A question regarding 1080/60p and 1080/24p - Blu-ray Forum

mainman · 11-21-2006, 11:53 PM

I just cant figure it out.

I am reading in forums, that some people wish the PS3 could output 1080/24p.

Why do they want this? I mean isnt 1080/60p better?

Or do they mean something else? Like 1080p/24hz?
Is 1080p/24hz the best quality?

Could someone explain this to me, or provide a link or something?

And the following are all in the BD spec right?
1080/60p and 1080/24, 1080p/24hz and 1080p/60 hz.

Thanks.

phloyd · 11-22-2006, 12:29 AM

24 frame per second is the film frame rate and most (all?) film sourced Bluray discs are encoded at that frame rate.

60 frames per second is the video display rate on most TVs.

Since 60/24 is not an integer number, there is a motion artifact associate with going from 24 to 60 frames per second. Since they usually show one frame twice and the next frame 3 times (and repeat).

People would prefer to have 24 fps output to avoid this artifact. The 24 can be multiplied to 48, 96 or even 120 without adding such artifacts.

Deciazulado · 11-22-2006, 01:07 AM

In simple terms, a 24p output into a monitor or projector that can display it, gives smoother motion for 99.99% of movies.

(There's a couple films and some TV programming made in true 30fps, and some made for Europe and Australia programming made in true 25fps, and of course 50i/60i videotape, which would use the 60Hz framerate. But the rest is all 24 fps film) (Not counting silent films, of course)

mainman · 11-22-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phloyd

Since 60/24 is not an integer number, there is a motion artifact associate with going from 24 to 60 frames per second. Since they usually show one frame twice and the next frame 3 times (and repeat).

Does the PS3 do this as well with BD movies? Or does it show 24fps?

PurpleAardvark · 11-26-2006, 07:02 AM

I believe PS3 out puts at 1080p60. I have not heard any thing different. The XRB LCD do accept 1080p24 and 1080p60. I get my 52" on the 4th with the sony player. Hand delievered to me by a sony rep. The makes me a happy purple aardvark. I would tell the story about the purple aardvark but it might get me in trouble.

Deciazulado · 11-26-2006, 07:12 AM

Purple-ray!

SDK · 11-26-2006, 08:26 AM

Is there a difference in displaying VS outputting?

Say PLAYER outputs at 24fps, however TV displays at 60fps (=60Hz), so the TV converts 24fps -> 60fps internally, anyway resulting in that "motion artifact". Therefore, if you want to see "motion artifact"-free (genuine 24fps) video you need a TV that can run at 24fps (=24Hz)

Deciazulado · 11-26-2006, 09:02 AM

Depends of which output your displays accepts (24p, 60p, or 60i) (and of course what your player is capable of spitting out

) where the conversion is done, but yes you need a 24p output and a 24p display if you want film motion to be artifact free.

A player's 24p output for movies goes into a display that accepts 24p and refreshes/displays it at 48/72/96/(or in future displays, 120) progressive "flashes" per second.
If your display can't accept/refresh 24p, or you don't have a 24p player, or if the BD is from videotaped 60i content, you would use the player's 60 Hz output (be it 60i or 60p) which will be displayed at 60 (or in future displays, 120) progressive "flashes" per second (unless you have an interlaced CRT HDTV which would display the output as fields (half frames) in 60 interlaced "flashes' per second)

24 fps movies shown in a 60Hz output have a 3:2 cadence of repeats of the frames and will show judder when things move. If you've never noticed it before when watching NTSC DVDs don't start looking for it

so you can still enjoy 60Hz only displays

SDK · 11-26-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

(or in future displays, 120) progressive "flashes" per second

Thanks so much for your explanation!

Added to my HDTV buying checklist...

WriteSimply · 11-26-2006, 02:35 PM

You don't really need a 120Hz display. Just as long as your display can do 1080p24, 1080i60, or 1080p30 is good enough for BD.

