Whats Too Loud?(Danger Of Blowing Speakers?)

[Johnny Vinyl]

I have yet to adjust the speaker levels from the receiver. The only thing I do is run the YPAO whenever I change my speaker positioning. Is there a specific reason as to why I should consider adjusting the speaker levels? It sounds pretty good to me and I don't understand what the gain would be in doing so.

The loudest I have ever had my receiver's setting is -7dB and I only stopped there as I thought the Cops would surely be at my door in minutes. I could surely have gone lower, but I'm a considerate guy. For the record...at that level there was no strain from either my AVR or my speakers.

Also, please explain this "reference" level to me. Does that mean I should listen to a 0db signal to obtain a volume that is as the movie recommends? I don't understand this.

John (The Analog Dog)

[Driver_King]

John, you should be fine with leaving your speakers at their current level. However, I am a little worried about what you just said. I'm sure you've calibrated your system with an SPL meter at least and have accurately adjusted the speaker distances and have messed with the equalizers and tone controls, right? I would consult your receiver's manual for detailed instructions on adjusting more complex settings...

[sapiendut]

THX Reference Level is the average loudness of about 75 dB. Not necessarily the loudness you'd get at 0 dB gain on your receiver.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by Driver_King

John, you should be fine with leaving your speakers at their current level. However, I am a little worried about what you just said. I'm sure you've calibrated your system with an SPL meter at least and have accurately adjusted the speaker distances and have messed with the equalizers and tone controls, right? I would consult your receiver's manual for detailed instructions on adjusting more complex settings...

Hi DK.,

Long time no talk...how have you been?

My speaker distances are right on and I have messed with the tone controls and equalizer settings....but only ever so slightly. I have, much to your , not ever used or incorporated an SPL meter.

If you and BD or any of our other resident experts can guide me as to the aural benefits of implementing an SPL adjustment, then I'm all ears.

John

[Driver_King]

I was gone for three weeks in Europe and got back last Friday night. I'm doing very well. Calibrating your system using the pink noise test tones (should be a button on your receiver's remote) and ensuring every speaker is calibrated to 75 dB can much improve panning, directionality, blending, and sound staging of your system (maybe).

[sapiendut]

1. from your seating position, make sure that all speakers are at the exact same level of loudness. This way, the soundfield you're listening will be as intended by the mixing engineer.
2. make sure all speakers "arrive" at your ears at the exact same time. Set the delay of the speaker FURTHEST from you at 0ms. Measure the distance delta (difference) for the other speakers. For each foot, set about 1 ms.
eg: if your furthest speaker is 10 ft, and your nearest speaker is 1 ft away from you, set the nearest speaker's delay to 9ft x 1ms = 9ms. Repeat for all your speakers.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by John72953

Hi DK.,

Long time no talk...how have you been?

My speaker distances are right on and I have messed with the tone controls and equalizer settings....but only ever so slightly. I have, much to your , not ever used or incorporated an SPL meter.

If you and BD or any of our other resident experts can guide me as to the aural benefits of implementing an SPL adjustment, then I'm all ears.

John

If you are an old geezer like me, you do need an SPL meter.

An SPL meter gives you several benefits:

1. It is a manual way of checking the settings of your speakers. When you use the built-in calibration program of your receiver, you are allowing a robot to do your job. My nature tells me that I should not trust a computer program.
2. If you are using an older receiver that does not have an auto calibration program, an SPL is an absolute must.
3. An SPL meter allows you to adjust your system to your preference as opposed to reference. Many people complain about the difficulty of hearing dialog in new movies. An SPL meter allows you to check the settings and adjust them as required.
4. The auto calibration programs uses pink noise to adjust the speakers and the subwoofer(s). That is not exactly the best way. To properly calibrate a subwoofer, you need test tones and an SPL meter.
5. If you use 2 or 4 subwoofers, you need to adjust the level of each subwoofer relative to your listening position. The auto calibration programs cannot do that.
6. In a 2.1 setup with a two-channel preamp or receiver, you need an SPL meter to adjust the level of the subwoofer with respect to the speakers. That is what I did in my 2-channel room.
7. If you are a crazy tweaker like me and change things regularly, an SPL meter is lot faster and quicker than running the calibration program. Furthermore, you can measure the change in the sound level as result of a tweak with an SPL meter.
8. You can measure the frequency response of your speakers in your room with an SPL meter and test tones. You can also equalize the sound to a flatter response with an SPL meter and an equalizer.
9. For safety reasons in the work requirement, the government requires that you measure the noise level in a work environment so that the workers can protect their ears properly.
10. For $50, it is a worthwhile and fun gadget. You can play with it as a toy.

Read the sticky thread that I mentioned before for further information.

