Are all Watts the Same ??? :) - Blu-ray Forum

kevinokev · 01-12-2009, 08:46 PM

I am in the market for a new receiver and was wondering if different brands (Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer) vary from each other watt for watt. Is my 100 watt Kenwood receiver the same as 100 watts being put out by an Onkyo or Denon ??

Just curious as I'd like to have the same amount of power going to my speakers that I currently have...

Your thoughts???

Mr. HiDef · 01-12-2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinokev

I am in the market for a new receiver and was wondering if different brands (Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer) vary from each other watt for watt. Is my 100 watt Kenwood receiver the same as 100 watts being put out by an Onkyo SR706 or Denon AVR-2309CI the same??

Just curious as I'd like to have the same amount of power going to my speakers that I currently have...

Your thoughts???

Well why not get something that can give you more power if your upgrading your AVR?

Audiophile_At_Birth · 01-12-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinokev

I am in the market for a new receiver and was wondering if different brands (Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer) vary from each other watt for watt. Is my 100 watt Kenwood receiver the same as 100 watts being put out by an Onkyo SR706 or Denon AVR-2309CI the same??

Just curious as I'd like to have the same amount of power going to my speakers that I currently have...

Your thoughts???

Second this question, as my Kenwood Reciever is a piece of.......

Sammy · 01-12-2009, 09:36 PM

NO.

You need to look at the watts at the same percentage THD (total hermonic distortion). Also you need to look at the ohms resistance of your current speakers and make sure that the new receiver is going to match up or you will have less sound output or worse yet you will fry your new receiver.

kevinokev · 01-13-2009, 01:09 AM

Can you clairfy further please ?

Driver_King · 01-13-2009, 02:09 AM

Here's an extremely complicated technical explanation for you.

That is my cousin's website.

kevinokev · 01-13-2009, 01:06 PM

Would 100 watts of Kenwood power be equal to (of the same quality) of 100 watts of Denon power?

ie - 100 watts of Fosgate power is equal to 400 watts of California Profile power. As the Fosgate is a higher quality amplifier.

I would like to get a new receiver with the same amount of power that I currently have, but I can only seem to afford a Denon amp that outputs 90 watts per channel.

naturephoto1 · 01-13-2009, 01:14 PM

100 Watts RMS is 100 Watts RMS. Part of the question comes down to how conservative the design and the maker is for their claimed output. There will also be some variability too from item to item. I have owned in the past products including an Accuphase E-202 which at the time in the early to mid 1970s was the best integrated amp probably made at its time. The unit was to put out 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms at clipping. As I recall when we bench tested the unit, it was outputting something on the order of 130 watts into 8 ohms at clipping. The unit was also supposed to output 140 watts into 4 ohms. As I recall the bench test indicated about 196 watts into 4 ohms at clipping.

Rich

SQBubble · 01-13-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinokev

I don't need a wiseguy. I was looking for an answer to my question.

Would 100 watts of Kenwood power be equal to (of the same quality) of 100 watts of Denon power?

ie - 100 watts of Fosgate power is equal to 400 watts of California Profile power. As the Fosgate is a higher quality amplifier.

I would like to get a new receiver with the same amount of power that I currently have, but I can only seem to afford a Denon amp that outputs 90 watts per channel.

No, they are not the exact same, but could be very similar, sometimes... honestly you have to listen for yourself, each brand have their way of claiming their product.... But anyways... rms isnt all that matters, the construction and quality of an amplifier will affect the efficiency and power, you can listen to a 50rms rated amplifier that sounds like a 150rms, as much as you can listen to a 150rms rated amplifier that sounds weak...

Do some research of the amplifier your looking at, see if it has good reputation, good reviews, or some places you can buy the product, try it at home, and if you dont see an upgrade, then you can simply return it ...

hope that helped...

kevinokev · 01-13-2009, 01:52 PM

Thank you for the last two posts. I suppose I'll either go with a 90 watt Denon (AVR-1909) or the 100 watt Onkyo (TX-SR706 - and hope that I don't have that blue dot issue).

