Apple TV+'s "Severance" (Season 2)

[Blu-ant]

Always felt uneasy about the Gemma story in S2, and I finally figured out why.

[Show spoiler]Gemma is presented in S1 as the more grounded, stoic of the pair, and that doesn't sit with the Cold Harbor conceit of S2.

As Mark presents her to Alexa in their second date (S1E6 Hide And Seek 22:25), Gemma was philosphical about not getting pregnant, always had a plan B.

Did you ever think about having kids? …
…We tried for a little while. Wasn't really working.We talked about adopting at one point, but… I don't know, you think OK, this is the life you've been given…
so do something with this.
That's very healthy.
Well, it's mostly stuff she said. She was er, very pragmatic, always had a plan B.

Now you can argue that Mark is uncomfortable saying this, seems because he's in an incredible amount of pain over losing Gemma. And this is hindsight. Everybody's smarter and less emotional in hindsight. Especially Mark. But also, this is where innie Mark and Helly are hitting it off, and where we don't see him crying on the way to work, etc.

BUT, the fact remains, Mark portrays her as pragmatic, not the emotional wreck we BELIEVE Gemma to be in S2. Yes, the clinic was working her over with all the subliminal programming, additional activities, but you don't get the sense from Mark that Gemma was depressed, even after losing the baby.

DEVON, too, presents Gemma as bringing stability and direction to Mark - we were all close, she was good for you.

Perhaps Lumon had some elaborate story about curing her depression, saving her from a car crash and rehabilitating her, or less plausibly, curing whatever psychological factors might be stopping her from reproducing.
Doesn't explain why she disappeared from Mark's life (she's aware of that) or any apparent reasons S1 Gemma would have sought treatment at Lumon.

What's done is done. No reason to expect any explanation in S3, given this gigantic plot hole is the entire premise for S2. At least I now know why I just didn't buy Gemma's S2 story, however tragically and powerfully it was portrayed.

[TV2693]

Originally Posted by RandomLurker1122

Can someone who's smarter than me (not a difficult feat) explain if this finale actually revealed the purpose of Gemma's confinement and what Cold Harbor was even for? Or are we still in the dark about a lot of this? Immediately after watching the finale, I feel like my questions haven't really been answered.

I personally have not seen an explanation for the underlying plot regarding Lumens and Gemma that entirely makes sense.

It's a mood-based, character driven show, though. Not understanding the underlying plot doesn't hinder any enjoyment.

[TV2693]

Originally Posted by Blu-ant

Always felt uneasy about the Gemma story in S2, and I finally figured out why.

[Show spoiler]Gemma is presented in S1 as the more grounded, stoic of the pair, and that doesn't sit with the Cold Harbor conceit of S2.

As Mark presents her to Alexa in their second date (S1E6 Hide And Seek 22:25), Gemma was philosphical about not getting pregnant, always had a plan B.

Did you ever think about having kids? …
…We tried for a little while. Wasn't really working.We talked about adopting at one point, but… I don't know, you think OK, this is the life you've been given…
so do something with this.
That's very healthy.
Well, it's mostly stuff she said. She was er, very pragmatic, always had a plan B.

Now you can argue that Mark is uncomfortable saying this, seems because he's in an incredible amount of pain over losing Gemma. And this is hindsight. Everybody's smarter and less emotional in hindsight. Especially Mark. But also, this is where innie Mark and Helly are hitting it off, and where we don't see him crying on the way to work, etc.

BUT, the fact remains, Mark portrays her as pragmatic, not the emotional wreck we BELIEVE Gemma to be in S2. Yes, the clinic was working her over with all the subliminal programming, additional activities, but you don't get the sense from Mark that Gemma was depressed, even after losing the baby.

DEVON, too, presents Gemma as bringing stability and direction to Mark - we were all close, she was good for you.

Perhaps Lumon had some elaborate story about curing her depression, saving her from a car crash and rehabilitating her, or less plausibly, curing whatever psychological factors might be stopping her from reproducing.
Doesn't explain why she disappeared from Mark's life (she's aware of that) or any apparent reasons S1 Gemma would have sought treatment at Lumon.

What's done is done. No reason to expect any explanation in S3, given this gigantic plot hole is the entire premise for S2. At least I now know why I just didn't buy Gemma's S2 story, however tragically and powerfully it was portrayed.

