Player decoding or Receiver decoding, that is the question

[axe79]

Thank you for the detailed info.

It is not just a question of increasing the bass by 10db to get a comparable sound. The tonal differences go right up through the spectrum with a better 3 dimensional sound bit streamed.

The Onkyo 875 just does a better job being fed Bit stream rather than LPMC.
Films are much more enjoyable, so who cares what the format is?

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by axe79

Thank you for the detailed info.

It is not just a question of increasing the bass by 10db to get a comparable sound. The tonal differences go right up through the spectrum with a better 3 dimensional sound bit streamed.

The Onkyo 875 just does a better job being fed Bit stream rather than LPMC.
Films are much more enjoyable, so who cares what the format is?

It's strange because lossless decoded to PCM should be treated nearly the same as bitstreamed data to your Onkyo 875. I say nearly because the major differences are the unzipping of the audio codec to PCM is done in the PS3 rather than in the Onkyo. In addition, there is a possibility of jitter due to the player's clock not being in synch with the AVR's clock (not an issue with bitstream).

I don't doubt what you are experiencing and by all means, continue bitstreaming to your AVR. Your post is just further proof that you don't really need to upgrade to a newer HDMI 1.3 decoding AVR/prepro since you'll get at least 90% of the benefits of lossless with legacy DD/DTS from BD movies using bitstream. Don't let any technarati tell you otherwise.

Edit: One last check. You have DRC (Dynamic Range Compression) turned off in the PS3, right? It may already be off by default in your Onkyo 875 AVR.

[axe79]

The Onkyo is a HDMI 1.3 decoding AV amp and you are correct in the settings on the PS3.
As you have gathered I am not a novice on High End audio and have over 25 years behind me on owning and modifing such equipment. (the Onkyo 875 'Full class A' AV amp has great unlocked potential) which is hampered by the interaction off its power supply (200w x 7) onto its pre amp circuitry. However run off a totally clean Mains transformes it with NO NOISE getting onto the signal path anymore. With music it is now a delight.

I have been puzzled on this as I do understand that I am getting an unexpected result!
I suspect that it due to the Burr Brown Dac in the 875 fed bitstream obtains a purer source signal (with excellent clock timing) dispite the lower bit rate which gives it a more complete audio performance.
After all what matters is what sound is coming out of the speakers and hitting ones ears, the rest is all humbug.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by axe79

The Onkyo is a HDMI 1.3 decoding AV amp and you are correct in the settings on the PS3.
As you have gathered I am not a novice on High End audio and have over 25 years behind me on owning and modifing such equipment. (the Onkyo 875 'Full class A' AV amp has great unlocked potential) which is hampered by the interaction off its power supply (200w x 7) onto its pre amp circuitry.

I have been puzzled on this as I do understand that I am getting an unexpected result!
I suspect that it due to the Burr Brown Dac in the 875 fed bitstream obtains a purer source signal (with excellent clock timing) dispite the lower bit rate which gives it a more complete audio performance.
After all what matters is what sound is coming out of the speakers and hitting ones ears, the rest is all humbug.

I'm going to experiment with my PS3 setup as well. I've always assumed LPCM from the PS3 would give me the best sound since it enables lossless audio to be decoded and heard. The AVR is a Pioneer Elite 84 that is HDMI 1.2. I can do the same experiment to my Toshiba HD-A3 HD-DVD player as well (at least for TrueHD/DD).

[axe79]

Also I do find it best to set the PS3 manually up to 720P as I do play games as well. I leave the rest of the boxes unticked.

This allows the Reon in the 875 to upscale to 1080P for the TV whilst giving the optimum setting to read the disc of games..

It does the job better. I use Belkin PureAV Silver HDMI cables throughout, Russ Andrews Classic powerkords, Kimber 4TC/ QED SA XT.