120Hz display may come in play when BD does 3D, where each eye gets alternate videos flashing at 1080p30.

fuad

dialog_gvf · 11-26-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

120Hz display may come in play when BD does 3D, where each eye gets alternate videos flashing at 1080p30.

120Hz would be for 3D@60p, no?

Gary

WriteSimply · 11-26-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

120Hz would be for 3D@60p, no?

Gary

Theoretically. All this talk is theoretical, just in case people are wondering. Wouldn't it be nice though?

fuad

Deciazulado · 11-26-2006, 05:04 PM

The other advantage of 120 Hz is that 12, 15, 20, 24 30, 40, and 60 framerates all can be displayed without motion artifacts, important in a world full of different, mixed frame rates. Even 25 and 50 will have smaller or little judder, at that refresh rate.

PurpleAardvark · 11-26-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

You don't really need a 120Hz display. Just as long as your display can do 1080p24, 1080i60, or 1080p30 is good enough for BD.

120Hz display may come in play when BD does 3D, where each eye gets alternate videos flashing at 1080p30.

fuad

Their is no tv that can do 1080p30 at the moment, only 1080p24 and 1080p60.

WriteSimply · 11-26-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurpleAardvark

Their is no tv that can do 1080p30 at the moment, only 1080p24 and 1080p60.

Well that is still fine. That means the frames are repeated twice.

One of these days you have to explain who/what Le Aadvark Pourpre is.

fuad

emilsjr · 11-26-2006, 06:42 PM

Is there a list of tvs that accept 1080p24 anywhere?

mainman · 11-26-2006, 07:59 PM

Maybe a stupid question but,

What happens if a BD player that does 1080/60p, like for instance the PS3, but you have a 1080/24p display?

Is it possible that you just dont get any picture?

Deciazulado · 11-26-2006, 09:40 PM

The player will also do 60i, and the 24p display will accept 60i and maybe 60p too.

60 Hz is the standard

SDK · 11-27-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurpleAardvark

Their is no tv that can do 1080p30 at the moment, only 1080p24 and 1080p60.

Are they displaying "true 1080p24" or convert 1080p24 -> 1080p60 internally?

What should one check in the TV's manual to be sure the feature is in there? The input signal or/and the refresh rates, or just the input signal? (assuming 1080i is not interesting)

To get 1080p/24fps:
48?/72/96/120Hz must be mentioned in Manual's specifications for refresh rates
AND
1080p/24fps must be mentioned in Manual's specifications for input signal

To get 1080p/30fps:
60/90/120Hz @ refresh
AND
1080p/30fps @ signal

To get 1080p/60fps:
60/120Hz @ refresh
AND
1080p/60fps @ signal

PurpleAardvark · 11-27-2006, 03:02 PM

Sony 40-52 XBR 2 or 3 LCD's will take a 1080p24 signal with out converting as will the pioneer elite tv's (can't rember the model number) with out converting. However you are correct in saying that most 1080p tvs are at 60hrz or 60fps. As time progresses you will see more 1080p24 tv's come out, but for right now they have a hefty pricetag for thier size.

11-21-2006, 11:53 PM	#1
mainman Senior Member Member since:Jan 2006	A question regarding 1080/60p and 1080/24p I just cant figure it out. I am reading in forums, that some people wish the PS3 could output 1080/24p. Why do they want this? I mean isnt 1080/60p better? Or do they mean something else? Like 1080p/24hz? Is 1080p/24hz the best quality? Could someone explain this to me, or provide a link or something? And the following are all in the BD spec right? 1080/60p and 1080/24, 1080p/24hz and 1080p/60 hz. Thanks.

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11-22-2006, 12:29 AM	#2
phloyd Blu-ray Guru Member since:Dec 2003 Location:California Trading Score:5	24 frame per second is the film frame rate and most (all?) film sourced Bluray discs are encoded at that frame rate. 60 frames per second is the video display rate on most TVs. Since 60/24 is not an integer number, there is a motion artifact associate with going from 24 to 60 frames per second. Since they usually show one frame twice and the next frame 3 times (and repeat). People would prefer to have 24 fps output to avoid this artifact. The 24 can be multiplied to 48, 96 or even 120 without adding such artifacts.

