Like him or hate him, The Critical Drinker nails it about remakes/sequels/reboots...

[Guy87]

Originally Posted by Foggy

Well that’s quite the achievement, thank you.

But on the serious side, there is a difference between having a natural interest in something and being disappointed, and then acting like a movie intended at a general or young audience is a “personal insult” and continuing to complain about it 5+ years later. I’m at wits end with people continually saying there’s nothing original any more, to then see the list of films that I’ve seen from the year and have the number of IP films just barely cross the double digit mark and the slew of original films that seem to have barely made an impact financially, particularly when I know so many people in here “hate-watch” new franchise stuff.

I know not everyone is interested in the new foreign arthouse film or social issue drama, and that superhero movies and legacy sequels will pull in the most interest. But I dunno how anyone can watch the first thirty seconds of that video, see that guy get irrationally irate over the top of footage of the new animated He-Man and not think “maybe you need to grow up mate”.

See I have no argument with this, but the wording of this is miles away from "people need to grow up and watch films tailored to them".

His maturity levels and his interests are two seperate things (I'm going only on what you've said here, I haven't watched the video).

Someone can tell me they adore The Muppet Babies and I wouldn't call them immature. Someone else could get irrationally angry about how The Godfather Part III ruined their life and I'd think of them as a petulant child.

[-JKR-]

Originally Posted by Guy87

See I have no argument with this, but the wording of this is miles away from "people need to grow up and watch films tailored to them".

His maturity levels and his interests are two seperate things (I'm going only on what you've said here, I haven't watched the video).

Someone can tell me they adore The Muppet Babies and I wouldn't call them immature. Someone else could get irrationally angry about how The Godfather Part III ruined their life and I'd think of them as a petulant child.

As is often the case, I'd say that the HOW (you're a fan of something) is more important that WHAT you're a fan of.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

Turned the video off at around 6 minutes when he listed "things that don't play out well today" and included such stupid bullshit as "strong capable heroic male protagonists, traditional feminine beauty and sexual attractiveness, minority characters with even a hint of racial insensitivity, platonic same sex friendships" etc as things movies, and stories in general, can't do today.

You'd have to be a giant idiotic toad to think any of that is true. First off, who cares if movies don't have racially insensitive characters? That's a complaint? And having gay characters is bad? His example was of two lesbian characters in the last of us, implying it's bad that those characters were gay as opposed to just being friends. Ellie and Dina's relationship is absolutely a key plot point in The Last of Us Part 2, and having them be "just friends" to appeal to this year would rob the story of its emotional weight. It's like complaining that Jack and Rose were a couple, wishing the story was better representation for platonic male female relationships.

He used the MCU mandarin as reference for the racially insensitive thing, but also doesn't see how obviously there are strong, heroic, and capable males in the MCU? That makes up like 90% of the super heroes out there. Women aren't allowed to be attractive in movies anymore apparently too. That's news to like 95% of Hollywood. Someone get out there and tell Gal Gadot she's not allowed to be pretty in movies anymore. That'll be devastating. It's all she has going for her. Just a bunch of nonsensical crap that minor critical thinking could disprove.

People pour way too much of themselves into fandom. Movies are made by people, and people screw up. No matter how much you love a franchise, at some point there will be a misstep. Whether that's a bad episode, bad film, a lame finale, etc. it's only natural. Learning how to deal with disappointment and how to move on, or love the things you still enjoyed, is part of the process we should all have gone through while becoming adults.

I can't necessarily blame people for that though. Much of the blame does come from the culture of fandom studios and merchandisers encourage. They make far more money off the rabid fans than they do off movie goers who watch something, enjoy it, but move on. The "fan backlash" that happens when a creative makes a decision said fanbase doesn't like can only ever be the end result of the culture those very creatives and corporations encourage to suck money out of the fanbases in the first place. It's a cycle that's going to continue as long as there's money to be made.

Some good points here and as I said, I do NOT agree with the guy on everything. He does contradict himself and some of his claims, like "no strong male characters." Is just false. I’m with ya there. Any reviewer, including Plinkett who’s Star Wars prequel reviews are classic, made some false comments or had some incorrect statements in them.

To me, his comments specifically about about how content creators get mad at the fans when they call out issues really made sense. Somehow, the people that allow the IP to exist in the first place are to blame for having standards and calling out crap when they see it. That ain’t right. I wish I could have edited out some of the nonsense and just filtered it down to the key points that made a ton of sense. At least to me.

Originally Posted by -JKR-

As is often the case, I'd say that the HOW (you're a fan of something) is more important that WHAT you're a fan of.

When you say "how" do you mean how you got interested in the IP ain’t the first place? Or when? Or something else?

[-JKR-]

Nope, what I mean is how you ACT upon it.