It will be interesting to hear of your findings.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by axe79

The Onkyo is a HDMI 1.3 decoding AV amp and you are correct in the settings on the PS3.
As you have gathered I am not a novice on High End audio and have over 25 years behind me on owning and modifing such equipment. (the Onkyo 875 'Full class A' AV amp has great unlocked potential) which is hampered by the interaction off its power supply (200w x 7) onto its pre amp circuitry. However run off a totally clean Mains transformes it with NO NOISE getting onto the signal path anymore. With music it is now a delight.

I have been puzzled on this as I do understand that I am getting an unexpected result!
I suspect that it due to the Burr Brown Dac in the 875 fed bitstream obtains a purer source signal (with excellent clock timing) dispite the lower bit rate which gives it a more complete audio performance.
After all what matters is what sound is coming out of the speakers and hitting ones ears, the rest is all humbug.

But the ps3 set to LPCM uses those also. bitstream or LPCM is not better than the other, i've said this a million times already but i think its a volume thing. the receivers default volume is set higher, thats what i think anyway. i've tested this a bunch of times with lossy audio bitstreamed and decoded in the ps3, some movies the AV sounds louder, and on others they both sound the same. i really dont think bitstream adds some magical formula to the sound.

[nismo604]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

BD,

Unless I've missed out something important, I think you'll see that I have proven the superiority of bitstreaming - with qualifications.

My position on bitstreaming has long been that the performance of amplifier decoding depends on the architecture and processes that the manufacturer has chosen to implement. This infomation has not been available, but now I think its clear how Onkyo/Integra have done it. Its also become apparent that it also depends on the performance of the player. I hadn't considered this before, but in hindsight it seems obvious.

Specifically I believe I have shown that bitstreaming is better with the BH200, BDP1200 and 3800BD players and Onkyo SC886 (and presumably the integrated amplifiers). I think this is really good news, as it means we can have even better quality than I previously thought.

In reply to your issue over decoding, I'm confident about this because I found the analogue output of the Denon to be superior to its LPCM output, and that analogue signal will come from what the player has already converted to LPCM. If the player decoding was flawed, the analogue output would be as well, so I doubt the analogue output could possibly be better.

In this configuration, there's no HDMI connection between the decoder and the DAC, and I believe thats where the problem is. It seems that the Onkyo solution is able to get round this by using different processes with bitstream, though it needn't have been that way. We just didn't know before.

The decoding issue has been discussed for some time at my "home" forums, the UK AVForums.com. One of the UK manufacturers let it slip that only the PS3 was able to correctly decode DTS MA to LPCM - all the rest (at that time) simply converted the DTS core. (However, newer players like the Panny 350 & 550 were understood to process DTS MA properly.) As you know, however, TrueHD does not have a core like DTS MA, and I believe that this problem affects DTS MA decoding, and not TrueHD. Thats one of the reasons why I was keen to try both for myself. When using the same player and processor, I found that THD & DTS MA had the same improvement with bitstreaming.

When I explained all this to my wife after blind testing her, her impression was DTS MA showed less improvement with bitsreaming than DTHD. However, that was probably a reflection of the superior LPCM output of the Denon, which did close the gap. The LG & Samsung cannot decode DTS MA to LPCM of course, and remember I said that player performance was a factor? With regard to player performance, there have been some enthusiastic auditions and threads on this subject at AVForums, and the consensus is that the PS3 is really the tail-end charlie for LPCM audio performance these days, and players like the sony 5000, Pioneer 09 and Denon 3800 are running ahead.

So although there is more than one variable in your comparison, it doesn't surprise me in the least that the PS3 didn't sound so good. There are many other issues to relate in this subject, but I'll save those for a bit.

regards, Nick

You know I felt the same way about this, TrueHD sounded louder bitstreamed via BD35 vs. LPCM with my PS3 to my 805 which is maybe why your wife found it sounding better bitstreamed. DTS-MA didn't seem any different to me when bitstreamed. One of the things I noticed with TrueHD bitstreamed to my 805 the receiver did dialnorm adjustments i.e. +4 dialnorm would pop up on the receivers display. One of the things with THX certified receivers is that they volume match Dolby soundtracks to DTS as Dolby soundtracks are master approx. 4dbs lower than DTS. So it got me thinking that the PS3 doesn't process the dialnorm metadata and since outputs them as PCM my receiver doesn't apply any dialnorm, so I PM'd Roger Dressler from Dolby on AVSforums about this. Here is what I sent him followed by his reponse.

