DVD-A1UDCI or Oppo or other...

[Brain Sturgeon]

I've been thinking of replacing my Panasonic DMP-BD50 recently-- although it has been an excellent performer, it's not the fastest thing in the world, and the HDMI handshaking with the unit is kinda iffy. I've had some issues with handshaking between the Panny and my front projectors when switching from 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 which I never had with my PS3 or DMP-BD10. It doesn't seem to play well with my HDMI switch. Plus it doesn't do SACD or DVDA-- not a huge deal since I use my Classé for DVDA, but SACD would be a nice addition.

In considering new players, the new Oppo is "universal" and looks like a winner and I just got an email invite to purchase one. I was about to pull the trigger when I came across a discussion of "high end" BD players (Pioneer's BDP-09FD, Denon's AVP-A1HDCI) versus the Oppo on AVS. Although pretty much everyone thinks that the video output will be identical between units, the thought was that these might be better for those who use the player's D to A converters/analogue outputs instead of HDMI for LPCM or bitstream. Anyways, the usual discussion of "is it really worth it" and "is there really a difference" cropped up, and the topic is pretty muddy right now. I don't think I would consider the Elite, since it's not "universal", so that leaves it between the Oppo and the Denon.

Anyways, I'm having some second thoughts about the Oppo, although given its price point, I don't think I can lose. But part of me is thinking maybe I should just skip it and go for the gusto as I don't think anyone thinks the Denon will be any worse than the Oppo, and it might just be better. $4k better? I don't know... I guess that's why I started this thread.

So, how about it? Any AVP-A1HDCI owners out there to comment? I think zepherman was thinking about this unit in another thread about the new Flagship Denon to go with his AVP-A1HDCI which would seem to be the ideal combo, but that was a while ago before Denon increased the MSRP to $4.5k.

Thanks for your thoughts in advance!

[bigred7078]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

I've been thinking of replacing my Panasonic DMP-BD50 recently-- although it has been an excellent performer, it's not the fastest thing in the world, and the HDMI handshaking with the unit is kinda iffy. I've had some issues with handshaking between the Panny and my front projectors when switching from 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 which I never had with my PS3 or DMP-BD10. It doesn't seem to play well with my HDMI switch. Plus it doesn't do SACD or DVDA-- not a huge deal since I use my Classé for DVDA, but SACD would be a nice addition.

In considering new players, the new Oppo is "universal" and looks like a winner and I just got an email invite to purchase one. I was about to pull the trigger when I came across a discussion of "high end" BD players (Pioneer's BDP-09FD, Denon's AVP-A1HDCI) versus the Oppo on AVS. Although pretty much everyone thinks that the video output will be identical between units, the thought was that these might be better for those who use the player's D to A converters/analogue outputs instead of HDMI for LPCM or bitstream. Anyways, the usual discussion of "is it really worth it" and "is there really a difference" cropped up, and the topic is pretty muddy right now. I don't think I would consider the Elite, since it's not "universal", so that leaves it between the Oppo and the Denon.

Anyways, I'm having some second thoughts about the Oppo, although given its price point, I don't think I can lose. But part of me is thinking maybe I should just skip it and go for the gusto as I don't think anyone thinks the Denon will be any worse than the Oppo, and it might just be better. $4k better? I don't know... I guess that's why I started this thread.

So, how about it? Any AVP-A1HDCI owners out there to comment? I think zepherman was thinking about this unit in another thread about the new Flagship Denon to go with his AVP-A1HDCI which would seem to be the ideal combo, but that was a while ago before Denon increased the MSRP to $4.5k.

Thanks for your thoughts in advance!

my rep showed us one and it definately is a tank of a unit. Excellent quality in and out. But is it truly worth literally thousands more than an Oppo....no. Its a status player thats all. No doubt it will have a better d/a section on it, but still. If your wanting something that good i would get the Oppo and find a great external DAC for like $2000 and you're still ALOT less than the Denon.