[Hammie]

+1 for the SPL meter.

I'm just sad I lost mine. Now I need to buy a new one. The question of the day is do I want analog or digital. Oh, the decisions we must face as a prisoner to this hobby.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

+1 for the SPL meter.

I'm just sad I lost mine. Now I need to buy a new one. The question of the day is do I want analog or digital. Oh, the decisions we must face as a prisoner to this hobby.

Get the digital lou. I think they are easier to read, and BD recommends the digital as well, and I trust his recommendations. I have no idea how I used to listen to my set-up without my SPL meter, its an awesome tool IMO!

[DragonSarc]

Originally Posted by ShockWave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DP89iMe0BY

Don't try this afer 500 plays you WILL blow your speakers!

classic even the CD version!!!!

[DragonSarc]

when you start yelling instead of just saying something in a regular voice at somebody beside you

[Beta Man]

The only time I really "Push" it, is when I'm listening to 2-channel. I set up the room to contain as much sound as possible, and it's on the 3rd floor and my wife still complains that I'm listening too loud while she's in the 1st floor kitchen......

At these levels, my system is no where near in danger (as I've flexed their muscles many times before, and no clipping or distortion happens)

With that said, I can't imagine anyone damaging a speaker while watching a movie..... you would really have to be watching at an uncomfortable level (painful perhaps)

You should be able to tell if you're at a sustained level that may cause damage.

[McLoki]

Originally Posted by John72953

Also, please explain this "reference" level to me. Does that mean I should listen to a 0db signal to obtain a volume that is as the movie recommends? I don't understand this.

John (The Analog Dog)

What is reference level? - A decent answer comes from here....

Long story short - it is an arbitrary number that people set their home theaters to. (reference level is the volume level when your AVR is set to 0) It allows you to listen to a movie at -15 in your house with your home theater and have it the exact same volume as -15 is at my house with my home theater.

I usually listen to most movies at -15 to -20. (-25 late night) I typically demo at -10 or so.

Most theaters will not be able to hit 0 without clipping. (usually due to the 115db peak capability required from the subwoofer)

A few words on "Reference Level"

Before we start talking about the pieces and parts, we first need to take a quick refresher on the concept of "Reference Level", as you are going to be hearing that term quite a bit in the coming paragraphs. Simply stated, Reference Level is a standard, known, predictable and reproducible playback volume level. When movie sound tracks are crafted, they are done so on systems which are locked at this level. The sound artist does not play around with a big volume knob when doing his/her work. If the sound artist wants something to be loud, they make that sound loud within the sound track. When they want something to be soft, they make that element soft within the sound track. Movie theaters set their playback level by the exact same rules, so when the movie is shown, you hear EXACTLY what the sound artist heard when they were making the piece. Loud, soft, in-between, it's all there, and no one touches the master volume knob over the course of a two-hour movie.

To achieve THX certification, components must play at this reference level without breaking, distorting, buzzing, rattling or any other distracting effects.

Reference level is by any definition, objective or subjective, quite loud. It basically mirrors the dynamic range of the studio system, which in the case of all movie sound tracks, is 105 dB. Any single channel of the system is calibrated to play 0 dB FSD (the loudest sound the sound track can contain) at 105 dB (115 dB for the LFE channel). While that is really, REALLY loud, its important to remember that there is 105 dB of dynamic range and the artist can put a sound at any level they want. So while a system's volume may be set to reference level, dialogue within the sound track can, and most often is, at a normal, natural level. Reference level, with the dynamic range available, permits a movie to have that normal, natural dialogue, and then suddenly a spectacular, loud car chase without anyone touching the volume control. Every element in the sound track comes out as it should.

Now, having said all that, watching a movie at reference level in a home theater is almost never done. It can be extremely loud to begin with, but the close spaces typical of home theaters make it perceptibly even more so. Reference level is still very important in home theater though for several reasons. Because it is the absolute loudest a sound track should ever be played, its fairly intuitive that its a good idea to have a system that can competently go that loud. It gives you a sort of "safe maximum" volume level, even though you may never push it that high. Even more important though is knowing what volume you are at RELATIVE to reference level because if we go too low, we literally lose the quietest sounds since they are pushed below the audible threshold, surrounds lose their presence, the perceived spectral distribution of the track is altered, and dialogue intelligibility suffers.

[KingDeezie]

This always confuses me as well.

I have a Pioneer Elite from two or three years ago, and I also use MCACC.

The way MCACC sets the speaker levels, I have to turn it up to -15 or -10 to get a level that I feel is suitable; also depending on the movie.

I have brought it up to 0 before and it was loud as all hell; but also awesome.

I figured MCACC lowered the levels because all of my speakers are on some form of external amplification, (monoblocks, multichannel amps, etc, etc).