Private Message Select Option... Move to folder... Delete Download as XML Download as CSV Download as TEXT
Recipients: Roger Dressler

Today, 02:10 PM
nismo604
lurker


Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 134 PS3 and dialnorm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Roger your name kept popping up in the BD35 tread, you have said that the PS3 decodes TrueHD properly. I had the PS3 as my primary BD player and have added a BD35. Compared to PCM and DTS-MA, TrueHD always sounded softer on my PS3. Now that I'm able to bitstream while I don't hear a difference with DTS-MA or PCM but TrueHD seems to sound louder and fuller. Why is that? My thinking has to do with my THX receiver (Onkyo 805) rather than seeing PCM it knows what codec is coming in adjusts the dialnorm to volume match TrueHD with DTS-MA. Is this correct, does the PS3 not recoqnize the dialnorm flags? Thanks again. I loving lossless keep it coming.


and this is his reply

Roger Dressler
AVS Special Member


Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,315 Re: PS3 and dialnorm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think your theory is probably correct about the THX AVRs offsetting the dialnorm. The PS3 however does not do that (in other words it recognizes and properly applies dialnorm), so it plays TrueHD back slightly lower, probably 4 dB lower.

Enjoy!
--Roger
__________________
Roger

Briefly looking at this thread the common denominator for people who feel bitstreaming is better seem to have a THX certified receiver/pre-pro. Onkyo 705 or higher.

[axe79]

Originally Posted by saprano

But the ps3 set to LPCM uses those also. bitstream or LPCM is not better than the other, i've said this a million times already but i think its a volume thing. the receivers default volume is set higher, thats what i think anyway. i've tested this a bunch of times with lossy audio bitstreamed and decoded in the ps3, some movies the AV sounds louder, and on others they both sound the same. i really dont think bitstream adds some magical formula to the sound.

I don't think things are as straight forward as that unfortunately. I'm sure you are right in what you find ON YOUR SYSTEM. However on mine (which is a far more revealing set up that has been modified as well) the transparancy, dynamics, musicality clearly show marked differences.

It is well known in Hi Fi circles that the more revealing the system is the more it shows imperfections with the source.

Have found this site which is a good read on what the PS3 can bitstream.
http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2008...ray-audio.html

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by axe79

Your results are exactly what I have been finding.- Bitstreaming between a PS3 and an Onkyo 875 (Blue ray) and using Monitor Audio RS8 5:1, really makes you feel you are invoved IN the soundtrack rather than just listening to it.
What is really puzzling me is that the PS3 doesn't Bitstream TrueHD (it doesn't have the chip to do it) so the Onkyo is processing THX DD 5:1 through its 'Burr Brown DAC' it has ALL the detail plus much more texture.
Discovered this over a year ago and I still keep trying various discs and flicking between LPMC and Bitsream, and every time Bitstream wins!
Logic says it shouldn't be so, but my EARS say different, and so do friends and family who watch the films with me.
I have not read of an explanation for this from any of the clever guys who know their stuff.

I am unsure if other factors are playing a part here as I have optimised the Mains feed with a Dedicated spur and Mains Transformers (2) conditioning so I have a totally clean, 'high current' supply with surge protection etc. Also Clarity Cap SA upgrades to the cross overs in the speakers and the AV speaker settings musically fined tuned to the room. This has transformed the Onkyo removing the usual muddyness and smearing on its signal paths.

Unlike many folks round here, I don't believe we should expect bitstream to sound the same as LPCM. There are good reasons why this should be the case, and I can explain, but there are important questions to be asked first.

When you say you had better results with bitstream, can you explain the configuration that you were using - what material, disc, player, configuration, connection, amplifier etc?

Cheers, Nick

[axe79]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Unlike many folks round here, I don't believe we should expect bitstream to sound the same as LPCM. There are good reasons why this should be the case, and I can explain, but there are important questions to be asked first.

