DVD-A1UDCI or Oppo or other...

[btf1980]

Originally Posted by EWL5

<sarcasm> On the bright side, you get discrete MC audio from SACD, even if it's downconverted to 16-bit 44kHz! </sarcasm>

Even if I had the money I'd feel jipped buying the Denon. They already got some of it when I bought the 3800.

I honestly don't understand it. Again, I'm hoping that in the Japanese to English translation of the manual, someone messed up and it's a typo. This is a major f*ck up! I've never heard of an SACD player crippling the sampling rate of SACD...lol. What's the point?

[Brain Sturgeon]

Thanks for the input guys!

Originally Posted by btf1980

Ultimately, I think it comes down to two schools of thought. Those that think you should invest heavily in a source unit, and those that think it would be more prudent to invest in a prepro. I personally think that the point of the prepro is to be the workhorse in a system, let it handle all the processing. That's why it was bought in the first place. I just don't see the point of spending almost 5 large on a source unit, when something like a Classe SSP-800 or a Denon flagship prepro can be had for not much more at street prices. It seems like a no brainer to me.

Yep-- the more I think about it, the Denon is looking less attractive. I am planning on moving to an HDMI capable prepro in the future, and I'm not convinced that the DVD-A1UDCI's analog output will sound better than decoding in the prepro. This will be the million dollar question. If analog from the Denon truly sounds better than bitstream decoding by a AVP-A1HDCI or a Classé SSP-800 or what have you, then I will more strongly consider it.

The Denon's SACD performance would probably be one of its selling points, but I am not invested in SACD right now and there is the issue discussed below regarding what the Denon does with a SACD's signal. I don't really need DVD upscaling, Red Book CD playback, or DVDA playback with the Denon, as my Classé will do that. That pretty much leaves BD playback as the main reason for the player, and I think the Oppo will do that pretty much just as well as the Denon.

Originally Posted by Oddiophile

Brian,

You should have a read threw the "Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI" thread on the AVSforums. There mostly taking about digital jitter, but there is some good info on these two players.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1153911

Yup, I've been following that thread-- it's what actually got me thinking about the Denon...

Originally Posted by EWL5

I was confused by the title of this thread when I read "AVP". AVP is Denon's designation for a preamp. I think you meant DVD-A1UDCI universal BD player instead of the AVP-A1HDCI preamp.

Whoops! Thanks-- fixed the title.

Here are the pros/cons AFAIK:

Oppo BDP83

PROS
1) $4k cheaper
2) Plays DSD direct over HDMI or analog
3) ABT VRS performed better than the Realta (at least in 720p, don't know about 1080p) on the Spears and Munsil disk.
4) Great customer service
5) Timely firmware updates

CONS
1) Some users report occasional popping from SACD/DVD-A (should be fixed eventually by firmware).
2) Does not have any fancy upsampling for audio.
3) Cannot do Dolby ProLogic IIx matrixing for 7.1 systems.
4) Bass management limited to 80Hz crossover.
5) Limited mosquito NR on VRS

Denon A1UDCI

PROS
1) Built like a tank
2) No reported issues so far with SACD/DVD-A
3) Will do ProLogic IIx in player
4) Has jitter reduction/elimination circuit for BD HBR codecs when HDMI is used in conjunction with DenonLink4. (I consider jitter a non-issue for multichannel audio for movies)
5) Bass management more complete with more crossover choices
6) Excellent mosquito NR from Realta if required
7) AL32 32-bit upsampling should breathe new life into all audio, including CD's.

CONS
1) Expensive
2) Limited to 16-bit/44kHz PCM for SACD (it's all over the manual)
3) Will not stream DSD direct (see above)
4) Firmware updates have been slow
5) BD Live still not activated (too few owners at this point)

Did I miss anything?

Great list! Thanks for putting that together.

The SACD resampling is alarming. I really hope that is a screwup in the manual. Isn't the whole benefit of SACD the 1 bit DSD/2.82 MHz sampling? Why in the name of all that is holy would you convert this to 16 bit PCM/44 kHz? It's gotta be a mistake...

Anyways, I'm gonna pull the trigger on the Oppo-- I really don't think I can go wrong with this player at its price. I may reconsider the Denon when more owners chime in, but it's not looking to great at this point, particularly if the way it handles SACD is to output it as downconverted PCM.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Anyways, I'm gonna pull the trigger on the Oppo-- I really don't think I can go wrong with this player at its price. I may reconsider the Denon when more owners chime in, but it's not looking to great at this point, particularly if the way it handles SACD is to output it as downconverted PCM.