I don't think making sense is the show's aim.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by TV2693

I personally have not seen an explanation for the underlying plot regarding Lumens and Gemma that entirely makes sense.

It's a mood-based, character driven show, though. Not understanding the underlying plot doesn't hinder any enjoyment.

Agreed. Don't need to understand it to enjoy it. Some basic logic is required to keep viewers interested in watching the show. But who am I kidding, how long did Lost run around in circles because viewers believed, there must be some incredible story here? Sadly there wasn't, and some viewers saw it early and tuned out, but never underestimate the power of hope.

What this Severance isn't, is random and quirky for the sake of it. It seems purposeful and thoughtful, and things that don't make sense fall into place when more information gets revealed.

For example, it made NO sense that

[Show spoiler]Helly's outie wouldn't resign when Helly threatened to cut off her fingers, or actually committed suicide. Did her outie not fear for her own life or limb?

At that point, it seemed insane that someone would pursue a course that could lead to their own death.

Reveal - Helly is running the company, which has a messianic vision of it's aims and is from a family which thinks it's for the greater good to enslave the entire human race. Clearly these people believe they're on a mission, however psychopathic it might seem to we-the-cattle 'normal' people.

"We fear no one," taken to it's ultimate… I don't believe my innie can kill me… even in the face of the obvious truth that they would have, if not for random events that curtailed the suicide.

An explanation of sorts, but it still makes little sense, and more information might reveal why Lumon considers innies completely disposable and of no consequence to the outies. Absolute belief in the effectiveness of the chip is one thing, but believing the severed environment is so safe, no harm can come to the outie, still beggars belief… so far.

[Show spoiler]Milchick seems to believe what happens to the innies affects the outies, at a deep level. He's an outlier, though. Cobel, who invented the technology, SEEMS to looking for confirmation that the chip is "perfect" and completely isolates the outie. She kept putting Mark and Helly into situations that even Milchick thought were unwise. It might be that Cobel is unhappy with how Lumon is misusing her invention. Saying it's all about alleviating pain, but being used for much more sinister purposes. Think of it like animal experimentation, suffering of an inferior species for the sake of humans. A moral dilemma most people would rather not think about.

[TV2693]

Originally Posted by Blu-ant

Agreed. Don't need to understand it to enjoy it. Some basic logic is required to keep viewers interested in watching the show. But who am I kidding, how long did Lost run around in circles because viewers believed, there must be some incredible story here? Sadly there wasn't, and some viewers saw it early and tuned out, but never underestimate the power of hope.

What this Severance isn't, is random and quirky for the sake of it. It seems purposeful and thoughtful, and things that don't make sense fall into place when more information gets revealed.

For example, it made NO sense that

[Show spoiler]Helly's outie wouldn't resign when Helly threatened to cut off her fingers, or actually committed suicide. Did her outie not fear for her own life or limb?

At that point, it seemed insane that someone would pursue a course that could lead to their own death.

Reveal - Helly is running the company, which has a messianic vision of it's aims and is from a family which thinks it's for the greater good to enslave the entire human race. Clearly these people believe they're on a mission, however psychopathic it might seem to we-the-cattle 'normal' people.

"We fear no one," taken to it's ultimate… I don't believe my innie can kill me… even in the face of the obvious truth that they would have, if not for random events that curtailed the suicide.

An explanation of sorts, but it still makes little sense, and more information might reveal why Lumon considers innies completely disposable and of no consequence to the outies. Absolute belief in the effectiveness of the chip is one thing, but believing the severed environment is so safe, no harm can come to the outie, still beggars belief… so far.

[Show spoiler]Milchick seems to believe what happens to the innies affects the outies, at a deep level. He's an outlier, though. Cobel, who invented the technology, SEEMS to looking for confirmation that the chip is "perfect" and completely isolates the outie. She kept putting Mark and Helly into situations that even Milchick thought were unwise. It might be that Cobel is unhappy with how Lumon is misusing her invention. Saying it's all about alleviating pain, but being used for much more sinister purposes. Think of it like animal experimentation, suffering of an inferior species for the sake of humans. A moral dilemma most people would rather not think about.

The show left vague what Hellie’s outtie Eagan thought about the relationship between her innie and Mark.

Then it got weird. Like why did Eagan go in as a mole and have sex with Mark? Why did Eagan go see him at the restaurant?