Any input on those two ?

JJ · 01-13-2009, 02:47 PM

Increases of 10 watts are so negligible as far as increase in dBs are concerned that anywhere from 90-140 will suit your purposes fine.

Clipping and dropoff are important as well - there are some receivers out there that promise, say, 110w per channel but when you actually use all 7 channels the power drops per channel.

Total Harmonic Distortion is important as well, although anything under 0.1% is alright, too.

In all honesty, you should be fine with what you pick, although I would say go with the Denon over the Onkyo, and since I'm a fan of Pioneer and Yamaha, I would suggest looking at the VSX-1018, VSX-01 or the RX-v663 or v863.

KCLARK · 01-13-2009, 02:56 PM

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/109138.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

http://www.listenup.com/Denon+AVR-19...9-p-49908.html

Big Daddy · 01-13-2009, 02:59 PM

A Brief Introduction To Amplifiers
An amplifier’s main purpose is to take a weak signal and make it strong enough to drive a speaker. Amplifiers get the necessary energy for amplification of input signals from the AC wall outlet.

If you had a perfect amplifier, all of the energy the amplifier took from the AC outlet would be converted to useful output to the speakers. However, no amplifier/receiver is 100% efficient, so some of the energy from the wall outlet is wasted in the form of heat.

Amplifier/receivers need power supplies to convert the AC power from the wall to DC voltage. This conversion from AC to DC is necessary because the semiconductor devices used inside the electronic equipment require DC voltage. Many different types of power supplies are used in amplifiers. High quality amplifiers have totally independent power supplies, one for each channel.

Amplifiers are generally rated in watts per channel, at different impedances over a frequency range of usually 20 Hz - 20,000 Hz, at some amount of total harmonic distortion.

Harmonic distortion increases with power output. Considerably more power can be delivered if distortion is allowed to increase.

Lower quality receivers/amplifiers sometimes have impressive power ratings like 1,000 watts total output. However, the fine print also states that this power output is with 10% total harmonic distortion, and usually over a limited frequency range like 40-18,000Hz.

It is important to know that power can not be amplified. Voltage and current can be amplified. The term "power amplifier" is technically incorrect.

Conclusions
When buying an amplifier/receiver, it is important to look at the following factors:

Distortion: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IMD), lower numbers are better.
Signal-To-Noise (S/N) Ratio: The higher number is better.
Continuous Power: Just because the receiver may be listed as being able to output 100WPC, doesn't mean it can do so for any significant length of time. Always make sure the watt per channel is in RMS terms. Even RMS power is technically incorrect. RMS voltage is normally measured.
Dynamic Headroom: The ability of ther receiver to output power at a significantly higher level for short period of time to accommodate musical peaks or extreme sound effects in movies. Dynamic Headroom is measured in Decibels. If a receiver/amplifier has the ability to double its power output for a brief period, it would have a Dynamic Headroom of 3db.
Impedance Rating: Almost all receivers can handle 8 ohm speakers. Some can handle 6 ohm speakers. Almost none of them can handle 4 ohm speakers. Using a receiver on a low impedance speaker will result in overheating and possible damage to the receiver and/or the speaker.
Other Options: You should look at the other options that the receiver offers, such as the number of HDMI input/outputs, the kind of video processing, DSP modes, etc.

SQBubble · 01-13-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

A Brief Introduction To Amplifiers
An amplifier’s main purpose is to take a weak signal and make it strong enough to drive a speaker. Amplifiers get the necessary energy for amplification of input signals from the AC wall outlet.

If you had a perfect amplifier, all of the energy the amplifier took from the AC outlet would be converted to useful output to the speakers. However, no amplifier/receiver is 100% efficient, so some of the energy from the wall outlet is wasted in the form of heat.

Amplifier/receivers need power supplies to convert the AC power from the wall to DC voltage. This conversion from AC to DC is necessary because the semiconductor devices used inside the electronic equipment require DC voltage. Many different types of power supplies are used in amplifiers. High quality amplifiers have totally independent power supplies, one for each channel.

