Apple TV+'s "Severance" (Season 2)

[BlueRagtop]

Praise Kier. It's official:

'Severance' renewed for Season 3 at Apple

Originally Posted by AnimalCMan

Really bothered by how they left this, more because if they take three years again between seasons, I don’t know how I’m gonna manage.

Ben Stiller has already said that there will not be as long a wait for Season 3. Season 2 was hit by both the Actors' and Writers' strikes, both of which significantly delayed production.

[AnimalCMan]

Originally Posted by BlueRagtop

Praise Kier. It's official:

'Severance' renewed for Season 3 at Apple




Ben Stiller has already said that there will not be as long a wait for Season 3. Season 2 was hit by both the Actors' and Writers' strikes, both of which significantly delayed production.

I knew it was hit by those delays, but that's good if he's at least acknowledged the next one won't be such a long wait.

I'm sure they're also aware that long wait hurt season 2 a bit because everyone I talked to couldn't remember season 1 too well. I think a lot of people watched recaps or the whole season again before starting season 2.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by AnimalCMan

Really bothered by how they left this, more because if they take three years again between seasons, I don’t know how I’m gonna manage. This was one of the most tense hours of tv ever for me and I kept waiting for something to go wrong so them leaving things on

[Show spoiler]Gemma still in the stairwell and not even outside or safely away from Lumen and to have Mark abandon her there crushed me.

I was exhausted and angry when the episode ended. How can they just leave us hanging like that?!

On the podcast, they said they were thinking of

[Show spoiler]leaving Mark in the hallway having to make the decision to go with Gemma or stay with Helly.

They thought that was too much of a cliffhanger, so they showed him making the decision.

They at least answered that question, but yes, we'll have to wait to see what happens. And yes, the first season ended with an almighty cliffhanger. They said they wanted this season to be different, so you get

[Show spoiler]the Butch & Sundance ending

which is usually final suspense and no answers. At least you know there will be an answer… but not next week.

From the discussions, they spend a long time making the episodes.

They shot a whole week

[Show spoiler]with the marching band in MDR

.
A month

[Show spoiler]in the wilderness for the Woe's Hollow episode

, just their talking shots, not the campsite, not in the tents, not the wide shots of people walking - they'd be doubles, just their conversations and

[Show spoiler]sticking Helly's head in the water. The reverse shot of her underwater

was in a tank in a studio.
I think the sequence with

[Show spoiler]Irv & Helly by the waterfall and the others on the cliff above

was a week.

So you see it's not a run and gun production, it's like making a 10 hour movie.

The second season was held up by writers and actors strikes. Hopefully that won't affect this one, but it'll be a year minimum (probably 2 to set expectations).

In the old days, they knew years ahead and could plan accordingly. They'd shoot an episode a week, then weeks of post-production (for sci-fi space stuff) and done, but the actors would be shooting for a week, then on to the next episode the next week. Severance can spend a week on one sequence in a scene.
Mark

[Show spoiler]running down the hallways at the beginning of E1

was shot over 3 months, as they moved the limited number of actual hallways around for different shots for the rest of the production.
And that's just modern production realities.

The

[Show spoiler]running and the marching band

were wasted effort in my opinion, I just wanted to fast forward through both of them, but creative people get ideas and apparently they have too much money to make them happen.

As for the characters in jeopardy… they don't call it a cliffhanger for nothing. Keeps you wanting more. And given how long you'll have to wait, you have to want it BAD. Sorry.

Interesting trivia: for

[Show spoiler]Mammalians Nurturable

, they erected a giant marquee on a golf course (to control the weather and the light) and put walls up to make it look like it was indoors.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Blu-ant

They at least answered that question, but yes, we'll have to wait to see what happens. And yes, the first season ended with an almighty cliffhanger. They said they wanted this season to be different, so you get

[Show spoiler]the Butch & Sundance ending

which is usually final suspense and no answers.

Hm, I disagree. The

[Show spoiler]ending of the Butch and Sundance movie

didn't leave questions open, and neither does this. The question of the moment (

[Show spoiler]which choice would Mark make

) was answered, the end just sets the stage for whatever the next season brings. Generally, I was surprised how many of the central questions were explicitly answered in this episode. It was almost too easy (e.g.

[Show spoiler]the exposition by Cobel

).

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Hm, I disagree. The

[Show spoiler]ending of the Butch and Sundance movie

didn't leave questions open, and neither does this. The question of the moment (

[Show spoiler]which choice would Mark make

) was answered, the end just sets the stage for whatever the next season brings. Generally, I was surprised how many of the central questions were explicitly answered in this episode. It was almost too easy (e.g.

[Show spoiler]the exposition by Cobel

).

