I have sumed up some things here. To do lists for both formats.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by kevinca1

I thought we wouldnt have hd dvd fan boys on this forum.

Oh so being realistic makes me a fanboy?

Sorry Jim...not quite drinking the koolaid yet. I'm not Blu-Ray hater but when you see

1. A shoddy platform launch like what the BDA put on with 1 player, shoddy initial movies and no BD-Java.

2 Pricing on dedicated players that does not want to become affordable.

3. Emprical evidence supporting the lack of interest in Kilobuck players and low movie attach to the sold BD players

color me not impressed. I reserve the right to change my opion to something a little less fanboyish but the BDA has stunk up the place with their shoddy launch and all you guys can offer me is the idea of waiting for some savior.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

3. Sony should start using VC-1 on their titles

Not really - we have seen great titles with MPEG2 and AVC - there is no reason at all to use VC-1.

VC-1 is not the all perfect god's gift to encoders that Amir makes it out to be. I love the artifacting in the WB HD DVD logo - that is priceless.

4. They need to "cherry pick" more of their titles with pure PQ in mind (I think HD-DVD has done this to a large degree with a few obvious exceptions such as FMJ etc) to overcome the appearance that HD-DVD titles are "better looking".

That I agree with. Sony at least has been kinda running titles based on release dates and popular past sellers for the catalogs - we have been getting hits like Basic Instinct 2 and movies like Click that are not the greatest image quality.

I think this will even out over time and when we see Chicken Little and Pirates I, I think we will all be pleasantly surprised

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Oh so being realistic makes me a fanboy?

Sorry Jim...not quite drinking the koolaid yet. I'm not Blu-Ray hater but when you see

1. A shoddy platform launch like what the BDA put on with 1 player, shoddy initial movies and no BD-Java.

2 Pricing on dedicated players that does not want to become affordable.

3. Emprical evidence supporting the lack of interest in Kilobuck players and low movie attach to the sold BD players

color me not impressed. I reserve the right to change my opion to something a little less fanboyish but the BDA has stunk up the place with their shoddy launch and all you guys can offer me is the idea of waiting for some savior.

Lets see

1 You stuck in a time warp here?

2 UMMM toshiba player is same price but also is more then PS3 and the Samsung.

3 Hmm lets see toshiba had 2 months release lead. they launched with 3 titles blu-ray had 7. tiltes announced and out are equall and blu-ray has yet to have all studios supporting to release as in Fox.

[BTBuck1]

Kevin, don't bother with Hmurchison, his sig is B.S. he's got the HDDVD love goggles on and can't see past the fifth element and house of flying daggers.

[PurpleAardvark]

Well Then let us correct his mistakes:

Originally Posted by hmurchison

1. Check. Both Universal and Warner have shown why they are the studios to align with. If you remove Warner from Blu-Ray your launch isn't half of what you have now. It's ironic...Warner basically saved Blu-Ray because Fox/Columbia/Disney haven't done shite. Adding Disney and LGF next year will give HD DVD a tremdous boost.

2. They have- LG and Liteon are both looking at making drives. Liteon OEMs for a lot of Tier1 vendors like Sony and more.

3. No they don't. HD DVD drives are still easier to make hence you have more slimline drives available for laptops.

4. No they don't...they simply need to have the Xbox 360 with an add on have a similar effect on movie sales.

5. HD-XA2 1080p support over HDMI 1.3...not that it really matter in most cases.

6. They are likely gaining support. With Videoscan and Neilsen numbers corroborating a significant advantage in movie attach rate. HD DVD has done nothing but gained. They've outsold the Samsung player by a factor of 2.5 in the US alone.





BD Players

1. They need to release more quality movies rather than quantity

2. No they have to outsell Toshiba, RCA Xbox add ons and the bevy of laptops enabled with HD DVD drives.

3. They have to offer hardware that at least matches the base level HD DVD player with support for TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, they need ethernet ports and full legacy support back down to CD.

4. They need a low cost player option for people who won't allow a game console in their home. My girlfriend doesn't want a game console in the home and I know she's not the only one afraid of the effects of too much game playing on kids.

5. They must get Universal onboard. Say what you want but Universal has a lot of quality movies. Evidently Blu-Ray may be losing the porn arena as I've recently heard about difficulties with studios getting their movies replicated. DigitalOn has posted that on these boards. HD DVD is looking like a good option there.