I also thought Mark’s innie didn’t take into account that even though he wanted Hellie, Eagan could have taken herself out at any moment and then the relationship would end.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by TV2693

The show left vague what Hellie’s outtie Eagan thought about the relationship between her innie and Mark.

Then it got weird. Like why did Eagan go in as a mole and have sex with Mark? Why did Eagan go see him at the restaurant?

I also thought Mark’s innie didn’t take into account that even though he wanted Hellie, Eagan could have taken herself out at any moment and then the relationship would end.

Listening to the podcast, they don't say it outright, but I get the impression, the actors are told to play it ambiguously.

[Show spoiler]A bit one way, a bit another - so -
a bit like Helena likes both Marks,
a bit like she's probing him for information.
And they tweak it - more like she likes him, no no too much, a bit less, bit less, that's it. And that's the take that they use.

Probably to keep viewers guessing, and perhaps to leave the writer's more than one direction to take the story. Helena undercover did seem sometimes Helly, sometimes Helena, although fans were pretty sure it was Helena all the time. They'll have to be more ambiguous in future, although there's no doubt the ep 4 reveal gave a lot of viewers a great I KNEW IT! moment.

As to why Helena went undercover.

[Show spoiler]That's a bit-each-way. She was studying the video of the relationship so she could impersonate Helly and it seems she also yearned for the innocent love Helly was experienceing, without all Helena's Lumon bagage. And there's times you can see both - curiosity about innie Mark and genuine regret about her life-actions-circumstances, OR pretending to help Mark look for Gemma (when she knew where she was all along) and probing MDR for what they 'knew'. So only time will tell how that develops.

There's the safety aspect, too. Helly might try to kill her/herself again, so going undercover would have prevented that. Helly seemed to have an FU-Lumon purpose to live, once she revealed her feelings for Mark and he reciprocated. Helena was arguing to return to the severed floor after she'd been found out, claiming she feared for her life, but there was an undercurrent of curiosity about furthering her down-low experimentation with innieMark. outieMark is too cautious about the person who runs Lumon flirting with him. But there was a lot of joking/not joking going on in the restaurant.

Jame told Helly he

[Show spoiler]liked her fire-of-Kier, to encourage her. He could have told Helena that he likes Helly's fire and left it at that, but telling Helly shows an inclination to continue the experiment with innie Mark, perhaps to see if that fire makes-its-way to Helena. We can see why Lumon would let Helly and innie Mark continue, even after they let Gemma go. I don't believe the chip failed Cold Harbor, Mark just seemed more normal than the sum total of her Cold Harbor innie, a creepy voice telling her to dismantle a crib. Jame did seem to think the chip failed, so as disappointing as it was, he has to let-it-go. And he has the fire-of-Kier project to work on

.

Question is, will MDR keep refining,

[Show spoiler]now they know they're creating innies to torture severed subjects?

innieMark's choice seems illogical on the surface.

[Show spoiler]outieMark treated innieMark as a whole person in the video camera conversation. I'm glad you've found love, imagine how much I need Gemma back. Both Marks seem to have made peace with the fact that they're separate people with separate lives, and loves. There may be an element of coercion in outieMark saying that, but innieMark called his bluff and stayed with Helly. And we know why Jame might want to continue the Helly experiment.

As an aside - Jame's attitude to

[Show spoiler]innies was that they were garbage (to be disposed of?), until he saw Kier's-fire in Helly. As odd as that scene seemed, it marked Jame's realisation that innies were not subhuman, that they had value… even to the head of Lumon!

I hope I've covered all your questions, but you can see, even the producers of the show aren't giving specific answers about the people/relationships and WTF Lumon is up to… just yet.

[KarmaNL]

Originally Posted by Frank TJ Mackey

Besides the finale, which most people either loved or liked, what were everyone's favorite episodes this season?

I liked the retreat in the snow.

Season 2 ep 7 was an absolute masterpiece.

[TV2693]

Originally Posted by Blu-ant

Listening to the podcast, they don't say it outright, but I get the impression, the actors are told to play it ambiguously.

[Show spoiler]A bit one way, a bit another - so -
a bit like Helena likes both Marks,
a bit like she's probing him for information.
And they tweak it - more like she likes him, no no too much, a bit less, bit less, that's it. And that's the take that they use.