Amplifiers are generally rated in watts per channel, at different impedances over a frequency range of usually 20 Hz - 20,000 Hz, at some amount of total harmonic distortion.

Harmonic distortion increases with power output. Considerably more power can be delivered if distortion is allowed to increase.

Lower quality receivers/amplifiers sometimes have impressive power ratings like 1,000 watts total output. However, the fine print also states that this power output is with 10% total harmonic distortion, and usually over a limited frequency range like 40-18,000Hz.

It is important to know that power can not be amplified. Voltage and current can be amplified. The term "power amplifier" is technically incorrect.

Conclusions
When buying an amplifier/receiver, it is important to look at the following factors:

Distortion: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IMD), lower numbers are better.
Signal-To-Noise (S/N) Ratio: The lower number is better.
Continuous Power: Just because the receiver may be listed as being able to output 100WPC, doesn't mean it can do so for any significant length of time. Always make sure the watt per channel is in RMS terms. Even RMS power is technically incorrect. RMS voltage is normally measured.
Dynamic Headroom: The ability of ther receiver to output power at a significantly higher level for short period of time to accommodate musical peaks or extreme sound effects in movies. Dynamic Headroom is measured in Decibels. If a receiver/amplifier has the ability to double its power output for a brief period, it would have a Dynamic Headroom of 3db.
Impedance Rating: Almost all receivers can handle 8 ohm speakers. Some can handle 6 ohm speakers. Almost none of them can handle 4 ohm speakers. Using a receiver on a low impedance speaker will result in overheating and possible damage to the receiver and/or the speaker.
Other Options: You should look at the other options that the receiver offers, such as the number of HDMI input/outputs, the kind of video processing, DSP modes, etc.

I'm with you on everything but... about the S/N ratio, the higher the number = the better it is, generally, but shouldnt be too concerned about this fact.

this is a good site that explains it well...:

http://www.bcae1.com/sig2nois.htm

Lucy Diamond · 01-13-2009, 04:06 PM

I'm not sure if the same technology is used in Home audio as in Guitar equipment.

From my experience, a 100watt tube amp will completely crush a 300 watt solid state amp. A 100watt amp head is not perceivably twice as loud as a 50watt amp head and a 15watt class A tube combo amp will make you die in a small room if you crank it.

The principals should be the same though.

mdabb · 01-13-2009, 04:49 PM

I would rather have 50 watts of clean power than 100 watts of noise. Unless you plan to listen to only certain frequencies I wouldn't worry about it so much. Now we want enough power but at what cost ??? Buy a receiver based on sound quality alone because after all you want it to sound good, no ???

Driver_King · 01-13-2009, 06:00 PM

Yeah, a watt is a watt but the quality of that what is what makes it different.

Here is your answer: No.

BluLobsta · 01-13-2009, 06:20 PM

Yes, but I prefer to multiply the square of the current by the impedance of the speakers

Just kidding...

Johnny Vinyl · 01-13-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluLobsta

Yes, but I prefer to multiply the square of the current by the impedance of the speakers

Just kidding...

I forgot to do that when considering my Yammy...damn!

BluLobsta · 01-13-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John72953

I forgot to do that when considering my Yammy...damn!

LOL, yes that's how I burned my poor little fingies

01-12-2009, 08:46 PM	#1
kevinokev Active Member Top contributor Member since:Apr 2008 Location:US - PA Home Theater Gallery:28 4K collection:1 Blu-ray collection:140 Blu-ray reviews: 2	Are all Watts the Same ??? :) I am in the market for a new receiver and was wondering if different brands (Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer) vary from each other watt for watt. Is my 100 watt Kenwood receiver the same as 100 watts being put out by an Onkyo or Denon ?? Just curious as I'd like to have the same amount of power going to my speakers that I currently have... Your thoughts??? Last edited by kevinokev; 01-13-2009 at 01:08 PM.