If you're constantly an unbearable ******* whining and crying for a decade over the exact same things, even going as far as constantly berating and harrassing industry people online AND thinking that you (as a professional manbaby, ******, neckbeard, virgin, sad person) are entitled to such behaviour... that's definitely NOT how you should engage in your passion.

And the world would be a better place without having to read such dreck daily when discussing movies, pop culture, art, whatever.

YouTubers riling people up and enabling people to such behaviour are just as bad.

Example: I don't agree with George Lucas' policy to not release the theatrical versions of the original Star Wars movies, and if the topic comes up, I'll say such thing. But I don't feel the need to insult Lucas, pour all my frustrations into the conversation, bill him as the antichrist and look for people online connected to Lucas or Lucasfilm in order to harrass them.

I also wasn't a fan of The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker, but me not particularly liking those movies doesn't need to turn into hatred towards Rian Johnson, J.J. Abrams or other people involved.

And if I don't particularly care about an iteration of a franchise I like, I have the choice to simply not watch it. Or watch it and then move on with my life and revisit the movies I actually did like.

The Ghostbusters remake was another movie that brought the worst out of everyone. It wasn't a good movie, but it's not even that bad, it didn't destroy my childhood, it didn't ruin my life, it didn't make me angry, it's just discrete, mediocre-ish fantasy comedy, and I don't turn into the Hulk every time the name of Paul Feige or any of the actresses involved comes up. And I freakin' love Feig's The Heat. Such a great movie!

Sometimes studios and filmmakers shit the bed. Happens to the best of us. But fandoms can be truly mean-spirited, cruel and inhuman. It hurt to see how Joel Schumacher was dragged through the mud past 1997 just because he pissed off Batman fans, despite having made great movies such as The Lost Boys, Falling Down, The Client, A Time to Kill, and more.

It's possible to dislike something and remain objective, and a decent, respectful human being.

Online fandom was a mistake. Movies are movies. You either like 'em, our you don't. In case you don't, you move on and wait for other movies you might enjoy.

Sorry for my endless rant. The bottom line is this: stop making things personal. Movies are made by filmmakers for people to be enjoyed. You are part of the audience and your task is to watch the movies. It's okay not to like a movie, and you can elaborate on why you didn't like it. But for ****'s sake, stop making things personal. You're not entitled to get movies done the way you imagined them in your brain while wasting your time doing nothing productive. And if that's not enough, you can work hard to become a filmmaker. Then you can try and make your own decisions.

[Spud_Almighty]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

Turned the video off at around 6 minutes when he listed "things that don't play out well today" and included such stupid bullshit as "strong capable heroic male protagonists, traditional feminine beauty and sexual attractiveness, minority characters with even a hint of racial insensitivity, platonic same sex friendships" etc as things movies, and stories in general, can't do today.

You'd have to be a giant idiotic toad to think any of that is true.

You don't watch a lot of modern movies I take it. What he says is quite true. Check out MCU, Disney, the new wave of DC movies and nu-Bond as examples. Of course, I bet you'll deny that out of sheer ignorance.

[mwynn]

Ssdd.

If you are looking for a problem, generally you will find it. If not just make one up, some people will believe it, and then it becomes true right?

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

Turned the video off at around 6 minutes when he listed "things that don't play out well today" and included such stupid bullshit as "strong capable heroic male protagonists, traditional feminine beauty and sexual attractiveness, minority characters with even a hint of racial insensitivity, platonic same sex friendships" etc as things movies, and stories in general, can't do today.

That cannot happen, because the Hero has to have sex with every woman he sees. Yet at the same time all the Women should be virgins. CONFLICT!!!

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Guy87

See I have no argument with this, but the wording of this is miles away from "people need to grow up and watch films tailored to them".

His maturity levels and his interests are two seperate things (I'm going only on what you've said here, I haven't watched the video).

Someone can tell me they adore The Muppet Babies and I wouldn't call them immature. Someone else could get irrationally angry about how The Godfather Part III ruined their life and I'd think of them as a petulant child.

Yeah I think we’re pretty much on the same page. I should say I have no problem with people watching things intended for children, I enjoy Disney, Star Wars and Superhero films as much as the next person. But if you’re gonna throw around hyperbole like “ruined my childhood” or “insult to the fans” then I am gonna read it as being petulant.

I think people get “critical” confused with “cynicism”. When being critical is just as much, if not more so, as finding and articulating the value in something as much as where it went wrong. I remember the years ago when I joined this site and enjoying hearing and talking to different points of view on here, but along the line I realised it was becoming less what I thought and people twice, if not, three times my age dictating what I should and shouldn’t like. And that level of cynicism isn’t a good trait to have, it’s alienating and offputting. I’m thankful I realised it long ago and let negative things drop instead of clutching to them. When I watch the first minute of that video I’m just reminded how sad it is to get worked up over stuff you simply don’t like and it’s not fun, nor is it now insightful.