6. They don't just need PS3 success they need PS3 movie success. Just because a bunch of people buy the console doesn't mean we're going to see gonzo movie sales.

I don't know were to start there is so much wrong with his post.

1. You don't know what you are talking about. Disney is huge, so is fox. I don't think I have to start rattling titles off here some one else can if they want to.

2. If you think HD drives are going to end up in sony like you are infuring, will not going to happen. I also thought sony owned most of the OEM's it deals with.

3.Wow they already do that. Sammy plays cd, dvd, Blu rays and it works too. Blu-Ray supports all the codecs HD does, so do the players.

4. Just because Xbox throws an add one out there for HD DVD desn't mean everyone is going to buy it, it isn't even part of the gaming. However BD is in every PS3 you can't change that or take it away, like an external drive. Every one who gets a PS3 gets a BD player. However not everyone who has an XBox360 has an HD player. Slight imballence there.

5. How do you know which drive is easier to make. made on lately? If it was me I would say Blu ray because it is easier to ge the movie to play. I don't have to press eject and reload 20 times to get it to work like the A1 I had.

6. Look at psp sales and there movie sales. What do you think is going to happen with the PS3?

7. Sorry bud if your girlfriend won't let you have a game system in your house. You are one deprived man. How ever I diagree with your whole game effects on kids. In fact when I have kids I will let them play games in MODERATION. Yes most pshychologist would agree with me too. Not letting a child have something like that or telling them it is wrong will have the oposit effect to which you want. Sorry bro don't take thi the wrong way either, if a women can't like you for who you are and what you like, then it ain't ever gonna work.

8. As far as Universal goes yah the have some good titles but it is easier to get one studio, than it is to get 5 or 6. I would love to see you HD people post on how soon sony is going to crawl over to HD. Of how fox is going to sign on to HD. Disney maybe in a year or two.

9. HD sales to be sucessful should be 3 to 4 times what BD is. Seeing how it has been out twice as long. So only 2.5 would mean a decrease in momentum, a bad start, or loosing support.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by kevinca1

Lets see

1 You stuck in a time warp here?

2 UMMM toshiba player is same price but also is more then PS3 and the Samsung.

3 Hmm lets see toshiba had 2 months release lead. they launched with 3 titles blu-ray had 7. tiltes announced and out are equall and blu-ray has yet to have all studios supporting to release as in Fox.

1. I am?
2. How is $499 more than $499?
3. That's a piss poor excuse. 2 months is nothing. HD DVD had to prove itself and it did with great quality. The second part speaks volumes about Blu-Ray. They told us how great it was and then half the studios ignored supporting the launch.

I'm not counting out Blu-Ray but to sit and think that HD DVD's inertia is just going to dissipate because of the Playstation is foolish.

Originally Posted by Brian@BBY

Kevin, don't bother with Hmurchison, his sig is B.S. he's got the HDDVD love goggles on and can't see past the fifth element and house of flying daggers.

I don't love HD DVD but I've always championed that it is the more sensible format. They delivered on time with decent media. Blu-Ray has not..period.

Originally Posted by PurpleAardvark

Well Then let us correct his mistakes:

This should be interesting.

Let me beat down your puerile rebuttal with ease.

1. Having a studio advantage is only such when said studios actually deliver movies in quantity. Add up Universal and Warner movies and then compare then to how many movies Disney and Fox have delivered. Note the difference?

2. You thought wrong. I've been in IT sales for a while and Sony doesn't manufacture even half their optical drives. LG and Liteon are very good oem suppliers of optical drives. This helps both platforms

3. http://reviews.cnet.com/Panasonic_DM...2.html?tag=nav
clearly shows the $1300 Panasonic will require a firmware update for TrueHD and DTS-HD MA support. WTF how late is this player??

4. The context here is the effect on movie purchases PA. So while everyone gets a BD player not everyone purchasing a PS3 will have a HDTV or care about movies. I get your point but your context is a bit off. We're only concerned about the game consoles in the context of how many movies the owner buys. With a HD DVD add on it's primary function is to play movies. There's no Trojan Horse here.