01-13-2009, 01:06 PM	#7
kevinokev Active Member Top contributor Member since:Apr 2008 Location:US - PA Home Theater Gallery:28 4K collection:1 Blu-ray collection:140 Blu-ray reviews: 2	Would 100 watts of Kenwood power be equal to (of the same quality) of 100 watts of Denon power? ie - 100 watts of Fosgate power is equal to 400 watts of California Profile power. As the Fosgate is a higher quality amplifier. I would like to get a new receiver with the same amount of power that I currently have, but I can only seem to afford a Denon amp that outputs 90 watts per channel. Last edited by kevinokev; 01-15-2009 at 02:38 PM.

01-13-2009, 01:14 PM	#8
naturephoto1 Blu-ray Ninja Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Oct 2008 Location:Breinigsville, PA Home Theater Gallery:260 4K collection:21 Blu-ray collection:263	100 Watts RMS is 100 Watts RMS. Part of the question comes down to how conservative the design and the maker is for their claimed output. There will also be some variability too from item to item. I have owned in the past products including an Accuphase E-202 which at the time in the early to mid 1970s was the best integrated amp probably made at its time. The unit was to put out 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms at clipping. As I recall when we bench tested the unit, it was outputting something on the order of 130 watts into 8 ohms at clipping. The unit was also supposed to output 140 watts into 4 ohms. As I recall the bench test indicated about 196 watts into 4 ohms at clipping. Rich Last edited by naturephoto1; 01-13-2009 at 01:53 PM.

01-13-2009, 02:59 PM	#13
Big Daddy Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Southern California Home Theater Gallery:79 Blu-ray collection:122 Trading Score:1	A Brief Introduction To Amplifiers An amplifier’s main purpose is to take a weak signal and make it strong enough to drive a speaker. Amplifiers get the necessary energy for amplification of input signals from the AC wall outlet. If you had a perfect amplifier, all of the energy the amplifier took from the AC outlet would be converted to useful output to the speakers. However, no amplifier/receiver is 100% efficient, so some of the energy from the wall outlet is wasted in the form of heat. Amplifier/receivers need power supplies to convert the AC power from the wall to DC voltage. This conversion from AC to DC is necessary because the semiconductor devices used inside the electronic equipment require DC voltage. Many different types of power supplies are used in amplifiers. High quality amplifiers have totally independent power supplies, one for each channel. Amplifiers are generally rated in watts per channel, at different impedances over a frequency range of usually 20 Hz - 20,000 Hz, at some amount of total harmonic distortion. Harmonic distortion increases with power output. Considerably more power can be delivered if distortion is allowed to increase. Lower quality receivers/amplifiers sometimes have impressive power ratings like 1,000 watts total output. However, the fine print also states that this power output is with 10% total harmonic distortion, and usually over a limited frequency range like 40-18,000Hz. It is important to know that power can not be amplified. Voltage and current can be amplified. The term "power amplifier" is technically incorrect. Conclusions When buying an amplifier/receiver, it is important to look at the following factors: Distortion: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IMD), lower numbers are better. Signal-To-Noise (S/N) Ratio: The higher number is better. Continuous Power: Just because the receiver may be listed as being able to output 100WPC, doesn't mean it can do so for any significant length of time. Always make sure the watt per channel is in RMS terms. Even RMS power is technically incorrect. RMS voltage is normally measured. Dynamic Headroom: The ability of ther receiver to output power at a significantly higher level for short period of time to accommodate musical peaks or extreme sound effects in movies. Dynamic Headroom is measured in Decibels. If a receiver/amplifier has the ability to double its power output for a brief period, it would have a Dynamic Headroom of 3db. Impedance Rating: Almost all receivers can handle 8 ohm speakers. Some can handle 6 ohm speakers. Almost none of them can handle 4 ohm speakers. Using a receiver on a low impedance speaker will result in overheating and possible damage to the receiver and/or the speaker. Other Options: You should look at the other options that the receiver offers, such as the number of HDMI input/outputs, the kind of video processing, DSP modes, etc. Last edited by Big Daddy; 01-13-2009 at 10:46 PM.