[Brain Sturgeon]

I agree that it's going to be difficult to justify a $4k difference solely on the basis of the D to A performance. Your suggestion of just getting a good outboard D to A converter is an interesting one, but AFAIK, there isn't a specific, high quality one that I know of that will process multichannel HD codecs-- these are usually built into the receiver or prepro. I guess it may come down to where the better D to A performance is, in the player or in the receiver/prepro, taking into account any degradation (if any) that might occur with bitstreaming.

One simple solution seems to be to just get a high end prepro and then bitstream everything to it and be done with it, in which case the Oppo will probably bitstream as well as anything out there. However, I have been bitten in the hind end by the phrase "this unit is future-proofed" multiple times and would hate to drop a good sum of cash on another high end prepro just to see it become outdated in a year or two when the next "must have" input connector (i.e. next gen HDMI, or HD-SDI, or ?) or codec or speaker setup (height or width presence speakers) becomes mainstream. It almost seems simpler to just keep a high quality prepro that does all the basics and change out the source components instead.

From searching on the net, I don't think there are going to be very many owners of the new Denon out there; so I'll probably go ahead and pull the trigger on the Oppo for now. I will reconsider the Denon when more owners can chime in on their experience with it.

[jomari]

ive considered oppo to be a very credible company, thus me starting the oppo thread. in regards to the quality of their components build, its far better than what we have available in the mass market. of course, with premium players out there, comes premium cost. and considering that oppos primary product are dvd players, they have it going on so to speak. id also vouch for their customer services, which i highly regard.

can i put the oppo against the premium players? im not quite certain due to its price point. but i can vouch it would give one helluva fight.

[naturephoto1]

Hi Brain,

You may wish to get the Oppo and have Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company try his hand at modifying the unit to perform much better than stock.

You could also get an upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC from the Upgrade Company to perform much better still with CD. This could be used with the Oppo or with an upgraded Denon 5910 which I also highly recommend. You could get a used Denon 5910 off of Audiogon and then also have Dave do the mods to both. The 5910 could be used for SACD and DVD-A as well as CD.

I just had the latest work done by Dave Schulte for my Denon 5910. It is a superb sounding CD, SACD, and DVD-A player. These machines sound better than any stock player that we have compared them to including 2 box Esoteric ($40,000) and EMM Labs ($20,000). Dave was shocked by the performance of my machine after the additional modifications this past weekend; he thought that it was one of the best sounding modified machines that he had ever heard. I can not get mine to work through HDMI to my upgraded Onkyo PR-SC885 (I believe handshake issues) but I use it in through analog, coaxial, and optical connections as well as with an upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC for even better CD performance. CD performance with the upgraded Denon 5910 and the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC is outstanding.

Rich

[btf1980]

IMO, I would go for the Oppo. My reasoning is this. Ultimately, you will upgrade your prepro in the future. I view the Denon to be a waste for those using HDMI, since they will most likely be bitstreaming directly to their prepro. From that standpoint, it is no better than the Oppo. The D to A conversion in the player is irrelevant in that scenario. Furthermore, the Oppo can do DSD over HDMI, another plus considering the price difference between it and the Denon.

The Denon is for people who have no plan on upgrading to a modern day prepro and would prefer to use analog outs for good and don't want to bother with an HDMI prepro at all. If that is your position, then that would make sense. If not, I would pocket the 4K and stick with the Oppo.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by btf1980

IMO, I would go for the Oppo. My reasoning is this. Ultimately, you will upgrade your prepro in the future. I view the Denon to be a waste for those using HDMI, since they will most likely be bitstreaming directly to their prepro. From that standpoint, it is no better than the Oppo. The D to A conversion in the player is irrelevant in that scenario. Furthermore, the Oppo can do DSD over HDMI, another plus considering the price difference between it and the Denon.

The Denon is for people who have no plan on upgrading to a modern day prepro and would prefer to use analog outs for good and don't want to bother with an HDMI prepro at all. If that is your position, then that would make sense. If not, I would pocket the 4K and stick with the Oppo.

Has anyone gone to the trouble of listening to SACD over HDMI versus over analog cables? I personally do not have the ability with my equipment. I have however been able to compare CD over HDMI, Coax, and analog cables. My experience has been that CD over analog cables in my system sounded better followed by coax and finally HDMI.