That's one way of looking at it. And while

[Show spoiler]Butch and Sundance are heading to certain death, in a story full of improbabilities, it only takes something out of left field to change that outcome. Optimists think, SOMETHING will happen and save them, pessimists think, oh well, that's how it ended.

And the end of S1 could have been viewed that way…

• obviously the truth of Severance has been exposed to the world, it's over
• the innies know about their outies something they were never supposed to know which will de-motivate them and get them fired
• especially Mark, so he won't be able to do anything about Gemma
• he was going to quit anyway, (and as it played out, his outie didn't even believe his sister when she told him what he'd said, and still wanted to quit)

It was obviously the end of Severance and those innies. And it came PRETTY close, except…

And I don't expect you to have read all my ravings, but I consider Cold Harbor, the premise for the whole season, to be a giant plot hole.
The what-if thing out of left-field that completely changes the obvious outcome the S1 cliffhanger creates.

Mark and the two others had finished all their files at the end of season 1, they were in the kitchen waiting for Helly to finish hers. Then Cobel is fired, then the OTC, but 3 episodes later Cobel is telling Helena Mark is so close to completing Cold Harbor. The best possible explanation is that Cobel knew Cold Harbor was next on his list, and the whole project is called Cold Harbor, despite it being one of 25 innies Mark had created for Gemma. Maybe Gemma was their most successful test subject, but one success, without the result being repeatable doesn't change the world. A specific Refiner and a specific Subject got the severance barrier to hold, could be the exception that proves the rule, so to speak. And Gemma was put through all the other tests many times, also repeatability, but Cold Harbor was a one-time test? Doesn't even make sense! I'm not going to go on… but I can. Eventually could go through it all, right up to the goat, and it's… plot holes all the way down.

It was a satisfactory enough ending to the season, and it's not difficult to put all quibbles aside.

I agree, the exposition was revealing, it WAS too easy, it was specific enough to advance the story, but doesn't explain

[Show spoiler]what all the other Refiners… in 216 countries are doing. They're not all working on Gemma, and even at Branch 501 there's 3 other Refiners and apparently no other test subjects and no other testing floors. I'm loath to go to Stiller's Lexington File as it's not in the show, but it implies one Refiner created an act of terrorism and industrial espionage.
So Cobel gave a TINY clue, major for Mark and Gemma, but barely a glimpse into what Lumon is up to. And what were all the other goats used for? Sounds like the sacrifices happened pretty regularly… and there are a lot of goats…

So while that kind of wraps up the Gemma story, there's no reason Lumon won't grab her before she leaves the building, take her back and sacrifice her anyway. The severance barrier may not have held, hence Jame's F word, but it was holding just fine until Mark appeared. I'd argue the barrier held just fine. Alternatively, I'm sure with more than one Cold Harbor test, it may have been perfected. Every other innie was tested over and over, perhaps for years… there must have been a reason for that… Plot holes, plot holes!

Innie Mark made a choice, but outie Mark would make a different choice and like it or not, outie Mark is in the driver's seat.

Innie Mark should realise outie Mark is as moral as he is and does intend to give them both lives, but there's SO many questions around that. I've pointed out before, many people have quite separate work and home lives, some have affairs at work, sometimes they interfere, and sometimes they don't… there's many stories of… we found out the traveling salesman had 5 wives and families in 5 towns and nobody was any the wiser. Severance is only a tiny twist on real life, however outrageous the science fiction seems.

Cobel was a correct as she could be, there's no future for Mark and Helly, the Eagans wouldn't allow it. We have clues. Jame likes Helly better than Helena for continuing the Eagan legacy, but Cobel can't know that, and Helly doesn't seem to be of a mind to help Jame. Helena may realise she's better with Mark, and that opens possibilities. Jame is not above creating another innie for Helena, but he might just see that somewhere buried deep in Helena is the Kier Jame is looking for and he just has to find it… somehow.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by AnimalCMan

I knew it was hit by those delays, but that's good if he's at least acknowledged the next one won't be such a long wait.

I'm sure they're also aware that long wait hurt season 2 a bit because everyone I talked to couldn't remember season 1 too well. I think a lot of people watched recaps or the whole season again before starting season 2.

Let me know when they announce the cast list… see who's in and who's out.

I'm still thinking 2 years…

[EvaDK]

Well, so it ends... for now.

I got the most dramatic showdown of the episode right (Mark & Drummond), but not who would ultimately come to Mark's aid. Had completely forgotten that Brienne of Tarth is in this season.

A very Lynchian ending, both enormously satisfying and also a bit frustrating at the same time. Innie Mark delivered on his side of the bargain with Outie Mark; Gemma is herself and free thanks to him. But ultimately he walked towards the woman that he loves and ran away with her towards what seems like an impossible life together.