5. Because the lens assembly uses simply optics and numerical aperture. You get DVD and Blue Laser support with a simple OPU and lens. In Blu-Ray you have to "graft" on Red Laser DVD support. Meaning it's more expensive. I would say your anecdotal evidence pales in comparison to actually understanding why HD DVD is cheaper. Go study some more

6. LOL..the same PSP that studios have abandoned. http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/6025/53/

It seems that Sony can't catch a break in 2006. If it's not overheating batteries eroding profits due to recalls, overheating PlayStation 3 consoles causing machines to malfunction at games shows, poor PSP sales and Blu-ray manufacturing problems delaying PS3 production

7. My gf is a counselor with a Master's Degree with plenty of coursework in Psychology. I think I'll defer to her knowledge on the subject over yours. Thanks anyway. I'm not saying games screw your kid up but not every family wants game consoles

8. Sony/Columbia and Fox won't be over for a while. But if Lionsgate and Disney come over then that virtually guarantees HD DVD survival.

9. Please don't embarass yourself. You're not a "numbers" guy. Just stick with being the impassioned Pom Pom toting fan and let those who are a bit more articulate discuss the number. Just a friendly suggestion.

I'm not here to piss in your cheerios about Blu-Ray. HD DVD has its issues as well but they've clearly executed better than the BDA has. Reading these forums you get a sense of hope and great support for the format but if you are correct your statements should hold up under scrutiny. Some of you want a bully pulpit ..a mutal admiration society where everyone agrees with you statements. If that's case then just let people know that frank and open discussion is not wanted on these boards.

Once again get the facts straight,

Toshiba player 999.99 but that of course is not mention because quess what the PRICE WENT UP. so you and your hd dvd fanboys ignore this like the plaque, lets see xbox 360 299.00 core hd dvd add on 199. whats that? 498 no hdmi 1.3 no sacd can not play the advanced audio but WTF??????

Warner uses VC-1 on both but WTF????

You and all your hd dvd fan boys are stuck in the past and will not accept facts. Lets see how many bad transfers are on hd dvd but WTF???

Oh but WTF you had to wait 4 months for Truhd on HD dvd WTF????

[JTK]

Hmurchison: You've told us many a time now that you have not been able yet to buy into either format, even though you've had no problems pimping HD-DVD like mad for the past year.

I still can't believe you haven't put your money where your mouth is and at least gone to WalMart and get the $300 RCA Toshiba clone or something like that.


In any event, I'd like to know: How much of either format have you actually personally seen with your own eyes? What discs? How much time? Displays? Players? etc. etc. How recently?
^^
All those kinds of questions...

[Rob Tomlin]

One more fact you need to get straight.

Uncompressed LPCM is the same buit rate as the others,because it doesnt have the plus means nothing.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by kevinca1

Once again get the facts straight,

Toshiba player 999.99 but that of course is not mention because quess what the PRICE WENT UP. so you and your hd dvd fanboys ignore this like the plaque, lets see xbox 360 299.00 core hd dvd add on 199. whats that? 498 no hdmi 1.3 no sacd can not play the advanced audio but WTF??????

Warner uses VC-1 on both but WTF????

You and all your hd dvd fan boys are stuck in the past and will not accept facts. Lets see how many bad transfers are on hd dvd but WTF???

Oh but WTF you had to wait 4 months for Truhd on HD dvd WTF????

Ok of we're allowed to be myopic the Pioneer Blu-Ray player is $1499. What's your point. Fact is I can purchase a HD DVD player today for under $450 you couldn't purchase a PS3 right now for a million.

Oh brother. HDMI 1.3 explain exactly what that does for me "today" considering there are no 1.3 AVR. Explain how a failed format like SACD is such a big deal.

That stuff doesn't work with me folks. Neither does the "it's 1080p"

If you want "marketecture" Blu-Ray's your format right now. If you want a great selection of movies on a format that gives you TrueHD, Ethernet and a working interactivity layer for under $500 you choose.

Blu-Ray will be there, I have little doubt but right now it's not a good value and consumers are deciding with their wallets. 2.5x more HD players sold vs the Sammy in the US alone. Neilsen and Videoscan number point to a 3x advantage in movie sales to players. The excitement right now is HD DVD.

I'm calling it like I see it. I think for myself. I don't hate Blu-Ray but I'm nonplussed by their poor launch.

btw TrueHD 2-channel shipped at launch.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I'm calling it like I see it. I think for myself. I don't hate Blu-Ray but I'm nonplussed by their poor launch.

That's my question: How much have you actually seen for yourself?

Once again you are in a time warp.

Pioneer is actually less they what was first reported,

Panasonic is also

Once again truhd is not better then uncompressed LPCM they are the same but rate., ask Kris deering he could not tell the difference between them.