So I am wondering what others have found. I am beginning to think that HDMI is of great convenience but not necessarily the be all to end all for audio reproduction. Anyone want to do some testing?

Rich

[Oddiophile]

Brian,

You should have a read threw the "Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI" thread on the AVSforums. There mostly taking about digital jitter, but there is some good info on these two players.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1153911

[gonk]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Has anyone gone to the trouble of listening to SACD over HDMI versus over analog cables? I personally do not have the ability with my equipment. I have however been able to compare CD over HDMI, Coax, and analog cables. My experience has been that CD over analog cables in my system sounded better followed by coax and finally HDMI.

So I am wondering what others have found. I am beginning to think that HDMI is of great convenience but not necessarily the be all to end all for audio reproduction. Anyone want to do some testing?

Rich

I haven't listened at all in the last few days (just recovering from a power outage), but during my beta testing I compared analog output to HDMI output using an Onkyo 885. I expected HDMI to win fairly comfortably, but was surprised to find that it was easy to leave the 83's analog output engaged. The analog section isn't going to be the equal of a $4500+ player, but it will get a lot closer than you'd expect.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by gonk

I haven't listened at all in the last few days (just recovering from a power outage), but during my beta testing I compared analog output to HDMI output using an Onkyo 885. I expected HDMI to win fairly comfortably, but was surprised to find that it was easy to leave the 83's analog output engaged. The analog section isn't going to be the equal of a $4500+ player, but it will get a lot closer than you'd expect.

My upgraded Onkyo 885 has stellar analog performance. But, that is one of the areas that was targeted for the modifications to the unit.

Rich

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Has anyone gone to the trouble of listening to SACD over HDMI versus over analog cables? I personally do not have the ability with my equipment. I have however been able to compare CD over HDMI, Coax, and analog cables. My experience has been that CD over analog cables in my system sounded better followed by coax and finally HDMI.

So I am wondering what others have found. I am beginning to think that HDMI is of great convenience but not necessarily the be all to end all for audio reproduction. Anyone want to do some testing?

Rich

I am planning to add analog cables out from my Oppo. I do listen to SACD's with the player via HDMI set to DSD out and my receiver set to DSD in for SACD's and it sounds incredible. I do want to get analog not because I think it will sound better than HDMI but to open my options just in case it does. When I do get the analog setup i'll give an update.

[Trix]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Has anyone gone to the trouble of listening to SACD over HDMI versus over analog cables? I personally do not have the ability with my equipment. I have however been able to compare CD over HDMI, Coax, and analog cables. My experience has been that CD over analog cables in my system sounded better followed by coax and finally HDMI (emphasis added).

So I am wondering what others have found. I am beginning to think that HDMI is of great convenience but not necessarily the be all to end all for audio reproduction. Anyone want to do some testing?

Rich

I'm too young (sorry, inexperienced ) to have dealt with SACD, or DVD-A. From reading the part of your post that I bolded, however, I would assume that the DAC in your player is simply superior to either the DAC in the upgraded receiver, or the available digital pathways from player to receiver. Although admittedly being in a class about 70 categories below yours, I do concur. Though I am comparing CD through to AVR, I definitly find that the DACs in my Marantz 4001 do a much better job before sending an analog signal to an analog input of my HK 354 (neither have been modified), as compared to when I output optical from the Marantz into the HK, and use the HK's DACs.

Now, I agree; the DAC in the HK are, comparitavely speaking, nearly crap. However, the Marantz 4001 is by no means a "high end" CD player, but its DACs still put the HK's to shame. What I've concluded, in my own process, is that standalone decoding will outperform AVR decoding in most circumstances. Whether or not this goes beyond DAC performance, I have no idea, nor am I on a quest to find out.

As for Brain's so-called, dilemma, I would also tend to side with the Oppo, if only for the immense price difference. Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the Denon is indeed a superior unit, and if price is not an object, it may be less expensive to buy the Denon now, than to buy the Oppo now, and then buy the Denon in 2 months, because it turns out to be worth it. Just my compounded thoughts.