That’s probably why my post was hostile, because in the end, there comes a point when these things aren’t being made for you alone, and to treat it as a personal offence just does no favours. If people are finding themselves in this ruts they should just move on to find something more challenging and something worth championing.

[-JKR-]

Originally Posted by Foggy

Yeah I think we’re pretty much on the same page. I should say I have no problem with people watching things intended for children, I enjoy Disney, Star Wars and Superhero films as much as the next person. But if you’re gonna throw around hyperbole like “ruined my childhood” or “insult to the fans” then I am gonna read it as being petulant.

I think people get “critical” confused with “cynicism”. When being critical is just as much, if not more so, as finding and articulating the value in something as much as where it went wrong. I remember the years ago when I joined this site and enjoying hearing and talking to different points of view on here, but along the line I realised it was becoming less what I thought and people twice, if not, three times my age dictating what I should and shouldn’t like. And that level of cynicism isn’t a good trait to have, it’s alienating and offputting. I’m thankful I realised it long ago and let negative things drop instead of clutching to them. When I watch the first minute of that video I’m just reminded how sad it is to get worked up over stuff you simply don’t like and it’s not fun, nor is it now insightful.

That’s probably why my post was hostile, because in the end, there comes a point when these things aren’t being made for you alone, and to treat it as a personal offence just does no favours. If people are finding themselves in this ruts they should just move on to find something more challenging and something worth championing.

That's the evolution the discourse around movies has gone through unfortunately. Add to that that people now use tools such as RottenTomatoes to tell people whether or not they're right about something, and that people now seem to stick up more for IP, franchise coherence, profit and other such things which are best suited to the interiors of a sterile business office rather than forums (which used to be) fueled by the passion for films. I find it heartbreaking.

You hit the nail on the head. Many so called "online film fans" are not critical anymore, they're endlessly cynical.

The also seems to be a certain amount of envy involved, in regards to the people who make a living as filmmakers and artists, by people who are stuck with a "normal" (nothing bad with that) 9 to 5 job. You can sense it in how brutally vicious the attacks on industry professionals often are.

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by -JKR-

Sorry for my endless rant. The bottom line is this: stop making things personal. Movies are made by filmmakers for people to be enjoyed. You are part of the audience and your task is to watch the movies. It's okay not to like a movie, and you can elaborate on why you didn't like it. But for ****'s sake, stop making things personal. You're not entitled to get movies done the way you imagined them in your brain while wasting your time doing nothing productive. And if that's not enough, you can work hard to become a filmmaker. Then you can try and make your own decisions.

The creative process is very fulfilling. If Studio X is not producing things you like, get out there and do it yourself. Or find what is doing it right and stop letting it get canceled. People keep telling me The Expanse is great and better than X. You would not know it based on the way things are communicated.

[John1701D]

Originally Posted by mwynn

People keep telling me The Expanse is great and better than X. You would not know it based on the way things are communicated.

The Expanse is great.

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by Spud_Almighty

You don't watch a lot of modern movies I take it. What he says is quite true. Check out MCU, Disney, the new wave of DC movies and nu-Bond as examples. Of course, I bet you'll deny that out of sheer ignorance.

MCU:
-Shang-Chi was heroic and capable.
-Peter Parker was heroic and capable.
(I didn't bother with Eternals but two of the last three prove you wrong)
-Black Widow was treated the same as she was ten years ago as far outfits are concerned. Red Guardian was a comedic character, but if you need EVERY male in a movie to be the lead, and perfect, that's a you problem.

DC:
-Peacemaker isn't a hero, but that still very much counts. He's a damn good character. That whole cast is. There's also plenty of sex and violence, and great platonic friendships.
-Batman is Batman. Pretty damn sure he'll be capable in his movie.
-The Snyder Cut very clearly has well defined and capable male heroes, and again, Gal Gadot is a very pretty woman who can't act, and is here in all her pretty glory. She's also very Gal Gadot like in Wonder Woman 2.
-The Suicide Squad doesn't have many heroic male (or female) characters, but it's not about heroes now is it? They're still very well defined and capable.
-birds of Prey was about a female group of characters. All very pretty, and most certainly not wearing heavy wool sweaters. They were dressed like women. Femininity was absolutely on display.
-Shazam was heroic and capable. Especially for being a kid. Because he's a kid.
-Aquaman was heroic and Capable. Mera was very feminine.

Disney:
I don't even know what Disney movies you're referring to. Encanto? One of the female characters in that movies whole deal is that she's too pretty and perfect. Cruella? Yeah, Jaspar and Horace were oafs. Welcome to 1963. Mulan? I for the life of me don't remember what happened in that movie. It wasn't very good and I'm never going to watch it again. The animated ]classic still exists so why bother. Raya specifically had two girls and their platonic friendship at the center of the film, but even if they were gay... so what? Do you hate gay people or something?