Oh god its cheap again the same talking point used over and over.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by JTK

Hmurchison: You've told us many a time now that you have not been able yet to buy into either format, even though you've had no problems pimping HD-DVD like mad for the past year.

I still can't believe you haven't put your money where your mouth is and at least gone to WalMart and get the $300 RCA Toshiba clone or something like that.


In any event, I'd like to know: How much of either format have you actually personally seen with your own eyes? What discs? How much time? Displays? Players? etc. etc. How recently?
^^
All those kinds of questions...

I've seen the HD-XA1 multiple times. I've seen Serenity, Million Dollar Baby, The Last Samurai and plenty of trailer. Not extensive experience and I'll admit it but enough of a comparison to understand why the prevailing opinion is HD DVD has superior quality movies although Blu-Ray is making up for lost ground. I'm really thinking that I'm going A2 in January because I like the idea of having the TrueHD support and HDMI into a AVR that I want next year as well.

My money will indeed be going into building a little setup. I've given Blu-Ray a chance to win my hear but they want more money than this other lady I've got my eye on.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Ok of we're allowed to be myopic the Pioneer Blu-Ray player is $1499. What's your point. Fact is I can purchase a HD DVD player today for under $450 you couldn't purchase a PS3 right now for a million.

Oh brother. HDMI 1.3 explain exactly what that does for me "today" considering there are no 1.3 AVR. Explain how a failed format like SACD is such a big deal.

That stuff doesn't work with me folks. Neither does the "it's 1080p"

If you want "marketecture" Blu-Ray's your format right now. If you want a great selection of movies on a format that gives you TrueHD, Ethernet and a working interactivity layer for under $500 you choose.

Blu-Ray will be there, I have little doubt but right now it's not a good value and consumers are deciding with their wallets. 2.5x more HD players sold vs the Sammy in the US alone. Neilsen and Videoscan number point to a 3x advantage in movie sales to players. The excitement right now is HD DVD.

I'm calling it like I see it. I think for myself. I don't hate Blu-Ray but I'm nonplussed by their poor launch.

btw TrueHD 2-channel shipped at launch.

Oh really it was supporetd at launch???

but you claim the panasonic will not but it does also AT Launch if i use you r logic.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by kevinca1

Once again you are in a time warp.

Pioneer is actually less they what was first reported, ]

Panasonic is also

ONce agin truhd is not better then uncompressed LPCM they are the same but rate., ask Kris deering he could not tell the difference between them.

Oh god its cheap again the same talking point used over and over.

Lossless audio in the form of TrueHD or DTS HD MA uses less space. The sound should be identical when levels are matched. You're not supposed to be able to tell the difference. It's LOSSLESS. sheesh. It's about using less space.

Originally Posted by Kevinca1

Oh really it was supporetd at launch???

but you claim the panasonic will not but it does also AT Launch if i use you r logic.

The Panasonic does support LPC audio but it doesn't support TrueHD or DTS-HD MA at launch which happend last week so it's not there. Future free firmware update. The question though is why is such an expensive player shipping unfinished?

[Blu-Light]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

1. I am?
2. How is $499 more than $499?
3. That's a piss poor excuse. 2 months is nothing. HD DVD had to prove itself and it did with great quality. The second part speaks volumes about Blu-Ray. They told us how great it was and then half the studios ignored supporting the launch.

I'm not counting out Blu-Ray but to sit and think that HD DVD's inertia is just going to dissipate because of the Playstation is foolish.



I don't love HD DVD but I've always championed that it is the more sensible format. They delivered on time with decent media. Blu-Ray has not..period.



This should be interesting.

Let me beat down your puerile rebuttal with ease.

1. Having a studio advantage is only such when said studios actually deliver movies in quantity. Add up Universal and Warner movies and then compare then to how many movies Disney and Fox have delivered. Note the difference?

2. You thought wrong. I've been in IT sales for a while and Sony doesn't manufacture even half their optical drives. LG and Liteon are very good oem suppliers of optical drives. This helps both platforms

3. http://reviews.cnet.com/Panasonic_DM...2.html?tag=nav
clearly shows the $1300 Panasonic will require a firmware update for TrueHD and DTS-HD MA support. WTF how late is this player??

