Matrix, whats the deal?

[FendersRule]

Originally Posted by Gremal

You cannot count up opinions and claim to be objective unless you are doing a survey--and even then you have to run statistics on the data and show that your analysis is unbiased. Individual opinions are not surveys, nor are reviews.

Again, you are not listening.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Opinion

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Statement

1. a communication or declaration in speech or writing, setting forth facts, particulars, etc.

I find it hard to believe that you are a reviewer. If you are disagreeing with my statements, then I hope you do not review movies. For example, you could find a movie horrible in your own way (maybe you hold a grudge on a certain actor, or maybe you don't like the producer), while 99% of all other reviewers find it extremely acceptable and noteworthy. Therefore, you base your review completely on your personal beliefs.

You should know by now, that reviewers do not base products due to personal opinion or beliefs. They rate products due to facts, objective statements, or on specific commonalities.

In-fact, someone on Gamespot just got fired because of this:

http://www.qj.net/GameSpot-editorial.../49/aid/108796

Think about it. No one gets fired or beaten for having opinions. People get fired or criticized for making unjust statements.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by FendersRule

I find it hard to believe that you are a reviewer.

I find it hard to believe that you studied a scientific discipline because you are ultimately aiming to superimpose objective criteria on subjective realms.

For example, you could find a movie horrible in your own way, while 99% of all other reviewers find it extremely acceptable. Therefor, you base your opinion completely on your personal beliefs.

Like it or not, reviews are based on personal beliefs as they apply to observations about the movie. There is no way to separate the two. What you expect from reviews reminds me of those who want to remove grain from film.

You should know by now, that reviewers products due to personal opinion. They rate products due to facts, objective statements, or on specific commonalities.

Maybe if you're reviewing a measurable product, e.g., for Consumer Reports. If you're reviewing a movie, as I told you in my previous post, there are far too many subjective criteria to pretend to be objective. It's easier to be unbiased about video and audio quality, but even there, subjective criteria by definition enter into the review.

[FendersRule]

Originally Posted by Gremal

I find it hard to believe that you studied a scientific discipline because you are ultimately aiming to superimpose objective criteria on subjective realms.

Like it or not, reviews are based on personal beliefs as they apply to observations about the movie. There is no way to separate the two. What you expect from reviews reminds me of those who want to remove grain from film.

Maybe if you're reviewing a measurable product, e.g., for Consumer Reports. If you're reviewing a movie, as I told you in my previous post, there are far too many subjective criteria to pretend to be objective. It's easier to be unbiased about video and audio quality, but even there, subjective criteria by definition enter into the review.

This simply, is not correct. I will make sure to avoid your movies if you are rating them on personal beliefs. You need to read up on more reviews. Find me a review that contains merit, in which the reviewer said "I really dislike that Angelina was wearing a blue skirt". Find me a reviewer in a game that states "This game does not agree with my religion". You will not find anything of a sort, because reviews are based on cohesive statements, and not on personal opinions.

For you to state that movies are not a "measurable product", have you ever heard of plot, story, acting, theme, setting, length, elapsed time, special effects, cohesion? Yes, I know that these are unbounded entities, but they are still measured by reviewers. The problem becomes when you make a STATEMENT, it must be a statement of fact that contains some merit.

You seem to not understand that I am mentioning two constructs. Statement, and Opinion. Opinions are not up for criticism. Statements are. If you make a statement in reality that is completely false with the general public's beliefs, norms, expectation, then your statement contains no merit. Think about it, why are there reviews in the first place? You don't go read a review to see someone's "opinion" on something. You go to read a review about that lists commonalities and objective statements in something.

Do you see something wrong here?:

"That Godfather is not a good movie"

[ObiTrentKenobi]

I liked all 3, it completes the story of the first installment. Sure, they get a little cheasier dialogue and the worst "celebration" scene in the history of cinema (the @rgy in the underworld), worst thing about all 3 movies...


anyway


I have the 10-disc SDVD box set, and dont' see a reason to get the Bluray version of it, as it looks awesome upconverted on my bluray player.

[Gremal]

For you to state that movies are not a "measurable product",

Please don't take my words out of context. I used measurable product in the context of reviews in Consumer Reports. Last time I checked, Consumer Reports does not rate movies. Nor does any other periodical that claims to be unbiased or objective.

You seem to not understand that I am mentioning two constructs. Statement, and Opinion. Opinions are not up for criticism. Statements are.

Well, evidently you need to reevaluate your understanding of those terms because when you state your opinion, that is called a statement. It's just not a statement of fact.

If you make a statement in reality that is completely false with the general public's beliefs, norms, expectation, then your statement contains no merit.

Then we may as well stop having thoughts as individuals and go with the most popular opinion.

Think about it, why are there reviews in the first place? You don't go read a review to see someone's "opinion" on something.

If the person is articulate and has the tools to make an informed opinion, you do.

You go to read a review about that lists commonalities and objective statements in something.

No, that's why you read news articles. You read movie reviews to find others' impressions of a movie.