Probably to keep viewers guessing, and perhaps to leave the writer's more than one direction to take the story. Helena undercover did seem sometimes Helly, sometimes Helena, although fans were pretty sure it was Helena all the time. They'll have to be more ambiguous in future, although there's no doubt the ep 4 reveal gave a lot of viewers a great I KNEW IT! moment.

As to why Helena went undercover.

[Show spoiler]That's a bit-each-way. She was studying the video of the relationship so she could impersonate Helly and it seems she also yearned for the innocent love Helly was experienceing, without all Helena's Lumon bagage. And there's times you can see both - curiosity about innie Mark and genuine regret about her life-actions-circumstances, OR pretending to help Mark look for Gemma (when she knew where she was all along) and probing MDR for what they 'knew'. So only time will tell how that develops.

There's the safety aspect, too. Helly might try to kill her/herself again, so going undercover would have prevented that. Helly seemed to have an FU-Lumon purpose to live, once she revealed her feelings for Mark and he reciprocated. Helena was arguing to return to the severed floor after she'd been found out, claiming she feared for her life, but there was an undercurrent of curiosity about furthering her down-low experimentation with innieMark. outieMark is too cautious about the person who runs Lumon flirting with him. But there was a lot of joking/not joking going on in the restaurant.

Jame told Helly he

[Show spoiler]liked her fire-of-Kier, to encourage her. He could have told Helena that he likes Helly's fire and left it at that, but telling Helly shows an inclination to continue the experiment with innie Mark, perhaps to see if that fire makes-its-way to Helena. We can see why Lumon would let Helly and innie Mark continue, even after they let Gemma go. I don't believe the chip failed Cold Harbor, Mark just seemed more normal than the sum total of her Cold Harbor innie, a creepy voice telling her to dismantle a crib. Jame did seem to think the chip failed, so as disappointing as it was, he has to let-it-go. And he has the fire-of-Kier project to work on

.

Question is, will MDR keep refining,

[Show spoiler]now they know they're creating innies to torture severed subjects?

innieMark's choice seems illogical on the surface.

[Show spoiler]outieMark treated innieMark as a whole person in the video camera conversation. I'm glad you've found love, imagine how much I need Gemma back. Both Marks seem to have made peace with the fact that they're separate people with separate lives, and loves. There may be an element of coercion in outieMark saying that, but innieMark called his bluff and stayed with Helly. And we know why Jame might want to continue the Helly experiment.

As an aside - Jame's attitude to

[Show spoiler]innies was that they were garbage (to be disposed of?), until he saw Kier's-fire in Helly. As odd as that scene seemed, it marked Jame's realisation that innies were not subhuman, that they had value… even to the head of Lumon!

I hope I've covered all your questions, but you can see, even the producers of the show aren't giving specific answers about the people/relationships and WTF Lumon is up to… just yet.

Ehhh I’ll just leave it as the show works because of its vibes/moods and characters. The shadowy and dark photography is a big contributor as well.

I liked season two more than season one because it went deeper and darker.

Each episode of season two is like a stand alone episode, almost. The episode I liked least was episode 8, focusing on Cobell. It was a bit too vague and pointless. Seemed like filler to get to the finale(last two episodes)

[TV2693]

Originally Posted by KarmaNL

Season 2 ep 7 was an absolute masterpiece.

Drop in quality from that one to episode 8 focusing on Cobell. What was the point of that episode? Everything was too vague.

[KarmaNL]

Originally Posted by TV2693

Drop in quality from that one to episode 8 focusing on Cobell. What was the point of that episode? Everything was too vague.

I don't like her character and her sudden rage outbursts. Her plotline is the one I'm least invested in as she is sort of written out of the main story and then comes back in.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by KarmaNL

I don't like her character and her sudden rage outbursts. Her plotline is the one I'm least invested in as she is sort of written out of the main story and then comes back in.

I agree in principle, Cobel's outbursts seem contrived. The Sweet Vitriol backstory tries to explain why Cobel's life is one of barely suppressed rage. And how great that rage is.

[Show spoiler]It's meant to show how fanatical, talented, even genius she is, but at every turn, suppressed and kept down/held back by Lumon and the Eagans.

Utter devotion to Kier, guilt and blame over her mother's death, belief that serving Lumon is how she can best serve Kier. That she was favoured by Jame Eagan, who then took credit for her invention and told her to shut up or be shunned. That she's managing the severed floor, presumably some kind of experiment beyond the Testing Floor and MDR's role in that, but has no say in the development of her technology. She's so close, but it's out of reach. Not to mention, not getting any credit for what she's done and is still doing.

