Bitstreaming DTS-MA and True HD make a big difference?

[ridergroov1]

Hi folks. I have a PS3 for my blu ray player which cannot bitstream DTS-MA or TrueHD audio. It decodes then passes it to the receiver. Would getting a device that can bitstream it right to the receiver make a big difference?

[fuzzynutkila]

The new Ps3 's can now bitstream those tracks.

[ridergroov1]

Right I'm aware. I have the original PS3 which can't. I'm wondering if there is a big difference from decoding it on the PS3 and sending it to the receiver compared to bitstreaming to the receiver directly.

[Irrob]

No

[Zman2k2]

Some say yes, and some say no. To be honest, your question is right up there with which codec sounds better. You'll get various answers from people.

[Kryptonic]

Usually, the receiver will have a better decoder. But in all reality, there's not much of a difference.

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Usually, the receiver will have a better decoder.

...no such thing.

They decode identical.

What the receiver decides to do with a Bitstream vs. PCM signal is a different story.

[ridergroov1]

Yeah I kind of figured that I would get different responses but I thought maybe there was a definitive technical yes or no. Thanks to all for your input. I guess I'll stick with my setup for now.

[EWL5]

The only possible difference would be if you hear jitter from sending PCM over HDMI to your AVR. If you don't, then all the benefits and features of the AVR are available to a PCM signal aside from decoding (ie. automatic calibration settings, crossover, delay, etc.)

I could not detect any jitter when sending PCM from a PS3, Denon 3800, or Oppo BD player. My opinion is that you're fine with sending PCM. Many are hung up on seeing the "TrueHD" or "Master Audio" signal appear on their AVR display but I'm enjoying the same lossless sound that they are.

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Usually, the receiver will have a better decoder. But in all reality, there's not much of a difference.

Decoding is basically uncompressing the file. It either uncompresses the file or not.

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by ridergroov1

Yeah I kind of figured that I would get different responses but I thought maybe there was a definitive technical yes or no. Thanks to all for your input. I guess I'll stick with my setup for now.

There's a great thread on the subject with all the technical information you will ever need: Player vs Receiver decoding

[Infrared Sight]

I do have my player bitstreaming to my receiver and the one cool thing is having the lights on the receiver showing you the tracks that are playing. I would rather have it do it that way so I know the audio track is the correct one as well. I don't believe it will make a noticeable difference either way from bitstreaming or internal decoding.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by Infrared Sight

I do have my player bitstreaming to my receiver and the one cool thing is having the lights on the receiver showing you the tracks that are playing. I would rather have it do it that way so I know the audio track is the correct one as well. I don't believe it will make a noticeable difference either way from bitstreaming or internal decoding.

Considering that most BD movies have only one lossless track and that it normally plays by default (Warner, I'm looking at you!), I'm not worried about what's being played. DTS and Dolby can play their games but lossless sound quality has more to do with how the track was mixed than the actual codec.

[Infrared Sight]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Considering that most BD movies have only one lossless track and that it normally plays by default (Warner, I'm looking at you!), I'm not worried about what's being played. DTS and Dolby can play their games but lossless sound quality has more to do with how the track was mixed than the actual codec.

This studio is the main reason I bitstream. I just always want to be sure I am getting the lossless track that's why I bitstream it. Plus, I love getting the lights on my receiver to light up. I love the lights. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

[rpatt]

Wouldn't it depend on which device had the better DACs?

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by rpatt

Wouldn't it depend on which device had the better DACs?

DAC's play a big role but they don't tell the big story. Here is what determines "good sound" in my opinion:

1) Soundtrack as mixed by the studio. I'll use a video analogy since most people gravitate towards video first: amateurs like me can take high def videos but I'll probably introduce too much lens flare or won't use enough light (introducing lots of video noise) that Steven Spielberg would be able to tame in an instant.

Mix is first and foremost. Garbage in = garbage out. Everything below assumes the same soundtrack is being played.