[neos_peace]

Ok I just read through al the replies. And I must state a fact here. Yes it's a fact becasue it can be looked up. First off the matrix was designed to be a trilogy from the very first get-go. In 2000 when the matrix won a awrds for best picture, best screen play, best actor, and best soemthing else. Joel silver who was the producer for it said and I qoute "All we can say is if you loved the first just wait for the sequals."

It's also a known fact that when they were done wiht the final touchs on the first film they were already done wiht the 2nd script and started on the 3rd one. The reason it took so long for the 2 and 3rd films to come out was becasue they literally had to scrap all the footage they had done, becasue of the death of (sorry if its spelled wrong) Ahylia, the freakin black singer who was the head vampire in queen of the damned. and Gloria foster (the Oracle) When thjat happened they had to scrap all the footage and try to start over. Thats why they artated to film them at the same time.

As far as the content. The wach. idea was exaclty what they portayed, this too can be loked up and confirmed. 1st movie was intro of characters and neo becoming the one. 2nd was him learning his role, and identifing what was realy going on. 3rd was him fullfilling his role, and the mass war.

So with that all said it's not that they didn't know what to put in them it's that people expected to much if they found them dull or whatever. Oh by the way their not sequals. The trilogy is actually one whole big movie. The Wach bro's said that them selves. Seriuously if you don't belive me look it up you will find what I have said is true.

I know more about these movies then most people do. I can qoute the first one almost word for word, and have a massive collection. Anyway thats just me gloting.

[J6P]

Originally Posted by FendersRule

You don't go read a review to see someone's "opinion" on something. You go to read a review about that lists commonalities and objective statements in something.

Your concept of what a movie review is for is baffling to me. It is absolutely about opinion. It couldn't be any more about opinion. They are 'opinion pieces'.

You can't tot up the pro and con reviews of a particular movie and determine whether it is good or bad. If that's how you've been approaching film criticism you're letting yourself down.

The proper way to utilize film criticism is not 'checking the numbers' at Meta-critic or Rotten Tomatoes, in fact I'd say those aggregate sites are killing the art of film criticism as we know it. You can't simply extract a number and determine whether the work at question will be enjoyable to you. That's why we see so many people around this site and others saying "I never listen to the critics" or "they're always wrong" like they are some sort of rock & roll badass.

The proper way to utilize film criticism is to read a wide gamut of reviews from a single critic at a time, and be aware of where your opinion and his opinion align and diverge. You develop a track record. There is a reviewer on this site that has strong political leanings counter to mine, and lets them surface in his reviews. When he criticizes a film through that lens, I know to throw the comment out. I do, however, agree with him on many other points. I can read his reviews intelligently and in context.

When criticism ceases to be subjective, it is no longer criticism. Maybe you could call it a plot synopsis with tech specs at that point, I don't know. But it wouldn't be criticism.

As for The Matrix trilogy, I loved the first and didn't like the following two. Not because of story so much as style. The first one was incredibly stylish -- I'm thinking of shots like the high camera pointing down over a street lamp in the rain, shots like that were what I loved most about the first movie, and thought were lacking in the second two.

Just my subjective opinion.

[FendersRule]

Come on Gremal...stop fishing in new terms! "Informed Opinion" or "Impressions".

Just say "Statement" for crying out loud, you know you want too!

I agree that statements come from opinions. However, statements are always up for critique, and whiplashing.

In conclusion:

* We can measure the reliability of statements by what the entity of a population thinks. If these statements fall far from the line of common thinking, then these statements are incorrect, or invalid. "The Godfather is a Bad movie" is an invalid statement because it can be measured by accurate dependent measures (IMDB, etc). "There is no gravity on earth" is another invalid statement, because it can also be measured by accurate dependent measures (scale).

* In life, if everyone gave personal opinions, and not statements, then this world, and forum would be a boring place. Thankfully, people make incorrect statements, such as "The Matrix Trilogy is a bad trilogy", and this causes other people to come in an bash them , showing them that most people find it not to be, and that they should rephrase their opinion to make it an actual opinion, and not a "statement".

I always tell people that make incorrect statements: "Congratulations, you feel the same way that 10% of people do!". However, opinions are always justified.

[Gremal]

Well said J6P...although I think I know what reviewer you're referring to.

[neos_peace]

So basically this has turned into a what is an actual opinion, versus what is a true factual statment. Interisting. LOL

[Kynch]

Originally Posted by neos_peace

So basically this has turned into a what is an actual opinion, versus what is a true factual statment. Interisting. LOL

Show us pics of your collection, that'll keep our minds off the argument.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by neos_peace

So basically this has turned into a what is an actual opinion, versus what is a true factual statment. Interisting. LOL

Welcome to The Matrix

[Travis]

How long is a piece of string?

[sam89]

Originally Posted by tommyboy81

haven't looked at all the replies but I'll tell you why. Alot of people were expecting a more complex story like the first one. But alot of people also were at awe with the special effects. So they went more crazy with the effects. (to the point where it was to much for some. To much bullet time) And the story wasn't to there liking.(Not much time in the Matrix) That and the brothers were making stuff up because they had no idea the first one would be so big.

