PiP discussion

[DaViD Boulet]

While some posters may be tired of the conversation about PIP and other BD-J spec functionality, it's important to realize that these early days of BD-J specs are absolutely critical. MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than asking Paidgeek if your favorite movie title will be coming out in the next few months on Blu-ray.

We've got a whole format-life-cycle to get all our titles on BD. But we only have a short window to make sure that the format specs get established the way that they should to ensure a strong future for their use on Blu-ray Disc.

Let's not get short sighted and quit asking the important questions now while we have the opportuntity to make a difference.

[MatrixS2000]

^ I agree, but the only way I feel PiP has any importance is how it relates to possible 3D video as being discussed in your other thread, which I have been following, enjoying and hoping comes to fruition in the future.

PiP for talking head commentary or to deliver "how the scene was shot" type of functionality has no value to me.

[DaViD Boulet]

There are other use cases for full 1080p PIP besides 3-D. Ala a "work print" that runs simultaneously with the feature film: you could choose to just watch the movie, or watch the movie with the work-print in PIP mode, or then "swap" the windows so now you have the work print in full 1080p with the feature-film mimimized, or then turn off the PIP window with the feature film and just watch the work print in full 1080... and then change your mind again... all during uninterrupted disc play with your 24-bit lossless soundtrack.

[MatrixS2000]

Yup - many more too, I just don't see them as something I would use (I also understand that that is my opinion and others may see more value in those type of functions.).

I would hope that anything delivered on a BD is HD. I understand that the spec says that HD is optional, but it is kind of self defeating is the extras are SD imo....

[WriteSimply]

josh, bear with me.

I agree with Chris and David. While the spec may be closed, the BDA's CEs and studios could be smart enough to understand the oversight and ratify a Profile 1.11 while making sure that all Profile 1.1 players are compliant with the draft version of 1.11.

Case in point for a future BD release: Beowulf as the primary stream and the performance capture on PiP. Or the second Beowulf disc, for 3D playback.


fuad

[CptGreedle]

It would be cool to see animations with their storyboards in PiP, or perhaps a PiP of certain live performances or events where you can switch to a different view. I would also like to see a PiP that shows fun facts and trivia.
But beyond that, I was PiP would be available for BD already. I know HD-DVD has it, but I have not seen it myself.

[WickyWoo]

Case in point for a future BD release: Beowulf as the primary stream and the performance capture on PiP. Or the second Beowulf disc, for 3D playback.

Any 3-D discs of major studio titles are at least 5 years away. The penetration simply isn't there, and won't be until at least that time

It would be cool to see animations with their storyboards in PiP, or perhaps a PiP of certain live performances or events where you can switch to a different view. I would also like to see a PiP that shows fun facts and trivia.

Why put a trivia track in PiP when subs will do? Unlike DVD, the subtitle spec on BR is very robust.

[desmond]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

There are other use cases for full 1080p PIP besides 3-D. Ala a "work print" that runs simultaneously with the feature film: you could choose to just watch the movie, or watch the movie with the work-print in PIP mode, or then "swap" the windows so now you have the work print in full 1080p with the feature-film mimimized, or then turn off the PIP window with the feature film and just watch the work print in full 1080... and then change your mind again... all during uninterrupted disc play with your 24-bit lossless soundtrack.

sounds nice in theory but BD has a limit of 40Mbps for video and another 8 for audio hence having two hd video streams is not really possible without severely limiting the primary stream (movie).

[CptGreedle]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Any 3-D discs of major studio titles are at least 5 years away. The penetration simply isn't there, and won't be until at least that time



Why put a trivia track in PiP when subs will do? Unlike DVD, the subtitle spec on BR is very robust.

Simple, a PiP would have the trivia in a video form, almost like a pop-up. Show you something rather than just tell you.
Granted a subtitle would probably also work in most cases. I was just trying to think of possible uses of PiP since I am not really that into it. I have never had PiP on anything so I don't see it's uses except to watch 2 channels at once on cable.

[WickyWoo]

You can still do that with a sub track. Remember the animated BTTF and Spidey subs?, and the MST3K track on MIB and Ghostbusters? The Blu-Ray sub spec lets you do that at basically full framerate(think like Flash video)

[CptGreedle]

0_o What am I missing? I didn't know about that! Are those BD or DVD?

[WickyWoo]

Are which DVD or BD? BTTF, Spidey etc? All that was on DVD

Their parent company, Genius Products LLC, is neutral,

Genius is their video distributor, not their parent company. Genius has no say in what Weinstein does or doesn't do

[Anthony P]

I can only think of a heandfull of interesting PiPs and even then I am not sure (after trying it out I could find it annoying)

1) 3D - as discussed previously, the reality is that this would not be PiP, but falls in a simillar category - needs HD secondary video

2) dual shots - imagine for example a movie taped from two perspectives, the murderer and the cop. You can watch it through the murderers eyes as a horror or the cops eyes as a mystery or flip back and forth where more interesting stuff happens -needs HDSV

3) diary - thought of this while discussing interactive features a long time ago, imagine watching scooby doo you can choose to watch in the PiP Scooby & Shaggy or Daphne or Fred or Velma who give their events of what is happening as well as being narators to the games -does not need HDSV only useful as PiP

4) dual movies- imagine getting Star Wars: A New Hope where you have the original and the spruced up version you PiP any of them or watch any of them in the main screen. In one Han Solo shouts first in the other he doies not. needs HDSV but could just be switching

