PS5 Uses Liquid Metal Cooling - New Patent Info

[Mavrick]

Sony patent for APU liquid metal cooling and Gamernexus saying this is a part of PS5 cooling system

https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/...KDUB59-01124-1

he present invention provides a structure in which a metal having fluidity is utilized as a heat conductive material. In this structure, a heat conductive material is prevented from invading an unintended region even when a positional change of a semiconductor device occurs or a vibration occurs. This electronic apparatus has a heat conductive material (31) formed between a heat radiator (50) and a semiconductor chip (11). The heat conductive material (31) has fluidity at least when the semiconductor chip (11) is in operation. The heat conductive material (31) has electroconductivity. The heat conductive material (31) is surrounded by a seal member (33). A capacitor (16) is covered by an insulating section (15).

Asus are using the same method on their upcoming gaming laptops.

Looks like an isolation walls or a chamber to keep gallium from seeping out from under the heatsink.

For those that don't computer, you need a thermal compound between the heat sink and the processor. Even mirror flat, the bottom of the heat sink still has micro grooves that trap air and air is a very poor thermal conductor. This essentially traps excess heat you could be removing, and we all know heat is the enemy of small closed box consoles. So you use some thermally conductive paste to fill in those cracks and make a nice even bond to the surface of the processor.

Gallium is liquid at room temperature and being a metal has much greater thermal conductive properties over traditional paste they spread under the heatsink. The problem however, is in being a metal, it's electrically conductive and has a tendency to flow like water when warm. This means to use it and have great thermal properties, you have to find a way to deal with the possibility of it leaking out and touching small things like transistors and bridging them. This can short out components on the board and ruin your devices. The patent looks like a way to keep the gallium where it needs to be so you can move and bump the console without worry if it's going to leak and short something.

The invention provides a structure in which a metal having fluidity is utilized as a heat conductive material. This heat conductive material is formed between the heat radiator and the chip.

ELI5, Some invention of utilizing thermal paste where it prevents it from invading an unintended region when a positional change of a semiconductor device occurs/vibration occurs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comment..._filed_by_sie/

So this in conjunction with the earlier patent could be the exotic cooling solution they came up with.

[Steelmaker]

liquid metal cooling?!? Has this ever been used before? That's some futuristic, reverse-engineered UFO shit right there!

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

liquid metal cooling?!? Has this ever been used before? That's some futuristic, reverse-engineered UFO shit right there!

It is in use on PC but it won't be exactly the same way Sony are doing it here. Asus are using it in their upcoming gaming laptops. I've seen people who use it measure circa 20c cooler temps vs standard thermal paste so it should be a big improvement over the current PS4 Pro.

[Mavrick]

PS5 probably wouldn't be very user friendly when it comes to taking it apart, hopefully comes with a warning.

While this shouldn’t be an issue for anyone buying a laptop, we’d like to take a moment to remind you that because Conductonaut contains gallium, it’s catastrophically destructive to aluminum and cannot be placed in contact with it. Not many people are going to need this sort of warning, but if you’re the kind of enthusiast who promptly takes a laptop apart to regrease it and improve the baseline cooling, be aware of what you’re dealing with and take precautions accordingly.

[Mavrick]

SO this is where the extra cost in cooling comes from. Liquid metal paste is like $10 to buy retail, so it wouldn't cost a great deal to Sony to buy but more than regular thermal paste.

The other cost factor then is that they can't use Aluminium for the heat sink because the liquid metal will corrode it so a few extra bucks on a different heat sink material.

Of course then they have to spend a bit extra designing the entire thing to be sealed up tight so nothing leaks out.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

SO this is where the extra cost in cooling comes from. Liquid metal paste is like $10 to buy retail, so it wouldn't cost a great deal to Sony to buy but more than regular thermal paste.

The other cost factor then is that they can't use Aluminium for the heat sink because the liquid metal will corrode it so a few extra bucks on a different heat sink material.

Of course then they have to spend a bit extra designing the entire thing to be sealed up tight so nothing leaks out.