When you say you had better results with bitstream, can you explain the configuration that you were using - what material, disc, player, configuration, connection, amplifier etc?

Cheers, Nick

Hi Nick
My system is....

Samsung LE46M86, Onkyo 875, Sony PS3, RDR970, Modded MA RS8,RSW12,RSLCR,RSFX. Soundstyle WG3AV, QED SA XT/Kimber4TC,Classic Powerkords, Audioquest Quartz interconnects, Belkin AV silver HDMI cables, Mains:-shielded spur. BT MTU's, Bi-amped fronts /bi cabled fronts,centre.
Speakers are set on the THX (80) apart from the fronts which are Full Range. Sub is tuned so you hear it/feel it when it has work to do, not otherwise! Sound stage in the 875 set to Wide.

Have the PS3 set to Bit stream and output on 720p with the Reon processor in the 875 upscaling it. The speakers have been fine tuned to my largish room giving great detail and presence. They never sound as a wall of sound is hitting you, or stressed. Just an effortless increase in volume until things begin to shake if you turn the sound up too much!

Have played on it all the Blue Ray releases (4 a month) for over a year now.
Have tried various settings but this is the preferred one.

[welwynnick]

OK thanks. I presume you're talking about blu-ray playback, in which case there is a problem.

The PS3 will only bitstream SD audio sources like DVD.

With HD sources like BD it can only output lossless digital audio with LPCM.

To do a fair comparison between lpcm and bitstream, you need a stand-alone player that does the appropriate internal decoding (like DTS MA to LPCM, where thats whats on the disc you're playing).

Nick

[axe79]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

OK thanks. I presume you're talking about blu-ray playback, in which case there is a problem.

The PS3 will only bitstream SD audio sources like DVD.

With HD sources like BD it can only output lossless digital audio with LPCM.

To do a fair comparison between lpcm and bitstream, you need a stand-alone player that does the appropriate internal decoding (like DTS MA to LPCM, where thats whats on the disc you're playing).

Nick

Besides my Ears telling me something else, I have found this info from Eric Stewart who has looked deeply into this.
http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2008...ray-audio.html

"HDMI 1.3 digital audio output from the PlayStation 3 can be unconverted bitstream output for Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1.

HDMI 1.3 digital audio output from the PlayStation 3 can be bitstream output that has been stripped to the equivalent of Dolby Digital 5.1 for Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD. It can be bitstream output that has been stripped to the equivalent of DTS 5.1 for DTS-HD High Resolution or DTS-HD Master Audio. In both cases, the "extension" part of the bitstream is discarded and just the "core" bitstream is output.


In the above, I have been careful to state what the PlayStation 3 can do. What it will do, audio-wise, on its HDMI output depends on the device the PS3's HDMI output is connected to. For instance, if the external device is a TV that cannot handle any more than two channels of LPCM input, the PlayStation 3 will downmix everything to LPCM 2.0 before outputting it. This will happen automatically, since HDMI devices coordinate with one another to find a mutually acceptable format.

By the same token, when the PS3 is connected to a device that is not HDMI 1.3-capable, the connection cannot achieve the increased data rates possible with HDMI 1.3. At lower HDMI 1.2 rates, the LPCM output of the PS3 might be internally downsampled so as to reduce its data rate, and thus its audio quality.


Many PS3 aficionados have asked whether Sony might one day issue a System Software upgrade which will allow the PS3 to pass the various compressed audio formats through as bitstreams to be decoded by external gear. In particular, they'd like the lossless codecs, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, to be optionally treated as bitstreams for external decoding. Of these two lossless codecs, DTS-HD Master Audio is the one most asked about, since Dolby TrueHD is, after all, able to be decoded internally by the PS3 with no loss of information. (Now, as of April 2008, DTS-HD Master Audio can also be decoded by the PS3, but not passed through as a bitstream.)