There is a lot of rage in her and she doesn't suffer fools or lesser devotees. Being brilliant but outside the Eagan family, dooms her to being exploited and suppressed, to maintain Eagan control of Lumon.

Is that sufficient explanation for Cobel's simmering rage that breaks through at the slightest provocation? Individual viewers can judge.

[Blu-ant]

For rewatchers:

[Show spoiler]once you've seen Natalie nearly crack when Milchick asks her about the mixed feelings the re-canonicalised paintings engendered…

Go back and watch the scene when Milchick is presented with the paintings and see the emotions she's suppressing throughout the interaction. She is empathising with Milchick's initial reaction of insult and revulsion, but not trying to show it. It's a Natalie tour de force of suppressed emotion and yearning to connect meaningfully with another person.

Reminds me of Effie in Hunger Games, initially vacuous, sycophantic and detached, but transforms into a real person with values and courage. Here's hoping for Nat!

[JamesKurtovich]

Caught up on this. Co-worker got me hooked. Holy shit. Best show to come out in a long time.

Not a big fan of Mark. Irving was the MVP.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

Caught up on this. Co-worker got me hooked. Holy shit. Best show to come out in a long time.

Not a big fan of Mark. Irving was the MVP.

Yer, Mark is the Harry Potter no-man protagonist. Everything just happens TO him and he reacts. People tell him what to do and he does it.
Helly is a bit like that, too. Neither Helly nor Helena seem to have much agency in their own stories. There's a case being made, in the plot, for Helly being the one with agency, but I'm unconvinced.

I'm looking forward to even more, interesting Irving stories next season. He's kind of free to do more spy work, now. And I still think he might have been Mark's therapist ("with the little mustache").

Glad you're enjoying it. It's great to see the spark of discovery.

Had a look at the disastrously titled Fountain of Youth yesterday. Despite the title and the conceit, it's humbly executed. Ho-hum and a bit contrived, but Guy Ritchie is a great director. He does "foreign music" in his films in a way that sets an unusual tone. Felt like he was holding back to get a foot in the door with Apple, so maybe they'll give him more scope in future.
Set your expectations low and it'll be enjoyable.

[Talal86]

This show has an excellent 'elevator pitch', but the moment to moment are very random, and seems like every direction/decisions the showrunner make are based mainly on aesthetics.

characters motivation/dynamics seems to change from episode to episode (eg Miss Huang)

and when the show is not concerned with 'looking good' they're doing filler side stories that go nowhere

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by Talal86

This show has an excellent 'elevator pitch', but the moment to moment are very random, and seems like every direction/decisions the showrunner make are based mainly on aesthetics.

characters motivation/dynamics seems to change from episode to episode (eg Miss Huang)

and when the show is not concerned with 'looking good' they're doing filler side stories that go nowhere

Interesting comments Mr Stiller.
I trust these insights will help you improve the direction of Season 3 for all of us. U rock

I do seriously hope for better direction, S2 did seem unfocussed.

It would be a waste if Huang doesn't return as a bitter baddie at some point. She's in a phase of rapid growth and more experience will shape her 'story' going forward. Like Cobel, she's a confusing combination of empathy for the "non person" innies and spiteful evil.

Nobody knows why the extravagance of the ice-trek ep was necessary for a couple of plot points that could just as easily have happened in the office.

But there are viewers who like the character backstory episodes in S2.
Many think the Gemma backstory is the best ep yet.
I personally enjoy rewatching Cobel's backstory. So bleak. So hopeless. So determined. So Cobel.

Tidbit for the rewatchers.

[Show spoiler]Helena is genuinely worried that she is unable to bring Cobel back in. Check out the face she makes when Cobel smells a trap and runs away. That's disappointment. And worry.

Trap or not. Immense power or not. Helena seems to know Cobel is the actual inventor of Severance, and genuinely does fear what she could do 'outside the tent'. And given Lumon's power and influence, that's a bit of a mystery. You'd think Lumon could disappear Cobel or at least destroy her credibility. But haven't??

And what a disappointment if Cobel just takes it to a competitor. Perhaps the same people Irving is working for, thinking they want to stop severance, when they want to steal it.