It sure makes you wonder, was all this really necessary? I mean, was this the ONLY solution to keep this damn thing cool? If Sony decided to go with fewer/faster CU's instead of more/slower CU's to cut cost, it seems to me that the need for this expensive cooling solution completely negates that benefit. If Sony had decided to take MS' approach with more/slower CU's, perhaps a more conventional/cheaper cooling solution would've worked. I don't know but it's interesting to speculate on.

[Mavrick]

I think the issue is that they are going for much higher clock speeds which = much higher temps. So I guess they had to do something new to keep the temps down and this is probably the most efficient cheapest way of doing it.

The liquid metal isn't new to PC, it certainly is one of the best cooling upgrades we can be looking at 20c lower temps because of it. There's even some PS4 Pro owners that have added liquid metal cooling to solve the issue of the fan kicking in to hyperdrive after 10 secs of use.

What's new is the way Sony has designed a chamber to contain it so it doesn't destroy the console from the inside out.

I don't think it will have added a massive amount to the cost overall though so I'm glad they've gone for it.

[Steedeel]

It better melt down and reform as a PS6 or I’m going to be let down!

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

I think the issue is that they are going for much higher clock speeds which = much higher temps. So I guess they had to do something new to keep the temps down and this is probably the most efficient cheapest way of doing it.

I get that but I guess what I'm saying is, the higher clock speeds were necessary due to the lower CU count. The decision to go with a lower CU count...I can only assume was to save on cost. But that saving seems to be somewhat negated by the expensive cooling solution. So what was the point to begin with? I know Cerny said he prefers a fewer/faster CU solution. But does he REALLY? Or was that a bit marketing spin? Are there genuine advantages to that design vs MS' more traditional approach?

[Diesel]

My own personal T-1000? Awesome.

[NARMAK]

Regarding this choice. It's incredibly smart of Sony because it delivers the high performance needed whilst keeping the system cool and quiet. Marginally more expensive but overall addresses the complaints of the noise and heat from current gen consoles.

Also not to mention this again helps boost that clock speed higher for potentially multiple components in the more limited form factor they work with and helps set a standard for any future console design to be more powerful and possibly remain compact as possible. Compact being subjective of course given the size of the PS5 to performance.

Overall i'd heavily expect this to influence not only future PlayStation consoles but potentially any PS5 Pro that may release.

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I get that but I guess what I'm saying is, the higher clock speeds were necessary due to the lower CU count. The decision to go with a lower CU count...I can only assume was to save on cost. But that saving seems to be somewhat negated by the expensive cooling solution. So what was the point to begin with? I know Cerny said he prefers a fewer/faster CU solution. But does he REALLY? Or was that a bit marketing spin? Are there genuine advantages to that design vs MS' more traditional approach?

The cost of this cooling method isn't that expensive. We're talking dollars to manufacture rather than cents of a traditional cooling method.

I don't know for sure but I'd imagine the savings from using lower CU is greater than the cost of the cooling method.

I think it has more to do with yield also. They should be able to achieve a much better yield on production, it's also possible that CUs could be unlocked if production yield is perfect. But the benefit of an extra 2 CUs could be negligible anyway so might not even be worth the effort.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

The cost of this cooling method isn't that expensive. We're talking dollars to manufacture rather than cents of a traditional cooling method.

I don't know for sure but I'd imagine the savings from using lower CU is greater than the cost of the cooling method.

I think it has more to do with yield also. They should be able to achieve a much better yield on production, it's also possible that CUs could be unlocked if production yield is perfect. But the benefit of an extra 2 CUs could be negligible anyway so might not even be worth the effort.

The entire die of PS5's GPU only has a total CU count of 40. Much lower than XSX's total die size of 56 CU's. Both of which disable 4 CU's. Again, its pretty obvious that Sony went with such a smaller die to cut costs. Probably to offset the more expensive SSD/IO throughput and cooling solution. The CPU seems to be virtually the same as the XSX CPU, though I'm not sure of the reason for the slight clock speed difference (3.5 vs 3.8).