I think you're making the right move, especially if all you want is a digital transport. I also forgot to add that the Denon is also relatively slow compared to the Oppo, as reported by one owner in the AVS owner's thread.

[EWL5]

One minor correction on the capability of the A1UDCI. Although 16-bit 44kHz PCM is output over HDMI for SACD, it is possible to pass DSD over DenonLink if you connect the player to a receiver compatible with version 3 and above (version 2 will not pass DSD).

I'm sure the list of DenonLink3 and 4 AVR/prepros are quite small.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by EWL5

One minor correction on the capability of the A1UDCI. Although 16-bit 44kHz PCM is output over HDMI for SACD, it is possible to pass DSD over DenonLink if you connect the player to a receiver compatible with version 3 and above (version 2 will not pass DSD).

I'm sure the list of DenonLink3 and 4 AVR/prepros are quite small.

Ahhh, that makes more sense. So it downconverts SACD's output to 16/44 for multichannel HDMI output only. It should be able to output the original DSD signal either via the analog outs or via Denon Link. Of course, Denon Link works best with Denon's $499 1.5m Cat5 cable: http://www.usa.denon.com/productdetails/3429.asp

It will be interesting to hear from those few users of this player using Denon Link with let's say a AVP-A1HDCI (they seem a likely pair) whether it sounds better than an Oppo (or any other player including the DVD-A1UDCI) streaming BD material to the AVP-A1HDCI via HDMI, or the analog outs from the DVD-A1UDCI on BD material.

[solarrdadd]

Hey brain, i think we have all seen your setup and i'm sure most of us hope you go with the Oppo, cause, 1) It's the best player out there overall and nevermind the dollar amount hundreds, thousands more dosen't make a difference. 2) we would all like to know the a/v quality of the Oppo on a system like yours, especially the SACD & DVD-A. I have two recommendations for SACD "billy joel, the stranger" for DVD-A "elton john, goodbye yellow brick road" your obviously loaded so, go on, pick up the Oppo and let us know how it works with your big boy stuff!

Also, i really love the "peanuts/watchmen" avatar your sporting, where did you get it from; it's f'n cool!

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

Also, i really love the "peanuts/watchmen" avatar your sporting, where did you get it from; it's f'n cool!

Linus as the Comedian and Lucy as Silk Spectre II is a little disturbing though.

[zepherman]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

I think zepherman was thinking about this unit in another thread about the new Flagship Denon to go with his AVP-A1HDCI which would seem to be the ideal combo, but that was a while ago before Denon increased the MSRP to $4.5k.

I'm still planning on getting one, but it won't be until next month sometime.

For me the Denon is the perfect solution for my needs. Since I own an AVP-A1HDCI, the Denon Link connection will be ideal. And I will be utilizing the A1UDCI's 32 bit fully balanced DAC section for 2 channel (already have a pair of Audioquest XLR's).

Being able to view and listen to any disc on one machine is exactly what I need. And being that the player matches my AVP is just icing on the cake.

And even if this player is not the speed load equal to the Oppo and PS3, it will be plenty fast for me (especially using the quick start feature).

Once I get the A1, I will be able to take 3 pieces of gear out of my AV rack (Sony CDP-XA20ES, Yamaha S2300 universal player, and Sony BDP-S300). I was going to remove my Denon 2500BTCI also, but I've decided that I'm going to keep it for region B Blu-ray playback.

Early reports from people who just got their A1's are very good. All are unanimous about it's audio quality and picture quality, saying that its performance is stellar! And the build quality (all 42 lbs worth) is superb!

Once I do get mine I will be sure to report my impressions.


Seth

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by zepherman

I'm still planning on getting one, but it won't be until next month sometime.

For me the Denon is the perfect solution for my needs. Since I own an AVP-A1HDCI, the Denon Link connection will be ideal. And I will be utilizing the A1UDCI's 32 bit fully balanced DAC section for 2 channel (already have a pair of Audioquest XLR's).

Being able to view and listen to any disc on one machine is exactly what I need. And being that the player matches my AVP is just icing on the cake.

And even if this player is not the speed load equal to the Oppo and PS3, it will be plenty fast for me (especially using the quick start feature).