[btf1980]

Ultimately, I think it comes down to two schools of thought. Those that think you should invest heavily in a source unit, and those that think it would be more prudent to invest in a prepro. I personally think that the point of the prepro is to be the workhorse in a system, let it handle all the processing. That's why it was bought in the first place. I just don't see the point of spending almost 5 large on a source unit, when something like a Classe SSP-800 or a Denon flagship prepro can be had for not much more at street prices. It seems like a no brainer to me.

[gonk]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

My upgraded Onkyo 885 has stellar analog performance. But, that is one of the areas that was targeted for the modifications to the unit.

Rich

Oh, I agree - my stock 885 sounds quite good. That's why I didn't expect the BDP-83 to be able to match it (not when there's so much else shoved under the hood and the price is $500). Both sound really good, and if I had a less acoustically well-behaved space I suspect Audyssey would at some point give the 885 an edge over the 83.

[gandley]

Denon 4010 coming soon, so maybe one to keep an eye on

[EWL5]

I was confused by the title of this thread when I read "AVP". AVP is Denon's designation for a preamp. I think you meant DVD-A1UDCI universal BD player instead of the AVP-A1HDCI preamp.

Here are the pros/cons AFAIK:

Oppo BDP83

PROS
1) $4k cheaper
2) Plays DSD direct over HDMI or analog
3) ABT VRS performed better than the Realta (at least in 720p, don't know about 1080p) on the Spears and Munsil disk.
4) Great customer service
5) Timely firmware updates
6) Fast as the PS3 (and sometimes faster!)

CONS
1) Some users report occasional popping from SACD/DVD-A (should be fixed eventually by firmware).
2) Does not have any fancy upsampling for audio.
3) Cannot do Dolby ProLogic IIx matrixing for 7.1 systems.
4) Bass management limited to 80Hz crossover.
5) Limited mosquito NR on VRS

Denon A1UDCI

PROS
1) Built like a tank
2) No reported issues so far with SACD/DVD-A
3) Will do ProLogic IIx in player
4) Has jitter reduction/elimination circuit for BD HBR codecs when HDMI is used in conjunction with DenonLink4. (I consider jitter a non-issue for multichannel audio for movies)
5) Bass management more complete with more crossover choices
6) Excellent mosquito NR from Realta if required
7) AL32 32-bit upsampling should breathe new life into all audio, including CD's.

CONS
1) Expensive
2) Limited to 16-bit/44kHz PCM for SACD over HDMI. Edit: Native DSD over DenonLink is possible with DenonLink 3 and above AVR/prepros.
3) Will not stream DSD direct (see above)
4) Firmware updates have been slow
5) BD Live still not activated (too few owners at this point)
6) Early reports are that it is relatively slow. PS3/Oppo have set quite the benchmark for speed.

Did I miss anything?

[btf1980]

Originally Posted by EWL5

2) Limited to 16-bit/44kHz for SACD (it's all over the manual)
3) Will not stream DSD direct

You've got to be kidding me!!

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by btf1980

You've got to be kidding me!!

I kid you not. DL the manual and go to page 16. It is on the lower left as *2:

"Super Audio CD audio signals are output at 44.1 kHz 16-bit."

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-A1UDCI-OM-E_005.pdf

Pg 26 spells out the fact that the output from HDMI is PCM for SACD.

[btf1980]

Originally Posted by EWL5

I kid you not. DL the manual and go to page 16. It is on the lower left as *2.

http://usa.denon.com/DVD-A1UDCI-OM-E_005.pdf

Wow, I truly hope that is a typo because that defeats the purpose of SACD. That should automatically cross this player off the list of anyone that cares about SACD playback if that is the case. It's essentially a redbook CD player.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by btf1980

Wow, I truly hope that is a typo because that defeats the purpose of SACD. That should automatically cross this player off the list of anyone that cares about SACD playback if that is the case. It's essentially a redbook CD player.

<sarcasm> On the bright side, you get discrete MC audio from SACD, even if it's downconverted to 16-bit 44kHz! </sarcasm>

Even if I had the money I'd feel jipped buying the Denon. They already got some of it when I bought the 3800.