Bond:
He's James Bond? Of course he's capable. If the series moving forward with the times and not treating women the way it did in the 60's is that upsetting to you, I could see why you don't like the Craig movies. The only thing I know about NTTD is that

[Show spoiler]bond dies

and that still doesn't make him incapable the entire two and a half hour run time,

[Show spoiler] nor even in however that happens. Death is a perfectly reasonable endpoint for characters, and can be heroic in how it's treated. I'm sure someone else can pick up the slack here as I did not watch the new Bond.

I fully don't believe James Bond was just tripping down stairs and choking on his cereal that whole movie, and it's how you act.


I think you want Gary Stu flawless characters, constantly objectified women, and no gays. That's the only thing that clicks here, because I just listed the most recent examples of everything you listed that I've seen, and you're just wrong about all of it. That's more than enough to show that whatever you believe is happening in the world isn't. I engaged this with good faith, and considering your incendiary attitude im not expecting that in return.

[-JKR-]

Originally Posted by mwynn

The creative process is very fulfilling. If Studio X is not producing things you like, get out there and do it yourself. Or find what is doing it right and stop letting it get canceled. People keep telling me The Expanse is great and better than X. You would not know it based on the way things are communicated.

It's kind of the same thing with the people who constantly complain about the lack of originality in movies, but then could not be caught even by mistake in a movie theater unless it's a Star Wars, MCU, etc. movie.

Other those other folks posting how movie theaters should die, as they are not going to risk getting Covid by going to theaters (understandable fear), but will then go out of their way to tell the world that they've seen Spider-Man No Way Home (which I loved , btw) three times in one day, and have now seen the movie 21 times in theaters.

The same theaters they wouldn't risk their health for.

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by -JKR-

It's the same with the people who constantly complain about the lack of originality in movies, but then could not be caught even by mistake in a movie theater unless it's a Star Wars, MCU, etc. movie.

Yeah I think I mentioned it in this thread, this site is an example where original movies go to die.

There are a few people who champion original movies, and they are still ignored.

[John1701D]

Are there really that many people that actually don't like or go to original movies? I've seen 31 movies theatrically in the last two years and 20 of them were original ideas.

[-JKR-]

Originally Posted by John1701D

Are there really that many people that actually don't like or go to original movies? I've seen 31 movies theatrically in the last two years and 20 of them were original ideas.

If more people actually made the effort to watch original movies (or even just diverse) in theaters instead of just writing online how studios are incapable of producing original movies anymore, the current movie landscape would be much different.

And as much as Americans like to think that International audiences eat up the "dumb boom boom movies" and blame them for what's popular now, the truth is that European audiences are actually more open to embracing a diverse slate of movies and genres in theaters nowadays, while 'murica's finest are busy talking about how so and so are better suited to streaming because those kinds of movies don't make much sense in theaters anymore.

But I'm probably way off topic and don't even make much sense rn, little stream of consciousness.

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by John1701D

Are there really that many people that actually don't like or go to original movies? I've seen 31 movies theatrically in the last two years and 20 of them were original ideas.

Would be hard to gauge since they do not talk about them. Just using this site as an example.

These threads.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=321933
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=348080
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=315071

These are examples of movies that will need the help of the audience to get attention. I doubt they will.

[-JKR-]

Originally Posted by mwynn

Would be hard to gauge since they do not talk about them. Just using this site as an example.

These threads.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=321933
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=348080
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=315071

These are examples of movies that will need the help of the audience to get attention. I doubt they will.

No Exit doesn't really NEED the audience's attention, though, considering how it's being dumped onto streaming.

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by -JKR-

No Exit doesn't really NEED the audience's attention, though, considering how it's being dumped onto streaming.

That is happening for the exact reason we are discussing, it would not sell tickets. It needs the attention for the next similar movie that cannot find an audience.

[-JKR-]

Originally Posted by mwynn

That is happening for the exact reason we are discussing, it would not sell tickets. It needs the attention for the next similar movie that cannot find an audience.

It's pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy, though.

The reason it wouldn't make an audience is that film fans have become increasingly cynical, as we've said. What adds fuel to the fire is that the mainstream media surrounding movies (websites such as Collider) are in the hands of the nerd/fandom type of audience, and that studios themselves are increasingly trying to sell the narrative that theaters will merely be a venue for big event movies.

So, the solution is not to support the fact that a movie such as No Exit lands on Disney's very own Hulu streaming service, but rather to support those movies which DID manage to somehow be released in theaters, indicating that you spend the money where your mouth is (if that makes sense).

Otherwise the message will be that they're doing the right thing by dumping most movies on streaming and only releasing big franchise movies in theaters.

If it were for me, we'd try to break that cycle and narrative.