Once I get the A1, I will be able to take 3 pieces of gear out of my AV rack (Sony CDP-XA20ES, Yamaha S2300 universal player, and Sony BDP-S300). I was going to remove my Denon 2500BTCI also, but I've decided that I'm going to keep it for region B Blu-ray playback.

Early reports from people who just got their A1's are very good. All are unanimous about it's audio quality and picture quality, saying that its performance is stellar! And the build quality (all 42 lbs worth) is superb!

Once I do get mine I will be sure to report my impressions.


Seth

I don't know if the cheaper 4010 universal player would be a better fit for you but it sounds like you don't need the analog section of the A1UDCI, right?

The key question is if the 4010 has DenonLink4.

[zepherman]

Originally Posted by EWL5

I don't know if the cheaper 4010 universal player would be a better fit for you but it sounds like you don't need the analog section of the A1UDCI, right?

The key question is if the 4010 has DenonLink4.

Actually I will be using the analog section of the A1UDCI for 2 channel (CD, SACD) via balanced XLR. For multi-channel SACD/DVD-A I will use Denon Link, and for DVD and Blu-ray I will use HDMI.


Seth

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by zepherman

Actually I will be using the analog section of the A1UDCI for 2 channel (CD, SACD) via balanced XLR. For multi-channel SACD/DVD-A I will use Denon Link, and for DVD and Blu-ray I will use HDMI.


Seth

That's too bad. You'll be paying almost twice the price of the 4010 for the privilege of using those stereo XLR outputs. Here are the specs on the upcoming Denon 4010 player as posted by someone in AVS:

Denon DBP-4010UD
Price: £1899 (SRP)
Launch: October ’09 (TBC)
Color: Premium Silver, Black

Key Features :-
Universal Player Compatible BD, SACD, DVD Audio/Video, CD, Divx,WMA,MP3,JPEG
High quality audio and video
Super SVH (Suppress Vibration Hybrid) Mechanism
HDMI Clock Control via DENON LINK 4th (Reduce jitter and realize pure sound in combination with DENON AV Receiver)
High quality High-bit i/p scaler
Noise Reduction
DDSC HD Circuit
Advanced AL24 MULTI
Supports BD-Live (BD profile 2.0 compatible)
Ease of use
Easy remote controller to use (fine form of keys, Glow Key)
CI features
RS232C, Remote in/out, Remote lock function

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16534486

The 4010 will most likely retail for $1899 in the US.

[zepherman]

Originally Posted by EWL5

That's too bad. You'll be paying almost twice the price of the 4010 for the privilege of using those stereo XLR outputs. Here are the specs on the upcoming Denon 4010 player as posted by someone in AVS:

Denon DBP-4010UD
Price: £1899 (SRP)
Launch: October ’09 (TBC)
Color: Premium Silver, Black

Key Features :-
Universal Player Compatible BD, SACD, DVD Audio/Video, CD, Divx,WMA,MP3,JPEG
High quality audio and video
Super SVH (Suppress Vibration Hybrid) Mechanism
HDMI Clock Control via DENON LINK 4th (Reduce jitter and realize pure sound in combination with DENON AV Receiver)
High quality High-bit i/p scaler
Noise Reduction
DDSC HD Circuit
Advanced AL24 MULTI
Supports BD-Live (BD profile 2.0 compatible)
Ease of use
Easy remote controller to use (fine form of keys, Glow Key)
CI features
RS232C, Remote in/out, Remote lock function

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16534486

The 4010 will most likely retail for $1899 in the US.

Yes the 4010 is going to be a very nice universal player at a much lower price point. But for me I'm willing to spend the extra on the A1UDCI because I want the best of the best. I know that I'm not going to be using all 8 analog channels (only the 2 channel XLR), and I'm cool with that.

I am so looking forward to listening to CD's, and 2 channel SACD's through the A1's 32 bit DAC's. And only the A1 will have them, the 4010 is 24 bit.

Also the A1 uses the same sophisticated transport as their flagship stand alone CD/SACD player, the DCD-SX. The 4010 does not. This transport is so well designed that even McIntosh uses it in their reference CD/SACD player the MCD500.

So for me having the fully balanced XLR's, the SVH transport Mechanism, 32 bit DAC's, Realta video processing, Denon Link 3rd and 4th, twin HDMI outs, backlit remote, and superior build quality, are all very important factors for me.


Seth

[Woody]

Hello Brain.

I just wanted to give you my input. I had never experienced an Oppo product, and because of the OVERWHELMING positive info on the company and their products (also because of my numerous SACDs, and desire to have more rack space) I took the dive and bought the 83.

