Batman & Robin is an amazing Demo film

[Jay H.]

I'm convinced Carrey and Jones were snorting cocaine before each of their takes.

[JediJones77]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I don't mean to start a big argument here because you seem like a huge Snyder fan and nothing will change your mind, but, as someone who's read a good amount of comic books and seen most animated and live action Batman things out there, I just can't agree. Batman V Superman was so dissapointing to me.

I've seen Snyder fans come up with deep explanations to everything in the movie, and thats great if it works for you, but Batman blindly hating on Superman and the Martha scene are all just a few examples of things I don't want to ever see on a Batman film again and clearly DON'T get what Batman is all about. At least Batman & Robin wasn't supposed to be taken very seriously.

I spent years reading comic books, including Batman, grew up watching the Adam West show, have watched a lot of the DC Animated cartoons and have seen all the Batman movies except Schumacher's. If you insist on bringing up credentials.

Number one, it's absolutely classic pulp fiction mythology for heroes to have stories where they "go dark." That's part of comic books and pre-dates them as well. Sometimes it's from external factors, like Indiana Jones being cursed in Temple of Doom or Superman being exposed to a kryptonite variant in Superman III. Sometimes it's from more complex psychological factors, which I think is the more adult and intelligent way to write it. BVS gave innumerable reasons, explicitly stated, for why Batman had gone dark and lost his way. The most important part of the writing is that Snyder clearly understood exactly what Batman's baseline was. Hence why all those factors had to be applied to give Batman unusual motivations, why Alfred was there to act as his conscience, and why by the end of the movie, the character arc is complete and Batman is back to his old self again. The writing and the character development was masterful.

The "Martha" scene is an absolutely brilliant crystallization of Batman's psychology and humanity. It shows that Snyder fundamentally understands why Batman is a crimefighter. In these kinds of stories, it really doesn't matter what snaps the hero out of his funk. Everyone who understands the "hero going dark" trope knows that has to happen sooner or later, and this was as good a reason as any for it. Nobody who didn't understand comic books, superheroes and Batman could come close to weaving together such a unique and complex story that explores all the facets of Batman's psychology by testing him and pushing him to his limits.

[dallywhitty]

Originally Posted by Jay H.

I'm convinced Carrey and Jones were snorting cocaine before each of their takes.

And I'm glad.

[kylor]

Originally Posted by JediJones77

I spent years reading comic books, including Batman, grew up watching the Adam West show, have watched a lot of the DC Animated cartoons and have seen all the Batman movies except Schumacher's. If you insist on bringing up credentials.

Number one, it's absolutely classic pulp fiction mythology for heroes to have stories where they "go dark." That's part of comic books and pre-dates them as well. Sometimes it's from external factors, like Indiana Jones being cursed in Temple of Doom or Superman being exposed to a kryptonite variant in Superman III. Sometimes it's from more complex psychological factors, which I think is the more adult and intelligent way to write it. BVS gave innumerable reasons, explicitly stated, for why Batman had gone dark and lost his way. The most important part of the writing is that Snyder clearly understood exactly what Batman's baseline was. Hence why all those factors had to be applied to give Batman unusual motivations, why Alfred was there to act as his conscience, and why by the end of the movie, the character arc is complete and Batman is back to his old self again. The writing and the character development was masterful.

The "Martha" scene is an absolutely brilliant crystallization of Batman's psychology and humanity. It shows that Snyder fundamentally understands why Batman is a crimefighter. In these kinds of stories, it really doesn't matter what snaps the hero out of his funk. Everyone who understands the "hero going dark" trope knows that has to happen sooner or later, and this was as good a reason as any for it. Nobody who didn't understand comic books, superheroes and Batman could come close to weaving together such a unique and complex story that explores all the facets of Batman's psychology by testing him and pushing him to his limits.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by JediJones77

I spent years reading comic books, including Batman, grew up watching the Adam West show, have watched a lot of the DC Animated cartoons and have seen all the Batman movies except Schumacher's. If you insist on bringing up credentials.