About Cold Harbor, interestingly Gemma's chip seemed to work as she was disassembling the crib with no response or memory being triggered from past trauma. But then Mark walked into the room and it seemed like Gemma trusted this person and took his hand despite Dr Mauer's dire warning via the intercom. The chip ultimately failed. It was very satisfying to watch Jame Eagan scream out, realizing his defeat on top of his conversation with Helly, admitting to having no love for his daughter, because he didn't see Kier in her.

Another detail that some one else caught; the name printed on the packaging of the crib that Mark assembled, reads COL d’ ARBOR. So that explains the name of the room - it's the crib itself. I think Ben Stiller and Dan Erickson had fun putting their own 'Rosebud' (Citizen Kane) mystery into the series.

Bad filmmakers imitate; great filmmakers steal - from the best!

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by EvaDK

Well, so it ends... for now.

Had completely forgotten that Brienne of Tarth is in this season.

Apparently she's sworn off fight scenes so she doesn't get typecast, but was such a fan of Severance, she made an exception.

She also said her favourite part of Season 1 was the goats.

She bumped into Stiller at the Emmys and he was nice to her about Game of Thrones, so she reached out to meet him (she loved Escape At Dannemora) to get to work with him. This was before Severance S1 came out, and he told her about the show and it sounded really interesting, and then told her he didn't have a part for her. She got obsessed watching the show when it came out and was extremely disappointed she couldn't get a role.

She's on podcast S2E3, quite a bit of personal story if you want to go into it. She's really fringe, really fringe. Sadly the fandom is all lost on me, never got into Thrones, but even by Severance standards, she's outstanding.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Blu-ant

[Show spoiler]And Gemma was put through all the other tests many times, also repeatability, but Cold Harbor was a one-time test?

[Show spoiler]I think it was just the final test of the many.

So Cobel gave a TINY clue, major for Mark and Gemma, but barely a glimpse into what Lumon is up to.

Sure, but those other activities are not important for viewers of the show so far. I think you're overthinking it.

Innie Mark made a choice, but outie Mark would make a different choice and like it or not, outie Mark is in the driver's seat.

Things can change if outie Mark goes through with reintegration.

[Show spoiler]Maybe we'll even end up with a Mark/Gemma/Helena throuple.

[Blu-ant]

I value and support all your ideas, even if I disagree. Hey, we're making stuff up here.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

[Show spoiler]Maybe we'll even end up with a Mark/Gemma/Helena throuple.

Here's the fun part.

[Show spoiler]You left out Helly, who is really the key to the whole puzzle.

I'm sure it will be a process, with ups and downs, but reintegration is literally an unknown at this point. I imagine it like going to an office job - there's things you do there, there's things you do in your personal life and they probably shouldn't overlap, get a break from work etc., but work encroachment on personal life has slowly crept to up to and including work-from-home, which works for some people, but not everyone.

Gemma/outieMark
Gemma must be so traumatised, 2 years of captivity and torture of not-knowing what they were doing to her innies but literally still feeling the physical effects.
And underneath (you still feel it, you just don't know what it is), who knows how messed up she is, multiple innies, each experiencing endless torture. Ms Casey had a relatively happy life and she may come into play for innie healing. Imagine trying to reintegrate Gemma and all her innies.

Here's a plot hole question - Which innie does Gemma become if she enters the birthing cabin (for example)? The best answer is Lumon creates the innie by software modifications in the chip, and that's the innie she becomes. The cabin or any room is just a switch… but that requires Lumon cooperation to select an innie. And doesn't really require separate rooms for separate innies, just one room that gets dressed for each innie, or 6 rooms if she's visiting 6 in a day… not 25. Plot hole city.

InnieMark/Helly
would have to be accommodated somehow, innie weekend cabin or something. Mark has no attraction to Helena and while innieMark was fooled by Helena, it was Helly he was attracted to and that blinded him to anything that was not-right about imposterHelly.

Anyone who's been in love doesn't need explained how much people in love overlook when they're in-love. What they're in love with is THEIR idea of the other person, which has to survive learning how much of that is fantasy and what the reality is.

Irv (at heart being a spy) twigged to imposterHelly's story not being true, but it took him a while to find the personality inconsistencies, even when being informed by suspicion. Mark being in love, would probably never see them.

Helena
As much as I push Helena actually liking Mark, we'll really find out if that's true now that he's derailed Cold Harbor. There may be some underlying attraction that's going on (pheromones or something), but Helena's FEELINGS are under test now.

Jame likes what Helly became with Mark, so he might encourage Helena and outieMark, or he might encourage innieMark and Helly OR he might encourage Helena and innieMark. That's as F'd up as Lumon and the Eagans, and that's saying something.