2) Your speakers - Let's face it. I can have the best audio equipment in the world and the best reference soundtrack but if the final element in the chain for sound is shoddy, I'm not going to hear a difference. HTIB, tiny Bose, and golf-ball sized speakers are probably the single worst explanation for "I can't tell the difference b/w lossless and lossy"!

3) DAC's - SNR and other key elements are what we should be looking at when making baseline comparisons. Expectations must be tempered by the next element.

4) Upsampling - this is almost as important as the DAC's. My Oppo player uses decent DAC's but loses out to my Denon 3800 because of AL24 24-bit upsampling. This gives my music a warmer, more analog sound on the Denon.

5) Amplifier - 1, 3, and 4 all deal with the source. Dedicated amps rated at the same wattage/channel as an AVR normally do better. Monoblocks even better since they don't sip from the same "power well."

6) Signal path and isolation - many audiophiles believe that sections in the BD player dedicated to audio should be isolated from the video. Video sections tend to introduce noise when listening to CD or other music-only sources. I haven't been able to hear the difference with video circuitry turned off but it doesn't "hurt."

Unfortunately, a lot of these factors are interactive so if you upgrade one element, another element that previously performed worse/same may now actually be better! The only solution, unfortunately, is to make sure all your equipment is of decent quality and that there isn't a weak link in the chain. Usually this equates to $$$.

Did I miss anything?

[Hammie]

I agree that when you uncompress the file it should be identical.

However, I also agree that the electronics in the devices can affect the sound. We always say this when people are asking about receivers and amps and speakers. It only makes sense that BD players can also contribute to this.

This is why I believe a BD player doing the decoding can sound different than a receiver or pre/pro doing the decoding. As a test, I switched between my Oppo doing the decoding and my Denon receiver doing the decoding. They were VERY close, but I felt when the Oppo did the decoding, it was a little brighter. My Denon doing the decoding sounded a little warmer to my ears. YMMV.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

This is why I believe a BD player doing the decoding can sound different than a receiver or pre/pro doing the decoding. As a test, I switched between my Oppo doing the decoding and my Denon receiver doing the decoding. They were VERY close, but I felt when the Oppo did the decoding, it was a little brighter. My Denon doing the decoding sounded a little warmer to my ears. YMMV.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the only difference b/w a player decoding and sending PCM over HDMI vs bitstreaming is jitter (clocks b/w the player and AVR not being in sync). If you are describing sound being brighter, then you are suggesting frequencies are getting exaggerated at the expense of others. Was the comparison level matched so that the tracks were being played back at the same volume? Perhaps DIALNORM played a role when you bitstreamed?

[Hammie]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the only difference b/w a player decoding and sending PCM over HDMI vs bitstreaming is jitter (clocks b/w the player and AVR not being in sync). If you are describing sound being brighter, then you are suggesting frequencies are getting exaggerated at the expense of others. Was the comparison level matched so that the tracks were being played back at the same volume? Perhaps DIALNORM played a role when you bitstreamed?

Since dialnorm doesn't affect anything except volume, I do not know how it would make one sound a little more "tinny" (not really the right word). Basically, I felt the highs were a little exaggerated when the Oppo did the decoding.

Now that I think about it, I need to look into whether Audyssey affects MULTI CH IN on my Denon. If that is the case, then Audyssey is the difference in what I am hearing.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by louhamilton

Since dialnorm doesn't affect anything except volume, I do not know how it would make one sound a little more "tinny" (not really the right word). Basically, I felt the highs were a little exaggerated when the Oppo did the decoding.

Now that I think about it, I need to look into whether Audyssey affects MULTI CH IN on my Denon. If that is the case, then Audyssey is the difference in what I am hearing.

Not a fair comparison if you're comparing analog to digital audio over HDMI. With analog, you are relying on the Oppo's DAC's w/no upsampling whereas with bitstreaming/PCM, you are using the Denon AVR's DAC's and upsampling (AL24). Actually, you pretty much agreed with me that the Oppo's analog output isn't anything to write home about.

In most AVR's, the multichannel inputs are merely passed to the amp with no modifications or DSP done by the AVR.