Funny you mention yields because its being reported that the PS5 is getting a spec bump due to that very reason. Apparently yields ARE better than expected and that the CU count will be increasing from 36 to 38. That would take the teraflop count to, for all intents and purposes, eleven (if you round up but more precisely its10.85). Im also hearing that CPU and RAM clock speeds might get a bump as well. That would be a cool little last minute surprise!

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

The cost of this cooling method isn't that expensive. We're talking dollars to manufacture rather than cents of a traditional cooling method.

I don't know for sure but I'd imagine the savings from using lower CU is greater than the cost of the cooling method.

I think it has more to do with yield also. They should be able to achieve a much better yield on production, it's also possible that CUs could be unlocked if production yield is perfect. But the benefit of an extra 2 CUs could be negligible anyway so might not even be worth the effort.

That's definitely one part where you can use more "leftover" chips and probably why Sony could get a sweeter deal but in future, leaves the potential for a PS5 Pro to as you said, unlock those CUs and have a higher clock speed.

Maybe Sony already knew that and has it up their sleeve for a mid gen upgrade path for enthusiasts who want that. After all, if you then take that Nvidia are releasing rumoured 20-30 Teraflop GPUs this coming year and allegedly AMD has a "Big Navi" rival. It makes sense Sony could bump their specs up even to around 15 Teraflops on the GPU with beefier RTRT and only a small bump on the CPU side like they did on the Pro from memory.

I do wonder though if Sony might have potentially found a way to use this for the CPU and also a smarter and better airflow via the design they went with and the PS5 releases air directly up from those vent like sides in the design.

[Derb]

Dem dollars translates into millions out of Sony’s pockets. That’s a good thing to hear. It means they are taking this issue seriously as they should since both chips are very spicy.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by Derb

Dem dollars translates into millions out of Sony’s pockets. That’s a good thing to hear. It means they are taking this issue seriously as they should since both chips are very spicy.

Honestly, would be a smarter investment than securing some of the overpriced exclusives from 3rd parties

[heyadol]

Well this all seems like great news, including the potential extra unlocked CUs/spec bump, but I really want to know how much heat this thing produces. It’s great that this exotic cooling solution keeps the PS5 temp manageable, but if they need to dissipate a lot of heat that means it’s going to get vented into my room. At the moment I can only play PS4/XOX early morning or late evening because it gets unbearably hot here and the aircon doesn’t reach my room.

I’m moving next month and will have central air conditioning so maybe it won’t matter, but I still think it isn’t going to be in an entertainment center.

[GeneticMutation]

The extreme cooling measures Sony have made make me believe they're going to be overclocking the sh!t out of PS5!

[Zivouhr]

Mercury is also a liquid metal and extremely dangerous if touched. It can absorb through the skin last time I heard. I imagine this Gallium isn't much different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium

Precautions
Metallic gallium is not toxic. However, exposure to gallium halide complexes can result in acute toxicity.[81] The Ga3+ ion of soluble gallium salts tends to form the insoluble hydroxide when injected in large doses; precipitation of this hydroxide resulted in nephrotoxicity in animals. In lower doses, soluble gallium is tolerated well and does not accumulate as a poison, instead being excreted mostly through urine. Excretion of gallium occurs in two phases: the first phase has a biological half-life of 1 hour, while the second has a biological half-life of 25 hours.

EDIT: I'm betting Sony wouldn't go forward with this solution unless they were sure it was safe, knowing I never was hurt physically by any Sony product since the Walkman. But caution when opening it for repairs or adjustments, agreed.

[NARMAK]

Originally Posted by GeneticMutation

The extreme cooling measures Sony have made make me believe they're going to be overclocking the sh!t out of PS5!

I'd say they already have tbh given how high the clock speed is already but i'm wondering what overhead this may potentially leave them for a PS5 Pro given the Big Navi stuff is due out soon and a small bump to CPU is due usually too.