To date, Sony has not been terribly responsive to these suggestions. Other than confirming that:

* of the four higher-resolution or lossless audio compression codecs, the only one the PS3 can decode without sacrificing any information is Dolby TrueHD, and

* of the four higher-resolution or lossless audio compression codecs, the PS3 can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, but not Dolby Digital Plus or DTS-HD High Resolution

* the PS3 cannot pass through any codecs as bitstreams rather than LPCM

* the PS3 can pass through the four advanced audio compression codecs as bitstreams, rather than decoding them to linear PCM, but it can pass them through only in their "core" 5.1-channel, low-bitrate forms"

Now I believe the Onkyo 875 being a HDMI 1.3 receiver is processing the 5:1 Bitstream core through the Burr Brown DAC's (which are a Hi End component)
and enhancing it to a level that the PS3 cannot touch.

What I do know is having built and modified AV system that sounds on Music as good as Meridian, Sugden, etc the soundtrack performance is all that matters to me. Playing Blue ray Bitstream and CD's and albums off a Hard Drive sound as good as each other, they don't on LPCM.

Most AV systems I have listened to sound muddy, dampened, enclosed so I can understand how LPCM injects some artificial sparkle.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by axe79

Besides my Ears telling me something else, I have found this info from Eric Stewart who has looked deeply into this.


"HDMI 1.3 digital audio output from the PlayStation 3 can be unconverted bitstream output for Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1.

HDMI 1.3 digital audio output from the PlayStation 3 can be bitstream output that has been stripped to the equivalent of Dolby Digital 5.1 for Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD. It can be bitstream output that has been stripped to the equivalent of DTS 5.1 for DTS-HD High Resolution or DTS-HD Master Audio. In both cases, the "extension" part of the bitstream is discarded and just the "core" bitstream is output.


In the above, I have been careful to state what the PlayStation 3 can do. What it will do, audio-wise, on its HDMI output depends on the device the PS3's HDMI output is connected to. For instance, if the external device is a TV that cannot handle any more than two channels of LPCM input, the PlayStation 3 will downmix everything to LPCM 2.0 before outputting it. This will happen automatically, since HDMI devices coordinate with one another to find a mutually acceptable format.

By the same token, when the PS3 is connected to a device that is not HDMI 1.3-capable, the connection cannot achieve the increased data rates possible with HDMI 1.3. At lower HDMI 1.2 rates, the LPCM output of the PS3 might be internally downsampled so as to reduce its data rate, and thus its audio quality.


Many PS3 aficionados have asked whether Sony might one day issue a System Software upgrade which will allow the PS3 to pass the various compressed audio formats through as bitstreams to be decoded by external gear. In particular, they'd like the lossless codecs, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, to be optionally treated as bitstreams for external decoding. Of these two lossless codecs, DTS-HD Master Audio is the one most asked about, since Dolby TrueHD is, after all, able to be decoded internally by the PS3 with no loss of information. (Now, as of April 2008, DTS-HD Master Audio can also be decoded by the PS3, but not passed through as a bitstream.)

To date, Sony has not been terribly responsive to these suggestions. Other than confirming that:

* of the four higher-resolution or lossless audio compression codecs, the only one the PS3 can decode without sacrificing any information is Dolby TrueHD, and

* of the four higher-resolution or lossless audio compression codecs, the PS3 can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, but not Dolby Digital Plus or DTS-HD High Resolution
* the PS3 cannot pass through any codecs as bitstreams rather than LPCM

* the PS3 can pass through the four advanced audio compression codecs as bitstreams, rather than decoding them to linear PCM, but it can pass them through only in their "core" 5.1-channel, low-bitrate forms"

Now I believe the Onkyo 875 being a HDMI 1.3 receiver is processing the 5:1 Bitstream core through the Burr Brown DAC's (which are a Hi End component)
and enhancing it to a level that the PS3 cannot touch.

What I do know is having built and modified AV system that sounds on Music as good as Meridian, Sugden, etc the soundtrack performance is all that matters to me. Playing Blue ray Bitstream and CD's and albums off a Hard Drive sound as good as each other, they don't on LPCM.

Most AV systems I have listened to sound muddy, dampened, enclosed so I can understand how LPCM injects some artificial sparkle.

see bolded above...