Number one, it's absolutely classic pulp fiction mythology for heroes to have stories where they "go dark." That's part of comic books and pre-dates them as well. Sometimes it's from external factors, like Indiana Jones being cursed in Temple of Doom or Superman being exposed to a kryptonite variant in Superman III. Sometimes it's from more complex psychological factors, which I think is the more adult and intelligent way to write it. BVS gave innumerable reasons, explicitly stated, for why Batman had gone dark and lost his way. The most important part of the writing is that Snyder clearly understood exactly what Batman's baseline was. Hence why all those factors had to be applied to give Batman unusual motivations, why Alfred was there to act as his conscience, and why by the end of the movie, the character arc is complete and Batman is back to his old self again. The writing and the character development was masterful.

The "Martha" scene is an absolutely brilliant crystallization of Batman's psychology and humanity. It shows that Snyder fundamentally understands why Batman is a crimefighter. In these kinds of stories, it really doesn't matter what snaps the hero out of his funk. Everyone who understands the "hero going dark" trope knows that has to happen sooner or later, and this was as good a reason as any for it. Nobody who didn't understand comic books, superheroes and Batman could come close to weaving together such a unique and complex story that explores all the facets of Batman's psychology by testing him and pushing him to his limits.

Then the sickening thud as Joss Whedon's hack job hit theatres in 2017 followed by the absolute joy of seeing the Snyder Cut come out this year. The only thing missing is the rest of Justice League but we already got far more than we should have and I'm okay with that.

[KManX89]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

Better than anything Nolan did!

Yeah, no, there's a reason Batman was put on cinematic ice for 8 years and why Batman Begins underperformed at the box office after B&R came out.

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by KManX89

Yeah, no, there's a reason Batman was put on cinematic ice for 8 years and why Batman Begins underperformed at the box office after B&R came out.

Because nothing could top Batman & Robin, and as you said Begins underperformed as proof that it was inferior word of mouth dropped it harder than I dropped 5th period P.E.

[Batman1980]

Batman Begins was the closest Nolan ever got to proving he actually understood anything about Bruce Wayne or his alter ego, the Bat.

[stvn1974]

People who site the underperformance of Batman Begins only prove the point that The Dark Knight was mostly successful because of Ledger's death.

Then Snyder went and ruined the character again with his films.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

People who site the underperformance of Batman Begins only prove the point that The Dark Knight was mostly successful because of Ledger's death.

Then Snyder went and ruined the character again with his films.

The Dark Knight was successful because it was a great film. It was going to be a great film that was hugely successful had Ledger not passed away. Nothing changed. The film was always poised to be a huge hit. Batman Begins was a solid hit in theaters and an enormous hit on DVD where word of mouth for the new Batman paved the way for The Dark Knight's record breaking run.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by JediJones77

I spent years reading comic books, including Batman, grew up watching the Adam West show, have watched a lot of the DC Animated cartoons and have seen all the Batman movies except Schumacher's. If you insist on bringing up credentials.

Number one, it's absolutely classic pulp fiction mythology for heroes to have stories where they "go dark." That's part of comic books and pre-dates them as well. Sometimes it's from external factors, like Indiana Jones being cursed in Temple of Doom or Superman being exposed to a kryptonite variant in Superman III. Sometimes it's from more complex psychological factors, which I think is the more adult and intelligent way to write it. BVS gave innumerable reasons, explicitly stated, for why Batman had gone dark and lost his way. The most important part of the writing is that Snyder clearly understood exactly what Batman's baseline was. Hence why all those factors had to be applied to give Batman unusual motivations, why Alfred was there to act as his conscience, and why by the end of the movie, the character arc is complete and Batman is back to his old self again. The writing and the character development was masterful.

The "Martha" scene is an absolutely brilliant crystallization of Batman's psychology and humanity. It shows that Snyder fundamentally understands why Batman is a crimefighter. In these kinds of stories, it really doesn't matter what snaps the hero out of his funk. Everyone who understands the "hero going dark" trope knows that has to happen sooner or later, and this was as good a reason as any for it. Nobody who didn't understand comic books, superheroes and Batman could come close to weaving together such a unique and complex story that explores all the facets of Batman's psychology by testing him and pushing him to his limits.