It replaces my Sony 9000ES for SACDs and numerous blu-ray players I have used in my system.

To be totally honest the player ranks up there with some of the BEST purchases I have ever made. It joins the Sony 9000ES as my favorite pieces of electronic equipment I have owned.

The responsiveness (MUCH faster than any BR player I have used), the build quality, the price, the flexibility, and above all the performance is fantastic. The DVD upscaling is awesome (top notch). The 2ch SACD performance is every bit as good as my 9000ES is/was. Open, airy, all of the "reviewer adjectives" you can think of.

I can imagine something like the Denon or the Pio 09 would perform better on analog performances, but if you are seriously contemplating upgrading you pre-amp, I think it is an absolute no-brainer.

Oh, did I mention their customer service? Just unheard of in the modern CE world. Just great.

Did I mention the presentation of the product?

Here is my take on that:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=42

I know many will think that presentation is silly, but IMO if a company takes this type of care and pays this much attention to detail in their presentation it tends to speak to the effort that they put into the product itself.

[Brain Sturgeon]

z-man: I'll look forward to hearing about your experiences with the A1UDCI and A1HDCI combination. I'm interested to see if you'll note any differences in BD multichannel audio when streaming via HDMI or Denon Link, given the claim of jitter reduction with DL. I'd also be interested if multichannel analog out from the A1UDCI sounds any better/worse than bitstreaming to the AVP.

I've still got the AVP on my radar, although I am in no hurry to make a switch. Classé's SSP-800 is also on my list, and I'll have to arrange a listen to that piece in the near future.

Thanks for your input Woody. I also came to the conclusion that the Oppo is pretty much a can't miss product for me. My BDP-83 should be here in the next day or two. I don't doubt that I will enjoy it quite a bit.

[EWL5]

Don't know if you heard but the hottest news today is that the Oppo now has a region free hack:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=608

[zepherman]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

z-man: I'll look forward to hearing about your experiences with the A1UDCI and A1HDCI combination. I'm interested to see if you'll note any differences in BD multichannel audio when streaming via HDMI or Denon Link, given the claim of jitter reduction with DL. I'd also be interested if multichannel analog out from the A1UDCI sounds any better/worse than bitstreaming to the AVP.

I've still got the AVP on my radar, although I am in no hurry to make a switch. Classé's SSP-800 is also on my list, and I'll have to arrange a listen to that piece in the near future.

Thanks for your input Woody. I also came to the conclusion that the Oppo is pretty much a can't miss product for me. My BDP-83 should be here in the next day or two. I don't doubt that I will enjoy it quite a bit.

Once I get my A1UDCI I'll be sure to do some comparisons between using HDMI and Denon Link. I will also compare the sound quality between using the analog outs for multichannel as compared to bit-streaming to the AVP.

I'm really anxious to get this player and start using all of its way cool features.

Yes, both the AVP and the Classe' SSP-800 are definitely both excellent choices. Back when I was looking for a pre/pro to replace my Sunfire TGIII, I also had the Classe' on my list as a choice. But ultimately it was the Denon AVP that won me over due to all it's features, functions, and connectivity. The SSP-800, while definitely a very fine unit, was (is) just not as fully featured as the AVP (or Anthem D2v).


Seth

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

You may wish to get the Oppo and have Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company try his hand at modifying the unit to perform much better than stock.

You could also get an upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC from the Upgrade Company to perform much better still with CD. This could be used with the Oppo or with an upgraded Denon 5910 which I also highly recommend. You could get a used Denon 5910 off of Audiogon and then also have Dave do the mods to both. The 5910 could be used for SACD and DVD-A as well as CD.

Rich

Hi Rich,

I think you might be right about upgrading the Oppo; it has all the right ingredients. It plays all the discs, has great decoding performance, superb de-interlacing and scaling, and a complete set of interfaces and controls. But most enthusiasts reckon that while its video performance is as good as it gets, audio leaves something to be desired against the best. The Oppo seems to have all the right hardware, in a simple, well-made, well-organised and fair-priced unit that's ripe for intelligent improvement.

However, there's no mention of Oppo on the upgrade company website, even though all the enthusiasts are making beelines towards it. Rich, have you got any idea of whether David has upgraded any Oppos BDPs yet? I don't think the BDP-83 is likely to compare with the A1UDCI, especially as I think the analogue connections are what matter, but I suspect the upgraded one might.