01-13-2009, 06:20 PM	#18
BluLobsta Blu-ray Guru Member since:Dec 2008 Location:Rhode Island Home Theater Gallery:86 4K collection:81 Blu-ray collection:420 DVD collection:1 Blu-ray reviews:2	Yes, but I prefer to multiply the square of the current by the impedance of the speakers Just kidding... Last edited by BluLobsta; 01-13-2009 at 06:23 PM.

01-12-2009, 09:36 PM	#4
Sammy Power Member Member since:Jan 2009 Location:Right next to Wineville, CA Home Theater Gallery:1 Blu-ray collection:199 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:3	NO. You need to look at the watts at the same percentage THD (total hermonic distortion). Also you need to look at the ohms resistance of your current speakers and make sure that the new receiver is going to match up or you will have less sound output or worse yet you will fry your new receiver.

01-13-2009, 01:09 AM	#5
kevinokev Active Member Top contributor Member since:Apr 2008 Location:US - PA Home Theater Gallery:28 4K collection:1 Blu-ray collection:140 Blu-ray reviews: 2	Can you clairfy further please ?

01-13-2009, 02:09 AM	#6
Driver_King Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Tampa Bay, Florida Home Theater Gallery:96 Blu-ray collection:28 Trading Score:10	Here's an extremely complicated technical explanation for you. That is my cousin's website.

01-13-2009, 01:52 PM	#10
kevinokev Active Member Top contributor Member since:Apr 2008 Location:US - PA Home Theater Gallery:28 4K collection:1 Blu-ray collection:140 Blu-ray reviews: 2	Thank you for the last two posts. I suppose I'll either go with a 90 watt Denon (AVR-1909) or the 100 watt Onkyo (TX-SR706 - and hope that I don't have that blue dot issue). Any input on those two ?

01-13-2009, 02:47 PM	#11
JJ Blu-ray Count Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Miami, FL Home Theater Gallery:99 4K collection:619 Blu-ray collection:1293 DVD collection:31 Digital collection:5 Blu-ray reviews: 18 Trading Score:203	Increases of 10 watts are so negligible as far as increase in dBs are concerned that anywhere from 90-140 will suit your purposes fine. Clipping and dropoff are important as well - there are some receivers out there that promise, say, 110w per channel but when you actually use all 7 channels the power drops per channel. Total Harmonic Distortion is important as well, although anything under 0.1% is alright, too. In all honesty, you should be fine with what you pick, although I would say go with the Denon over the Onkyo, and since I'm a fan of Pioneer and Yamaha, I would suggest looking at the VSX-1018, VSX-01 or the RX-v663 or v863.

01-13-2009, 02:56 PM	#12
KCLARK Member Member since:Jun 2008	http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/109138.html http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html http://www.listenup.com/Denon+AVR-19...9-p-49908.html

01-13-2009, 04:06 PM	#15
Lucy Diamond Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Apr 2008 Location:The Tomb of Annihilation 4K collection:- Blu-ray collection:- DVD collection:- Digital collection:- Blu-ray reviews: 2 Trading Score:3	I'm not sure if the same technology is used in Home audio as in Guitar equipment. From my experience, a 100watt tube amp will completely crush a 300 watt solid state amp. A 100watt amp head is not perceivably twice as loud as a 50watt amp head and a 15watt class A tube combo amp will make you die in a small room if you crank it. The principals should be the same though.

01-13-2009, 04:49 PM	#16
mdabb Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Trading Score:1	I would rather have 50 watts of clean power than 100 watts of noise. Unless you plan to listen to only certain frequencies I wouldn't worry about it so much. Now we want enough power but at what cost ??? Buy a receiver based on sound quality alone because after all you want it to sound good, no ???

01-13-2009, 06:00 PM	#17
Driver_King Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Tampa Bay, Florida Home Theater Gallery:96 Blu-ray collection:28 Trading Score:10	Yeah, a watt is a watt but the quality of that what is what makes it different. Here is your answer: No.

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