To me I like all three. They go in the order from when they came out.

The story in the sequels is far more complex than the story of the first film (which barely even has a story!).

[neos_peace]

Originally Posted by Kynch

Show us pics of your collection, that'll keep our minds off the argument.

Honestly, I don't even have pics of half the stuff I have I would need two full pages on this forum to put it up, don't think the mods would be happy wiht that. Can't list it either it would be to long.


OH wait that was meant as a joke ha ha ha the jokes on me.

[Kynch]

Originally Posted by neos_peace

Honestly, I don't even have pics of half the stuff I have I would need two full pages on this forum to put it up, don't think the mods would be happy wiht that. Can't list it either it would be to long.


OH wait that was meant as a joke ha ha ha the jokes on me.

Well I wouldn't mind seeing pictures of it. I love collections and stuff so yeah if ever you put pics somewhere let us know.

[doctorsteve]

Alright, I haven't seen too many others address actual, real reasons why people say the last two were bad.

I'm a huge fan of the last two, but I understand that many are not. I still staunchly defend Reload and Rev.

Matrix: Cool new visuals and techniques. Cool Kung Fu fight scenes. Keanu Reeves won over a lot of people. Smith is a cool new Bad Guy.

Reload and Revolutions: *Sigh* where to begin. How the Matrix works was explored more in depth. The truth of it's history was slowly revealed. What is the One? What is it's purpose? How does he go about fulfilling his purpose?

Generally speaking, the public didn't care about most of the above, They wanted more of the same of what they got from the Matrix.

The technological understanding (and the ability to draw parallels to the technology we use every day) was difficult for many. The philosophy inherent to (and the importance of) control, choice, freewill, and the Messiah figure go FAR beyond what the masses want to get out of a movie. They really just want to be entertained, they don't go to the movies to think.

If you consider the popularity of 'twist' movies, they are usually stories that (for only 1 to 3 brief moments) actually make the viewers think... to sort things out, and they are surprised at their own ability to put the pieces together and they like the movie because it makes them feel better about themselves because they figured it out. The people that hate 'twist' movies are the ones that "don't get it" (or, could see it coming a mile away).

The matrix has so many intertwining pieces to truly "get" the movie (and the underlying philosophy that was at the heart of the heroes struggle of the movie) you really have to dissect it and understand the pieces. To understand how and why Neo had the abilities he did, you have to have some familiarity with they way some technologies work. You also have to have some intrest in the conflicted philosophies and spiritual awakenings that Neo encounters as he becomes more aware or 'enlightened'. Much of "joe six-pack" (j6p) America doesn't care about it or understand it and so much of what was at the core of what Reload and Rev had to deal with was completely foreign and uninteresting to many viewers.

What was left? Cool effects, car crashes, and Kung Fu with the occasional 'bullet time' thrown in. Unfortunately, if you look at the story that's left after you mentally block out all the stuff j6p wasn't interested in, the quality and coherency of the movie drops for most of the viewing public.

I think the lack of understanding tied to these films comes up right at the end when

[Show spoiler] Sati asks if We'll see Neo again someday, the Oracle tells her yes, and people started talking about the Matrix 4. They didn't get it. They STILL missed the purpose of the One in the functioning of the Matrix and therefore fully expect Keanau Reeves to show up again.

The story ends EXACTLY the way it's supposed to, and yet sequel talk seemed to be around watercoolers everywhere.

That's about the shortest explanation I can come up with.

Cheers, Doc

[Barbie-Shrimp]

Originally Posted by doctorsteve

...goes FAR beyond what the masses want to get out of a movie. They really just want to be entertained, they don't go too the movies to think.

I think calling the Matrix trilogy a movie that makes you think is giving it too much credit. The whole thing had "this would be cool in a movie" written all over it. There's very little to make you think throughout. The dialogue was written by grown men who never grew out of their nerdy high schooler phase, and it was clear that they had these ideas that they "just thought would be cool in a movie". Don't get me wrong, I like the Matrix trilogy as a whole, and, unlike most people, I actually like the 2nd one the best. Watching these three movies again after so many years made me realize that the 1st one is overrated, the 2nd is underrated, and the 3rd is usually rated as well as it should be whether you hated it or loved it.

[doctorsteve]

Originally Posted by Barbie-Shrimp

I think calling the Matrix trilogy a movie that makes you think is giving it too much credit.

I'm not saying 'a movie that makes you go Hmmmm'. I mean a movie that forces you to use your noggin to understand and juggle MANY things at the same time, and be able to process it all.

Took me about 3 viewings of Reloaded and Rev to really get what the Wachowskis were going for and truly appreciate what they were doing with the character of Neo.

[Barbie-Shrimp]

Originally Posted by doctorsteve

I'm not saying 'a movie that makes you go Hmmmm'. I mean a movie that forces you to use your nogging to understand and juggle MANY things at the same time, and be able to process it all.

Well, I don't have a nogging. So, maybe I didn't get it.