I disagree. Is it character development? It sure is. Is it very Batman-like to fall in this "hero going dark" trope and act like a complete idiot? Not at all. "If there's even a 1% chance he's our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty" WHAT!?

Sure, every character has its ups and downs. Look at Batman in the BTAS episode "I Am The Night". He's deppresed because Gordon gets shot and he couldn't avoid that, and begins questioning if what he's doing is worth it. It's an awesome episode, and it's a great storyline for an episode out of a series of more than a hundred. But do you really want to spent an entire movie, in which by the way you are INTRODUCING Batman into your universe, making him a total idiot only to have him go back to being the usual Batman (which we've never seen this version of before) by the end of the movie? That's where I don't agree with what Snyder did with the character.

People can like and dislike whatever they want, but when so many people start acting like the Martha scene is some kind of genious development for the character, that's when I start scratching my head. It became a meme for a reason.

Snyder just had a fetish for The Dark Knight Returns and borrowed heavily from there everything BUT the character of Bruce and Batman. Truly a shame in my book. How people look at BvS and see a masterpiece is something I'll never be able to piece together. To each their own!

[Jay H.]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

Because nothing could top Batman & Robin, and as you said Begins underperformed as proof that it was inferior word of mouth dropped it harder than I dropped 5th period P.E.

That's a very interesting theory.

[Hellraiserfan]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

Because nothing could top Batman & Robin, and as you said Begins underperformed as proof that it was inferior word of mouth dropped it harder than I dropped 5th period P.E.

If I remember right, Batman Begins did well it's 2nd weekend. Movies only do just as good if not better on their 2nd weekend at the box office from good word of mouth. People were in fact hesitant to see it opening weekend due to the bad taste in their mouth from B&R.

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by Jay H.

That's a very correct theory.

Totally agree!

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by HenriDeadMort

Now what is a demo film you may ask

Was this thread made in 2008?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

The Dark Knight was successful because it was a great film. It was going to be a great film that was hugely successful had Ledger not passed away. Nothing changed. The film was always poised to be a huge hit. Batman Begins was a solid hit in theaters and an enormous hit on DVD where word of mouth for the new Batman paved the way for The Dark Knight's record breaking run.

Steve hates Nolan, you are wasting your breath. None of it is down to Nolan’s ability, it’s all just luck, didn’t you know?

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I disagree. Is it character development? It sure is. Is it very Batman-like to fall in this "hero going dark" trope and act like a complete idiot? Not at all. "If there's even a 1% chance he's our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty" WHAT!?

Sure, every character has its ups and downs. Look at Batman in the BTAS episode "I Am The Night". He's deppresed because Gordon gets shot and he couldn't avoid that, and begins questioning if what he's doing is worth it. It's an awesome episode, and it's a great storyline for an episode out of a series of more than a hundred. But do you really want to spent an entire movie, in which by the way you are INTRODUCING Batman into your universe, making him a total idiot only to have him go back to being the usual Batman (which we've never seen this version of before) by the end of the movie? That's where I don't agree with what Snyder did with the character.

People can like and dislike whatever they want, but when so many people start acting like the Martha scene is some kind of genious development for the character, that's when I start scratching my head. It became a meme for a reason.

Snyder just had a fetish for The Dark Knight Returns and borrowed heavily from there everything BUT the character of Bruce and Batman. Truly a shame in my book. How people look at BvS and see a masterpiece is something I'll never be able to piece together. To each their own!

How people look at most of the MCU films and think they come even remotely close to the work of Snyder or Burton, I'll never be able to piece together. I've grown to accept that and will also say, to each their own.

[The Fallen Deity]

Batman & Robin is terrible... But also amazing.

So bad that it's good.

[Chumley]

Originally Posted by Jay H.

That's a very interesting theory.

Yeah, in the same way the flat earth theory is interesting.

[Dark City Denizen]

Originally Posted by KManX89

Yeah, no, there's a reason Batman was put on cinematic ice for 8 years and why Batman Begins underperformed at the box office after B&R came out.

Nolan’s Batman films are all pointless nonsense.