Cobel
Imagine if Jame brought Cobel back in to manage the reintegration nightmare these events have created. Not that Lumon would want to widely sponsor reintegration, but in these cases… where it advances Lumon's goals, like 'improving' Helena for the sake of the company.

Lumon treats innies theoretically as a dumping ground for bad experiences. Practically, in the real world, they are separate parts of one person's personality and experience. And just as I expect innieDylan would become outieDylan in the same circumstances… what happens to Mark? Do the innie and outie blur once both sets of circumstances merge? outieDylan does seem to have learned from the experience, but I think that's Hollywood character-growth theory for 'satisfactory' story outcomes, and hopefully Severance won't be bound by that nonsense. The Simpsons proved, people don't change…

[Blu-ant]

Jon Stewart was the guest on the We We Are episode breakdown podcast. He's a friend of Stiller's and he's actually hidden in the crowd at the Severed Story event.

He's a big fan of the show. He tells how he has often rewarded his staff after marathon efforts… with things like a… Waffle Truck.

And relates how his heart sank when the Waffle Party made an appearance on Severance. IS he Lumon??

[Frank TJ Mackey]

I will watch Season 2 again in its entirety at some point. Finale kicked ass, all of it, IMO.

[EvaDK]

Finale breakdown by an entire panel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa1KCP1AWs

[RandomLurker1122]

Can someone who's smarter than me (not a difficult feat) explain if this finale actually revealed the purpose of Gemma's confinement and what Cold Harbor was even for? Or are we still in the dark about a lot of this? Immediately after watching the finale, I feel like my questions haven't really been answered.

[EvaDK]

Originally Posted by RandomLurker1122

Can someone who's smarter than me (not a difficult feat) explain if this finale actually revealed the purpose of Gemma's confinement and what Cold Harbor was even for? Or are we still in the dark about a lot of this? Immediately after watching the finale, I feel like my questions haven't really been answered.

Not all questions have been answered, which isn't really a problem imo. This show is more about the journey and the questions, than it is about answers. But here goes:

Lumon is using Gemma as a testbed for the chip they've inserted into her brain. Macro Data Refinement - Mark, her husband - has unknowingly been creating files that correspond to the four tempers that were devised by Lumon founder Kier Eagan.

These files when completed by MDR, correspond to a testing room and a designated innie inside Gemma, that is activated every time she enters that room. Each room tests her response to a specific trauma, supervised by Dr. Mauer.

The Cold Harbor test was the final and 25th file that was completed by Mark. The corresponding CH testing room was designed to test whether Gemma's chip would still function when exposed to the greatest trauma of her life; her miscarriage symbolized my the crib that her husband Mark assembled for their child to come.

The chip is designed to suppress pain and trauma, to the point where the person has no memory or emotional response to it. Gemma's chip 'held the barrier' while she was told to disassemble the crib. However, it failed when her husband Mark entered the CH room and pleaded with her to come with him. As if something within Gemma wanted to trust him, overriding the chip.

And hence what was designed to be Jame Eagan's and Lumon's greatest triumph, instead became their greatest defeat. Cold Harbor was a failure.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Blu-ant

[Show spoiler]As much as I push Helena actually liking Mark, we'll really find out if that's true now that he's derailed Cold Harbor. There may be some underlying attraction that's going on (pheromones or something), but Helena's FEELINGS are under test now.

I think Helena

[Show spoiler]is most of all looking for real connection with an authentic person that she can't find in the Eagan bubble. Maybe she reintegrates with Helly R. too ...

.

[Frank TJ Mackey]

Besides the finale, which most people either loved or liked, what were everyone's favorite episodes this season?

I liked the retreat in the snow.

[Blu-ant]

Originally Posted by Frank TJ Mackey

Besides the finale, which most people either loved or liked, what were everyone's favorite episodes this season?

I liked the retreat in the snow.

I'm torn between the 2 eps after that,

• getting Helly
  [Show spoiler]back and all the fun Dylan and Milchick had with that
• the Marks
  [Show spoiler]'encounter' Helly/Helena on the same day and outie Mark finds out what he's been up to with his Hall Pass.
  This is the one I watch the most, despite
  [Show spoiler]the creepy dinner party
  .

I make no secret about thinking everything about Cold Harbor was insufferable.

[Stanis]

Think this was a good ending to the series and there shouldnt be a season 3. But thats me. If severance was a film, that was a good place to stop.

[Blu-ant]

For the curious, there was a getaway plan.

[Show spoiler]Devon and Cobel were supposed to be waiting outside the front entrance in a getaway car. Think I heard that on the podcast. They never intended to shoot it, obviously.

A disgraced former employee and the sister-in-law of the subject of the greatest achievement in human history, idling a car all day, outside the front entrance? Nobody would think that was suspicious.