I usually just turn it up until I am satisfied with the volume; I don't think I could clip the external amps.

[McLoki]

Originally Posted by KingDeezie

I usually just turn it up until I am satisfied with the volume; I don't think I could clip the external amps.

That is the best way to set the volume. (turn it up until you are happy with it) If you are entering the -10 range though, you could be getting close to a recievers limits. (not in all cases of course, but louder than -10, you should have a really beefy amp, efficient speakers, or at least know what distortion sounds like and be willing to turn it down if you hear it.

Any amp can clip.

Here is something I wrote to a fellow polk owner when he blew his LSiC playing war of the worlds at reference levels. (and yes, he had an external amp)

I am not that shocked that you blew your center. How far is your listening position from your center channel?

Every time the distance from your speaker doubles, you have to increase the decibles by 6db to keep the volume the same. 105db (reference level) 12 feet away from your speaker would equate to 117db one meter away from your speaker (where most efficiency levels are measured).

The LSi's are 88db efficent at 1 meter so that would be:

88db = 1 watt
91db = 2 watts
94db = 4 watts
97db = 8 watts
100db = 16 watts
103db = 32 watts
106db = 64 watts
109db = 128 watts
112db = 256 watts
115db = 512 watts
118db = 1024 watts

So if the dvd was not recorded hot at all and was sticking to true reference levels and you sat 12 feet away from your speakers (assuming you calibrated at 75db from your listening position not from 1 meter away from your speaker) it would need 117db or close to 1,000 watts of power.

I would guess that your amp clipped (unless it can provied over 1,000 watt peaks into 4 ohms) and fried your tweeter and or crossover. (just depends if the crossover died before the tweeter could...)

Isn't math fun?

Michael

It adds up quickly....

[sapiendut]

Originally Posted by McLoki

Long story short - it is an arbitrary number that people set their home theaters to. (reference level is the volume level when your AVR is set to 0) It allows you to listen to a movie at -15 in your house with your home theater and have it the exact same volume as -15 is at my house with my home theater.

No it's NOT.

THX Reference Level is the average loudness of about 75 dB. Not necessarily the loudness you'd get at 0 dB gain on your receiver.

0 dB setting on the amp in your listening area does not necessarily gives the same loudness level as the 0 dB setting on the amp in my listening area.

That's where SPL meter comes to play.

Reference level as per THX standard in my listening room is when my receiver is set to around -16dB. That same receiver, in my buddy's listening area with a far more efficient speakers, reached reference level when the receiver is set to -23dB.

[McLoki]

I think you misunderstood my post - reference level is an arbitrary level that you SET your reciever or pre-pro to.

It relates to an 85db average level (normal conversation) and 105db peaks from each channel in your home theater. (with all speakers set to small so bass from all speakers gets directed to the sub) Due to this redirection - the sub may have to handle 115 db peaks instead of the rest of the channels 105 level.

When I say arbitrary - it is just that it was decided on as a standard to use, not as a level that you are expected to listen to movies at.

If you use the Avia setup disk to calibrate - you calibrate to 85db. (as the test tones on that disk are recorded at 20db under reference level.) If you use digital video essentials, you calibrate to 75db as the test tones that it uses are 30db under reference.

If you calibrate with your reciever, you need to read the manual so you know what level to calibrate to. (since different brands of recievers test tones are different levels under reference.)

Michael

[sapiendut]

Oops , my mistake then

[ozzman]

Sure we can get technical on how loud is to loud for are own speakers
And we have to remember every body's speakers and levels and receivers and rooms and acoustics are different .
But I think in are hearts we know where are level is.

Iam more a common sense type a guy then technical one . When your speakers stop sounding clear and muffled then you have past your point.Easy as that.

When you realize you have found your level don't ever go there again . Keep a couple db's away from it .(common sense).
My reciever like most have a cut off point in the setup for protection .I recommend to use it

I would hate to think that not one of us has pushed are systems to see how far we can go without it sounding like crap .But this time around i made sure to have a healthy amount of watts in my speakers and in the output of my reciever.To keep me satisfied

My level for movies and music is about -20 to -17db.(and that's pretty loud)
Ive been to 0db and i was cold sweating it.I love that rush that comes over you and you say to yourself Holy Sh*t does my system sound good.But in reality i like my pictures where they are.

Iam someone that has blown a center or two in my day.So iam very cautious .
If you turn it up and it sounds like Sh*t then i bet your to loud I never go pass 0db.No need.

REMEMBER DISTORTION IS NOT YOUR FRIEND LOL

And thats my 4 cents

By the way "Whats up" DriverKing
I didn't recognize you Brother,You changed you picture.
I had to take a second glance at you to make sure it was you.I missed you my friend