I sure would like to see your sources on this. What do you mean that only TrueHD is decoded without sacrificing information? Isn't that the whole purporse of lossless and so if dts-HD MA is lossless by definition would that not mean that no information is sacrificed while decoding?

Also if you look at the system information scroll, Dolby Digital Plus is listed also. Typically with the codec companies like Dolby and dts you only have to list the highest format the unit is capable of doing. Everything else below is implied. dts-HD Master Audio implies everything down to the original legacy dts.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Do you hear a difference with the DRC turned on?

Presumably that would make TrueHD sound worse on bitstream?

Nick

Yes, the DRC reduces the punchy dynamics. Once I turn it off, IMHO, the tracks fed either from the PS3(LPCM) or the BD35(bitstreamed or LPCM) sound equaly powerful and clear.

My wife even commented on it when after we firsted watch KFP(TrueHD, DRC off) with kids using the PS3, a coupl of nights later after I hooked up the BD35, she watched it again(BD35, TrueHD bitstreamed which caused DRC on the 805 to default to AUTO), without me for a while, I joined her eventually and I noticed the dynamics were lacking, I changed DRC on the 805 from AUTO to OFF without even mentioning it to her. Soon she asked what I did because the audio sounded a lot better to her.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by axe79

Besides my Ears telling me something else, I have found this info from Eric Stewart who has looked deeply into this.
http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2008...ray-audio.html

"HDMI 1.3 digital audio output from the PlayStation 3 can be unconverted bitstream output for Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1.

HDMI 1.3 digital audio output from the PlayStation 3 can be bitstream output that has been stripped to the equivalent of Dolby Digital 5.1 for Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD. It can be bitstream output that has been stripped to the equivalent of DTS 5.1 for DTS-HD High Resolution or DTS-HD Master Audio. In both cases, the "extension" part of the bitstream is discarded and just the "core" bitstream is output.


In the above, I have been careful to state what the PlayStation 3 can do. What it will do, audio-wise, on its HDMI output depends on the device the PS3's HDMI output is connected to. For instance, if the external device is a TV that cannot handle any more than two channels of LPCM input, the PlayStation 3 will downmix everything to LPCM 2.0 before outputting it. This will happen automatically, since HDMI devices coordinate with one another to find a mutually acceptable format.

By the same token, when the PS3 is connected to a device that is not HDMI 1.3-capable, the connection cannot achieve the increased data rates possible with HDMI 1.3. At lower HDMI 1.2 rates, the LPCM output of the PS3 might be internally downsampled so as to reduce its data rate, and thus its audio quality.

Many PS3 aficionados have asked whether Sony might one day issue a System Software upgrade which will allow the PS3 to pass the various compressed audio formats through as bitstreams to be decoded by external gear. In particular, they'd like the lossless codecs, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, to be optionally treated as bitstreams for external decoding. Of these two lossless codecs, DTS-HD Master Audio is the one most asked about, since Dolby TrueHD is, after all, able to be decoded internally by the PS3 with no loss of information. (Now, as of April 2008, DTS-HD Master Audio can also be decoded by the PS3, but not passed through as a bitstream.)

To date, Sony has not been terribly responsive to these suggestions. Other than confirming that:

* of the four higher-resolution or lossless audio compression codecs, the only one the PS3 can decode without sacrificing any information is Dolby TrueHD, and

* of the four higher-resolution or lossless audio compression codecs, the PS3 can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, but not Dolby Digital Plus or DTS-HD High Resolution

* the PS3 cannot pass through any codecs as bitstreams rather than LPCM

* the PS3 can pass through the four advanced audio compression codecs as bitstreams, rather than decoding them to linear PCM, but it can pass them through only in their "core" 5.1-channel, low-bitrate forms"

Now I believe the Onkyo 875 being a HDMI 1.3 receiver is processing the 5:1 Bitstream core through the Burr Brown DAC's (which are a Hi End component)
and enhancing it to a level that the PS3 cannot touch.