Cheers, Nick

[Zeus]

Hi Guys,

I've been mullling over this question for the last 2 months. My primary priority is PQ with both blu ray and upscaled DVD. Also, Oppo is not an option in my part of the world.

Hence i did a lot of research on the video chip and concluded that Realta and Qdeo are pretty much top of the tree, with Realta being slightly better if you really wanna nitpick. Profile 2.0 wasn't a deal breaker for me by itself but when you couple it with the price tag, i was really torn between the Denon 3800 or the Pio LX-91 (09FD in the US). The only thing dragging the 3800 down was it's lack of profile 2.0, it's slow speed, and it's high price tag despite all this. The only thing dragging the LX-91 down was that its not a Denon!!

So it came down to either waiting for the Denon 3800 replacement or going for the LX-91 now. Information available on the upcoming Denon players suggested that only the A1UD will have the Realta chip, and the 2010 below it will have an ABT chip, so actually there isn't a "true" replacement for the 3800 anytime soon (at least in terms of video chip, which is a priority for me).

So i auditioned both the 3800 and the LX-91 (to compare the video chips essentially) for PQ and found both outstanding. Going with the price value equation and suppressing my love for Denon, i pulled the trigger on the LX-91. Have just had it for a week and loving it so far. But after checking out this thread, i'm confused once again. One of my friend's is willing to take the LX-91 off me for a great price, so i can potentially "undo" this deal if it is, indeed, a mistake. Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Hi Guys,

I've been mullling over this question for the last 2 months. My primary priority is PQ with both blu ray and upscaled DVD. Also, Oppo is not an option in my part of the world.

Hence i did a lot of research on the video chip and concluded that Realta and Qdeo are pretty much top of the tree, with Realta being slightly better if you really wanna nitpick. Profile 2.0 wasn't a deal breaker for me by itself but when you couple it with the price tag, i was really torn between the Denon 3800 or the Pio LX-91 (09FD in the US). The only thing dragging the 3800 down was it's lack of profile 2.0, it's slow speed, and it's high price tag despite all this. The only thing dragging the LX-91 down was that its not a Denon!!

So it came down to either waiting for the Denon 3800 replacement or going for the LX-91 now. Information available on the upcoming Denon players suggested that only the A1UD will have the Realta chip, and the 2010 below it will have an ABT chip, so actually there isn't a "true" replacement for the 3800 anytime soon (at least in terms of video chip, which is a priority for me).

So i auditioned both the 3800 and the LX-91 (to compare the video chips essentially) for PQ and found both outstanding. Going with the price value equation and suppressing my love for Denon, i pulled the trigger on the LX-91. Have just had it for a week and loving it so far. But after checking out this thread, i'm confused once again. One of my friend's is willing to take the LX-91 off me for a great price, so i can potentially "undo" this deal if it is, indeed, a mistake. Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

In my Spears and Munsil tests b/w my 3800 (Realta) and the Oppo BDP83 (ABT VRS), the Oppo came out ahead. Note that this is using 720p output. I would imagine 1080p would have similar performance but the fact that the Oppo outdoes the Denon over 720p tells me the brute strength of the ABT VRS chip. From my experience, you are better off waiting for that Denon 2010 player, especially if you have a modern AVR/prepro that can do all the decoding and don't need a great analog audio section in the player. The only thing the VRS chip gives up is mosquito noise reduction, which video purists won't touch anyway.

I say wait for the Denon 2010.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Hi Rich,

I think you might be right about upgrading the Oppo; it has all the right ingredients. It plays all the discs, has great decoding performance, superb de-interlacing and scaling, and a complete set of interfaces and controls. But most enthusiasts reckon that while its video performance is as good as it gets, audio leaves something to be desired against the best. The Oppo seems to have all the right hardware, in a simple, well-made, well-organised and fair-priced unit that's ripe for intelligent improvement.

However, there's no mention of Oppo on the upgrade company website, even though all the enthusiasts are making beelines towards it. Rich, have you got any idea of whether David has upgraded any Oppos BDPs yet? I don't think the BDP-83 is likely to compare with the A1UDCI, especially as I think the analogue connections are what matter, but I suspect the upgraded one might.

Cheers, Nick

Nick,

Dave has yet to see or work on the Oppo players. But, he is quite confident that he can get it to perform exceedingly well. As to the analog connections, Dave normally changes (1) pair of $130 WBT NextGen Silver RCA jacks on the front L&R 2 channel outputs of his players.

Rich