, wait. But man waiting 2-3 years is a long time to wait when you're due for an upgrade. Besides, nobody knew how long those extra bells and whistles would be coming out anyway and how much more it would add to the cost.

I've got one of those 'obsolete' Sony 4K TVs (65X900a), but I love it and I don't plan to upgrade until it's time to upgrade (which means when I feel like it and have the extra cash).

Dude, I *know* tech doesn't stand still and it never will, and I think my TV is badass (though not $5K's worth of badass, more fool me). But every time I think I've got a bead on this 4K situation the rug gets pulled from under me - I thought working in electrical retail for the best part of 14 years would help keep me savvy, if anything it's made me more naive - and what's annoying me the most here is that the manufacturers KNEW what was being worked on by the BDA these last few years. Sure, building in HDR support wasn't possible yet the 4K early adopters weren't even thrown the bone of P3 colour space which has been around for years. Like I said above, I know that change is inevitable but for the Sony 4K sets to turn from SDR Rec.709 10.2 Gb/s into HDR P3 18 Gb/s in the space of one single product generation (using very similar internal tech) takes the piss. So there's no way I'm jumping into UHD BD head first, I've been burned so many times over the years and I really should know better.

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dude, I *know* tech doesn't stand still and it never will, and I think my TV is badass (though not $5K's worth of badass, more fool me). But every time I think I've got a bead on this 4K situation the rug gets pulled from under me - I thought working in electrical retail for the best part of 14 years would help keep me savvy, if anything it's made me more naive - and what's annoying me the most here is that the manufacturers KNEW what was being worked on by the BDA these last few years. Sure, building in HDR support wasn't possible yet the 4K early adopters weren't even thrown the bone of P3 colour space which has been around for years. Like I said above, I know that change is inevitable but for the Sony 4K sets to turn from SDR Rec.709 10.2 Gb/s into HDR P3 18 Gb/s in the space of one single product generation (using very similar internal tech) takes the piss. So there's no way I'm jumping into UHD BD head first, I've been burned so many times over the years and I really should know better.

So what does that all mean? Will UHD BD work on your 4K TV? How does this effect you in the future for your 4K viewing? Is the evolution of what's happening now to 4K TV kind of like 1080i to 1080p?

[raygendreau]

So, licensing started yesterday. Equipment manufacturers tight lipped. May have to wait for IFA. New Forbes article by Archer:

read:http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinio...tra-hd-blu-ray

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

....and that's exactly why I've repeatedly expressed my concern over UHD players being able to do that in real time (for non WCG/HDR 4K sets like mine) and that's just for the colour, never mind the dynamic range on top. If I'm to shell out on UHD BD then I want a properly optimised Rec.709 SDR output...

Unless proper care is taken in color space conversion, yes, it is possible that material that is mastered in P3 gamut could end up looking worse on a BT.709 color gamut display, than material which was mastered in the BT. 709 color space. So, in the case of early adopters, if the Ultra HD Blu-ray player’s P3 -> BT.709 gamut mapping potentially aided by colorist metadata, doesn’t prove a good enough approximation of the original (P3) grade, then there is another alternative for Ultra HD Blu-ray content creators, e.g. the Ultra HD BD spec (as well as, for that matter, SMPTE 2036-1:2013) does allow for Rec. 709 color space to be used with a 2160p raster.

Meaning, you wouldn’t necessarily have to depend on the player’s color conversion, for it’s possible for the consumer to get a 4K dedicated BT.709 Ultra HD Blu-ray movie from the get-go…..if the studio was compelled to offer it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

So what does that all mean? Will UHD BD work on your 4K TV? How does this effect you in the future for your 4K viewing? Is the evolution of what's happening now to 4K TV kind of like 1080i to 1080p?

Yes, it will work but it'll have to be converted 'on the fly' from the DCI-P3 HDR encode that's on the disc to a Rec.709 SDR version, and I'm just not convinced that this process will be truly be accurate enough to properly convey what the Rec.709 SDR graded version (i.e. what's on the regular Blu-ray) should look like.

Originally Posted by raygendreau

So, licensing started yesterday. Equipment manufacturers tight lipped. May have to wait for IFA. New Forbes article by Archer:

read:http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinio...tra-hd-blu-ray

Heh, even now there's still misinformation about what the older sets can and can't do. Contrary to what Archer says, Sony's 2013 4K sets are perfectly capable of 2160p60 playback over HDMI, albeit with a 8-bit 4:2:0 restriction. He's confusing it with the HDCP 2.2 hardware upgrade that was necessary for the first production runs of the X9A series.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Unless proper care is taken in color space conversion, yes, it is possible that material that is mastered in P3 gamut could end up looking worse on a BT.709 color gamut display, than material which was mastered in the BT. 709 color space. So, in the case of early adopters, if the Ultra HD Blu-ray player’s P3 -> BT.709 gamut mapping potentially aided by colorist metadata, doesn’t prove a good enough approximation of the original (P3) grade, then there is another alternative for Ultra HD Blu-ray content creators, e.g. the Ultra HD BD spec (as well as, for that matter, SMPTE 2036-1:2013) does allow for Rec. 709 color space to be used with a 2160p raster.

Meaning, you wouldn’t necessarily have to depend on the player’s color conversion, for it’s possible for the consumer to get a 4K dedicated BT.709 Ultra HD Blu-ray movie from the get-go…..if the studio was compelled to offer it.

I know that .709 can be used in that manner with UHD BD mastering but I can't see the studios offering multiple versions, it'd be much too confusing for the consumer. It's possible that we may see movies released in .709 outright because no-one wants to spring for a new grade on an existing 4K home video master (which is the sort of laziness we sometimes see with new format launches), but I won't be buying a £500+ player just on the off chance I *might* get some .709 content thrown my way.