Bitstreaming DTS-MA and True HD make a big difference?

[TwoTwo]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Not a fair comparison if you're comparing analog to digital audio over HDMI. With analog, you are relying on the Oppo's DAC's w/no upsampling whereas with bitstreaming/PCM, you are using the Denon AVR's DAC's and upsampling (AL24). Actually, you pretty much agreed with me that the Oppo's analog output isn't anything to write home about.

In most AVR's, the multichannel inputs are merely passed to the amp with no modifications or DSP done by the AVR.

You seemed to be familiar with Denon's product. What's your thought on the DVD-2500BTCI that also has AL24 but only has HDMI as output. Also, do you have to rely on Denon AVR's to take advantage of the AL24 upsampling?

[Hammie]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Not a fair comparison if you're comparing analog to digital audio over HDMI. With analog, you are relying on the Oppo's DAC's w/no upsampling whereas with bitstreaming/PCM, you are using the Denon AVR's DAC's and upsampling (AL24). Actually, you pretty much agreed with me that the Oppo's analog output isn't anything to write home about.

In most AVR's, the multichannel inputs are merely passed to the amp with no modifications or DSP done by the AVR.

Well, I'm actually talking about PCM over HDMI not the analog outs of the Oppo. I thought that also avoided processing and went straight to the amp section in a receiver.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by TwoTwo

You seemed to be familiar with Denon's product. What's your thought on the DVD-2500BTCI that also has AL24 but only has HDMI as output. Also, do you have to rely on Denon AVR's to take advantage of the AL24 upsampling?

Do not buy the 2500! It is an upgraded Panny BD30 and won't even make a good digital transport as it doesn't have video source direct.

If a Denon BD player features AL24 upsampling, the benefit is only for the analog output (upsampling is a final product and not meant to be reprocessed). The 2500 does not have AL24 upsampling:

http://usa.denon.com/3951.asp?archiv...mageField.y=11

In my mind, any of Denon's AVR's that are worth owning have some flavor of AL24 that will make any BD player sound great as long as the connection is HDMI. I don't own a Denon AVR but my 3800 player has AL24 for audiophile quality CD playback connected via analog out.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

Well, I'm actually talking about PCM over HDMI not the analog outs of the Oppo. I thought that also avoided processing and went straight to the amp section in a receiver.

Ok, I think we're finally on the same page. Any PCM coming from your Oppo player is raw and will be manipulated by DSP, bass management, etc. by your Denon AVR. In other words, Audyssey settings would affect PCM from the Oppo. However, the same manipulations would be applied to a bitstream signal. I'm still not sure how you can attribute the Oppo's decoding as "bright" since the PCM, as decoded, is full range for all channels. Any characteristics you hear in the sound will be the responsibility of your AVR. Only exception would be if you were outputting via the multichannel analog out as I had assumed earlier.

[Hammie]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Ok, I think we're finally on the same page. Any PCM coming from your Oppo player is raw and will be manipulated by DSP, bass management, etc. by your Denon AVR. In other words, Audyssey settings would affect PCM from the Oppo. However, the same manipulations would be applied to a bitstream signal. I'm still not sure how you can attribute the Oppo's decoding as "bright" since the PCM, as decoded, is full range for all channels. Any characteristics you hear in the sound will be the responsibility of your AVR. Only exception would be if you were outputting via the multichannel analog out as I had assumed earlier.

It would be a miracle if it was outputting through the analogs since I do not have any cables plugged into them.

I'm really not sure why the difference, just relaying what my ears experienced. I experienced the same with DSD and my SA-CD's. DSD over HDMI was warmer, while PCM over HDMI was brighter for my SA-CD's.

[nismo604]

coming from a PS3 to my Panasonic BD35, the only difference I heard was TrueHD seemed to be louder and you can see the receiver adjust dialnorm levels. DTS-MA was the same as sending it PCM. It seems the PS3 doesn't account for dialnorm and typically outputs TrueHD 4db lower than DTS-MA. Bitstreaming to the receiver allows it to know what codec it's receiving and properly processes the dialnorm, where as sending PCM it only sees PCM.

Speaking of DAC's, if your sending your PCM signal over HDMI the DAC's in your player will not be used, only the receivers DAC's will be used same as bitstreaming.

Player's DAC only come into play when outputting with your multi-channel outs, receiver DAC don't come into play here.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

It would be a miracle if it was outputting through the analogs since I do not have any cables plugged into them.

I'm really not sure why the difference, just relaying what my ears experienced. I experienced the same with DSD and my SA-CD's. DSD over HDMI was warmer, while PCM over HDMI was brighter for my SA-CD's.

I think I figured it out. You need to take DSD out of "Direct" mode in order to do apples to apples comparison on your Denon AVR. Of course that would negate the whole value of your 3808 AVR being able to take DSD Direct (not to mention physically impossible).

The above is the exception since it involves DSD and not every AVR is capable of taking DSD directly to the DAC's. Have your Oppo decode a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track and compare against the AVR decoding and let me know if you still feel the Oppo is "too bright."

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by ridergroov1

Hi folks. I have a PS3 for my blu ray player which cannot bitstream DTS-MA or TrueHD audio. It decodes then passes it to the receiver. Would getting a device that can bitstream it right to the receiver make a big difference?

Doesn't the PS3 bitstream TrueHD? I thought it was only DTS HD MA that the original PS3 couldn't stream.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by wallendo

Doesn't the PS3 bitstream TrueHD? I thought it was only DTS HD MA that the original PS3 couldn't stream.

PS3 "fat" form factor cannot bitstream but decodes all and sends PCM over HDMI. PS3 "slim" form factor can bitstream all or decode. ridergroov1 has the "fat" PS3.