The way I see it anything that would be interesting and require HD PiP would be just as interesting without it. 1 needs simultenious Decoding but also needs a new player and profile, 2&4 could be better with PiP but it does not need to be PiP (or PoP) just two simultenious HD video streams. Someone that buys a title that can't handl HD PiP will just be able to switch. 3 needs PiP but not HD

[Anthony P]

sounds nice in theory but BD has a limit of 40Mbps for video and another 8 for audio hence having two hd video streams is not really possible without severely limiting the primary stream (movie).

not really

1) the two videos would need to be very similar (i.e. maxing out at the same time) at one instance it could be 30:10 and the next 30:10 in the opposite direction

2) assuming it is peaking at the same times (something that would happen in dual movie above) that still leaves 20mbps, like I told Amir a long time ago. A movie with 6mbps audio(two DD+ and one DTHD) + 4mbps PiP leaves only 20mbps for the main video, on a BD you could have an HD PiP better audio and an HD PiP

[jorg]

Originally Posted by desmond

sounds nice in theory but BD has a limit of 40Mbps for video and another 8 for audio hence having two hd video streams is not really possible without severely limiting the primary stream (movie).

what about primarly 1080p and the pip 720?

if im correct 1080p is around twice the bandwith as 720p
and with the pip 720p maybe only have 3 streams of audio (two speakers and a sub) and the full 1080p have 5 streams

[hyperdine]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

While some posters may be tired of the conversation about PIP and other BD-J spec functionality, it's important to realize that these early days of BD-J specs are absolutely critical. MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than asking Paidgeek if your favorite movie title will be coming out in the next few months on Blu-ray.

Well, I'm not sure that I agree with this. At this early stage of the game, I think title selection is a much bigger driver of adoption than optional special features such as PiP. Releasing a title like Close Encounters of the Third Kind makes a much bigger difference in the marketplace right now than whether or not a title has HD or SD PiP, don't you think?

Granted, features like PiP can help differentiate Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) from it's lowlier cousin, DVD, but I think the primary concern is really content right now. It's not that these have to be mutually exclusive of one another, because they can certainly go hand-in-hand, but in terms of priorities I'm O.K. with it being much lower on the list. It's a "nice to have" but not a "must have" for me, personally.

I'm glad this thread was started though, because I think it's definitely worth some discussion!

[Anthony P]

if im correct 1080p is around twice the bandwith as 720p

the bandwidth tends to be too variable. For example someone mentioned the story board in the PiP. Assuming they are BW outlines, then even if it is 1080p the BW would be considerably smaller then the feature (i.e. you could do a 30/10 split and both would look good).

Also if the PiP is a PiP then there is no use making it any bigger (resolution)then what you want for the PiP

[Anthony P]

Well, I'm not sure that I agree with this. At this early stage of the game, I think title selection is a much bigger driver of adoption than optional special features such as PiP. Releasing a title like Close Encounters of the Third Kind makes a much bigger difference in the marketplace right now than whether or not a title has HD or SD PiP, don't you think?

I think what he is thinking is that if players go Low Definition PiP then studios will be more reluctant to go HD PiP(even when needed) and is studios go LD PiP then manufacturers will be more reluctant to add HD PiP decoding.

My issue is that I don't want BW or Capacity wasted on PiP (it needs a lot of both and will bring nothing in most cases). So if a studio does add a director's commentary PiP I would rather it be at 1/3 (360p) to 1/6 (180p) or 1/8 (135p) the resolution depending on what size they want the PiP window. No use scaling just to take up space on the disk. On the other hand I think there could be some instances when having a second 1080p stream is important.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

While some posters may be tired of the conversation about PIP and other BD-J spec functionality, it's important to realize that these early days of BD-J specs are absolutely critical. MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than asking Paidgeek if your favorite movie title will be coming out in the next few months on Blu-ray.

We've got a whole format-life-cycle to get all our titles on BD. But we only have a short window to make sure that the format specs get established the way that they should to ensure a strong future for their use on Blu-ray Disc.

Let's not get short sighted and quit asking the important questions now while we have the opportuntity to make a difference.

I agree. And this seems to be the only place we can raise and discuss these issues without being descended upon by meaningless "HD DVD rulz!" crapola. And, people can be feel free to ignore the discussion if they don't care. I very much doubt a single title will be delayed because of this subject.

If I understand correctly, Profile 1.1 requires players to support decoding and PiP for SD secondary, but only optionally for HD secondary.

Does Profile 1.1 require the secondary to be able to be played separately? If so, then no content is ever lost if a player doesn't support decode and scaling to PiP for HD content.

And as has been suggested before, Sony can encourage HD PiP support by releasing some (not every) title with HD PiP. Put it out there (like Fox and DTS-HD MA) and hopefully things will work their way toward support.

Gary

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Also if the PiP is a PiP then there is no use making it any bigger (resolution)then what you want for the PiP

Flip it around. Make the secondary full screen and the primary the PiP. If the content is compelling enough wanting both HD becomes apparent.

Also, as has been suggested, it need not be 1080p. Perhaps for now some 720p secondary is sufficient. Still HD, but not a bandwidth hog.

As time goes on the encoders will get more advanced and efficient, and the peaks necessary will come down allowing more and more to become possible.

Gary