4. The context here is the effect on movie purchases PA. So while everyone gets a BD player not everyone purchasing a PS3 will have a HDTV or care about movies. I get your point but your context is a bit off. We're only concerned about the game consoles in the context of how many movies the owner buys. With a HD DVD add on it's primary function is to play movies. There's no Trojan Horse here.

5. Because the lens assembly uses simply optics and numerical aperture. You get DVD and Blue Laser support with a simple OPU and lens. In Blu-Ray you have to "graft" on Red Laser DVD support. Meaning it's more expensive. I would say your anecdotal evidence pales in comparison to actually understanding why HD DVD is cheaper. Go study some more

6. LOL..the same PSP that studios have abandoned. http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/6025/53/



7. My gf is a counselor with a Master's Degree with plenty of coursework in Psychology. I think I'll defer to her knowledge on the subject over yours. Thanks anyway. I'm not saying games screw your kid up but not every family wants game consoles

8. Sony/Columbia and Fox won't be over for a while. But if Lionsgate and Disney come over then that virtually guarantees HD DVD survival.

9. Please don't embarass yourself. You're not a "numbers" guy. Just stick with being the impassioned Pom Pom toting fan and let those who are a bit more articulate discuss the number. Just a friendly suggestion.

I'm not here to piss in your cheerios about Blu-Ray. HD DVD has its issues as well but they've clearly executed better than the BDA has. Reading these forums you get a sense of hope and great support for the format but if you are correct your statements should hold up under scrutiny. Some of you want a bully pulpit ..a mutal admiration society where everyone agrees with you statements. If that's case then just let people know that frank and open discussion is not wanted on these boards.

It sounds like to me that your girlfriend wears the pants in the house. Good Job!

[JTK]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I've seen the HD-XA1 multiple times. I've seen Serenity, Million Dollar Baby, The Last Samurai and plenty of trailer. Not extensive experience and I'll admit it but enough of a comparison to understand why the prevailing opinion is HD DVD has superior quality movies although Blu-Ray is making up for lost ground.

That doesn't make sense.

What you fail to mention here is having actually seen any Blu-Ray discs for yourself, as I expected.

In other words: You have not.

I'm really thinking that I'm going A2 in January because I like the idea of having the TrueHD support and HDMI into a AVR that I want next year as well.

My money will indeed be going into building a little setup. I've given Blu-Ray a chance to win my hear but they want more money than this other lady I've got my eye on.

I know about your forthcoming marriage and I know how expensive that can get, and that's all good , but how can you write all the things you have when it appears you've never even seen any Blu-Ray for yourself, including any of the many recent good discs and multiplatform discs?


You literally have no personal, firsthand frame of reference if you have yet to see any BD for yourself vs. parroting and believing other people's opinions off the Internet.

[Rob Tomlin]

You guys are going to turn this place into AVS pretty soon.

Why can't we discuss these things without getting so damn personal? I thought we were better than this over here. Perhaps not.

I am specifically referring to Kevin and Murch.

[Chris Beveridge]

This is the kind of thread that reminds me of AVS. But it is in the general discussion area so I figure it has a place.

Unfortunately for me, HD DVD is a dead format. I invest heavily in Japanese releases. That product is DOA there. It's had practically no releases for the month of October and the only things coming in November are from Warner - and they're being released on Blu-ray at the same time.

In the long run, every movie I will want to see will likely find its way to BD and be in my region to watch. I will have more hardware choices as well.

I am beyond pleased that people are enjoying their HD DVD players and movies. What needs to be remembered, after reading hmurchinsons post, is that there ARE those of us enjoying our BD movies as well. This month in particular has been a great selection and my previously bought titles are looking even better now in my Panasonic player.

Yes yes, complain about price. Go right ahead. I have none. The player that cost me twice as much is used ten times as much. I *cannot* use the Toshiba player for my DVD back catalog. The bizarre nature by which anime is made does not play well on that machine in how it handles pulldown. The Samsung actually handled it better and the Panasonic looks fantastic. But that's just me and my unique situation.

All I know is, when I sit down to watch an HD movie, I have far more selection with my Blu-ray player and all the high handedness of TrueHD doesn't mean jack to me. I've either got PCM or I'm listing to a solid DD track. I am in this "game" for the long haul and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. And contrary to what a lot of people think, based on their experiences either in-house with the Samsung or at retailers, I've got a great selection of movies and a ton of BD rentals in my queue.

I'm happy and I've still got November and December to look forward to with Fox titles, more BD-50's from two countries and plenty more announcements on the way.