What I do know is having built and modified AV system that sounds on Music as good as Meridian, Sugden, etc the soundtrack performance is all that matters to me. Playing Blue ray Bitstream and CD's and albums off a Hard Drive sound as good as each other, they don't on LPCM.

Most AV systems I have listened to sound muddy, dampened, enclosed so I can understand how LPCM injects some artificial sparkle.

Two things:

1) AFAIK, the PS3 does not pass "reduced quality" lossless after decoding all codecs to PCM. The PS3 decodes all and any lossless PCM is transmitted over HDMI and doesn't become lossy. It does not decode any differently than if the receiver had the job of doing the decoding. I am not penalized for owning an HDMI 1.2 receiver because I allow the PS3 to do the decoding and pass the PCM, including any lossless quality, to my receiver for further processing. There is no downsampling done by the PS3 when you ask it to decode to PCM.

2) The core bitstream from TrueHD and DTS-HD MA that you have been talking about is exactly the 640kbps DD and 1.5Mbps DTS I stated in a prior post by me. Let me break it down:

TrueHD track always has a companion 640kbps DD track. The track may be hidden or it may be a discrete choice in the BD audio menu. Similarly, DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD HR have a 1.5Mbps lossy "core" track (sometimes the core can be 768kbps but this is extremely rare). Unlike TrueHD, the MA and HR extension wraps around the lossy "core" to create the lossless track. There's an important difference. With DTS, it's just one discrete soundtrack whereas for TrueHD/DD, it requires physical space on the BD for 2 discrete tracks.

Now that I've adequately confused you, it doesn't surprise me that you prefer bitstreaming from the PS3 as the "core" tracks of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA or DTS-HD HR are quite good when compared head to head to their DVD counterparts that do not get the higher bitrates.

[saprano]

There is no reduced quality, loss of information, or anything else missing when ps3 decodes the HD formats. sir terrence explainied this a million times already. terrence maby you can explain again?

[saprano]

And yes the ps3 does decode DTS-HR, it was added with the DTS-MA firmware update. then later on we got DTS 96/24 and some other things as well.

DD+ is there as well, the studios just dont use it.

[axe79]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Two things:

1) AFAIK, the PS3 does not pass "reduced quality" lossless after decoding all codecs to PCM. The PS3 decodes all and any lossless PCM is transmitted over HDMI and doesn't become lossy. It does not decode any differently than if the receiver had the job of doing the decoding. I am not penalized for owning an HDMI 1.2 receiver because I allow the PS3 to do the decoding and pass the PCM, including any lossless quality, to my receiver for further processing. There is no downsampling done by the PS3 when you ask it to decode to PCM.

2) The core bitstream from TrueHD and DTS-HD MA that you have been talking about is exactly the 640kbps DD and 1.5Mbps DTS I stated in a prior post by me. Let me break it down:

TrueHD track always has a companion 640kbps DD track. The track may be hidden or it may be a discrete choice in the BD audio menu. Similarly, DTS-HD MA and DTS-HD HR have a 1.5Mbps lossy "core" track (sometimes the core can be 768kbps but this is extremely rare). Unlike TrueHD, the MA and HR extension wraps around the lossy "core" to create the lossless track. There's an important difference. With DTS, it's just one discrete soundtrack whereas for TrueHD/DD, it requires physical space on the BD for 2 discrete tracks.

Now that I've adequately confused you, it doesn't surprise me that you prefer bitstreaming from the PS3 as the "core" tracks of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA or DTS-HD HR are quite good when compared head to head to their DVD counterparts that do not get the higher bitrates.

Yep, totally confused, but my EARS aren't. (don't do DVD)

Point 1) What you don't take into account with this theory is the length of the signal path and timing issues, or the chip quality doing the decoding!

Point 2) Bitstream I get 5:1 sound, I watch and enjoy the film. Not bothered that the 7:1 is stripped out, or that I don't get the directors talk about how he made the film. I just want to enjoy the film and be emotionally moved by it. Give me the movie sound track and let it rip.

On another note, I really enjoy my food (and wine), I mean really enjoy!
Personally can cook to a Michelin Star standard and have high end wines laid down in bond. There is a saying in chefing about customers "they can't tell the difference between shit and chocolate" meaning they can't tell good from bad. It appears the same can be said on other things.

People have Music / AV systems of various quality and what configuration sounds good on one doesn't mean it will sound as good on another. Serious upgrades (and costs) are made in getting a three dimensional sound stage having sweetness/attack/balance/texture/ foot taping involvement.
The problem is that on AV systems without having the background knowledge and doing mods you can't buy off the shelf anything that will hold a candle to really good Hi Fi.
It is a great pity that not much attention is placed on the Main supply and the noise carried on it which effects everything, or on the crossovers in speakers.
Address that and discover what a clean signal path really is like and you will be amazed. (or your Ears will be!)

We are talking about sound, and I don't really care what buttons light up on the receiver, what I care about is the performance!
Just as if I went to a concert and got lifted by the music/acoustics of the theater.
Having heard a opera singer perform in the Roman amphitheater in Lucca/Itally (Puccini's home) that was one bloody good reference performance that moved my soul.

That's what matters, what moves ones soul.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by axe79

Yep, totally confused, but my EARS aren't. (don't do DVD)

Point 1) What you don't take into account with this theory is the length of the signal path and timing issues, or the chip quality doing the decoding!

Point 2) Bitstream I get 5:1 sound, I watch and enjoy the film. Not bothered that the 7:1 is stripped out, or that I don't get the directors talk about how he made the film. I just want to enjoy the film and be emotionally moved by it. Give me the movie sound track and let it rip.

On another note, I really enjoy my food (and wine), I mean really enjoy!
Personally can cook to a Michelin Star standard and have high end wines laid down in bond. There is a saying in chefing about customers "they can't tell the difference between shit and chocolate" meaning they can't tell good from bad. It appears the same can be said on other things.

People have Music / AV systems of various quality and what configuration sounds good on one doesn't mean it will sound as good on another. Serious upgrades (and costs) are made in getting a three dimensional sound stage having sweetness/attack/balance/texture/ foot taping involvement.
The problem is that on AV systems without having the background knowledge and doing mods you can't buy off the shelf anything that will hold a candle to really good Hi Fi.
It is a great pity that not much attention is placed on the Main supply and the noise carried on it which effects everything, or on the crossovers in speakers.
Address that and discover what a clean signal path really is like and you will be amazed. (or your Ears will be!)

We are talking about sound, and I don't really care what buttons light up on the receiver, what I care about is the performance!
Just as if I went to a concert and got lifted by the music/acoustics of the theater.
Having heard a opera singer perform in the Roman amphitheater in Lucca/Itally (Puccini's home) that was one bloody good reference performance that moved my soul.

That's what matters, what moves ones soul.

wow? sounds like an induction into the world of audiophile snobery...

Have you ever heard of law of diminishing returns? A $100,000 system is not necesarily 10x better than one costing $10,000.

Just because you spend more does not make it better, there are way too many factors involved to audio reproduction that can colorize the final sound. Sounds to me like you like to look at the fancy nameplates you overpaid for.

There's a lot of snakeoil in the audiophile world, I have some purple markers that will reduce the jitter with your BDs if you would like?

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by CraigW

wow? sounds like an induction into the world of audiophile snobery...

Have you ever heard of law of diminishing returns? A $100,000 system is not necesarily 10x better than one costing $10,000.

Just because you spend more does not make it better, there are way too many factors involved to audio reproduction that can colorize the final sound. Sounds to me like you like to look at the fancy nameplates you overpaid for.

There's a lot of snakeoil in the audiophile world, I have some purple markers that will reduce the jitter with your BDs if you would like?

I will have to do an LPCM shootout b/w my $600 PS3 and my $2000 Denon 3800. It's quite possible that the jitter from the PS3 is bad enough to be significantly different from the 3800. However, the shootout will require level matching as a minimum and I won't have time to do that until I come back from Milan. It wouldn't be so hard to believe that the PS3 has a case of the "jitters" seeing as how the PS3 is a gaming device first and foremost.