11-22-2006, 01:07 AM	#3
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1161 Blu-ray collection:7052 DVD collection:4062	In simple terms, a 24p output into a monitor or projector that can display it, gives smoother motion for 99.99% of movies. (There's a couple films and some TV programming made in true 30fps, and some made for Europe and Australia programming made in true 25fps, and of course 50i/60i videotape, which would use the 60Hz framerate. But the rest is all 24 fps film) (Not counting silent films, of course)

11-26-2006, 07:02 AM	#5
PurpleAardvark Active Member Member since:Jul 2006 Location:Cross Plains, WI	I believe PS3 out puts at 1080p60. I have not heard any thing different. The XRB LCD do accept 1080p24 and 1080p60. I get my 52" on the 4th with the sony player. Hand delievered to me by a sony rep. The makes me a happy purple aardvark. I would tell the story about the purple aardvark but it might get me in trouble.

11-26-2006, 07:12 AM	#6
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1161 Blu-ray collection:7052 DVD collection:4062	Purple-ray!

11-26-2006, 08:26 AM	#7
SDK Member Member since:Nov 2006	Is there a difference in displaying VS outputting? Say PLAYER outputs at 24fps, however TV displays at 60fps (=60Hz), so the TV converts 24fps -> 60fps internally, anyway resulting in that "motion artifact". Therefore, if you want to see "motion artifact"-free (genuine 24fps) video you need a TV that can run at 24fps (=24Hz)

11-26-2006, 09:02 AM	#8
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1161 Blu-ray collection:7052 DVD collection:4062	Depends of which output your displays accepts (24p, 60p, or 60i) (and of course what your player is capable of spitting out ) where the conversion is done, but yes you need a 24p output and a 24p display if you want film motion to be artifact free. A player's 24p output for movies goes into a display that accepts 24p and refreshes/displays it at 48/72/96/(or in future displays, 120) progressive "flashes" per second. If your display can't accept/refresh 24p, or you don't have a 24p player, or if the BD is from videotaped 60i content, you would use the player's 60 Hz output (be it 60i or 60p) which will be displayed at 60 (or in future displays, 120) progressive "flashes" per second (unless you have an interlaced CRT HDTV which would display the output as fields (half frames) in 60 interlaced "flashes' per second) 24 fps movies shown in a 60Hz output have a 3:2 cadence of repeats of the frames and will show judder when things move. If you've never noticed it before when watching NTSC DVDs don't start looking for it so you can still enjoy 60Hz only displays

11-26-2006, 02:35 PM	#10
WriteSimply Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Sep 2006 Location:Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia	You don't really need a 120Hz display. Just as long as your display can do 1080p24, 1080i60, or 1080p30 is good enough for BD. 120Hz display may come in play when BD does 3D, where each eye gets alternate videos flashing at 1080p30. fuad

11-26-2006, 05:04 PM	#13
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1161 Blu-ray collection:7052 DVD collection:4062	The other advantage of 120 Hz is that 12, 15, 20, 24 30, 40, and 60 framerates all can be displayed without motion artifacts, important in a world full of different, mixed frame rates. Even 25 and 50 will have smaller or little judder, at that refresh rate.

11-26-2006, 06:42 PM	#16
emilsjr Member Member since:Jun 2006	Is there a list of tvs that accept 1080p24 anywhere?

11-26-2006, 07:59 PM	#17
mainman Senior Member Member since:Jan 2006	Maybe a stupid question but, What happens if a BD player that does 1080/60p, like for instance the PS3, but you have a 1080/24p display? Is it possible that you just dont get any picture?

11-26-2006, 09:40 PM	#18
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1161 Blu-ray collection:7052 DVD collection:4062	The player will also do 60i, and the 24p display will accept 60i and maybe 60p too. 60 Hz is the standard

11-27-2006, 03:02 PM	#20
PurpleAardvark Active Member Member since:Jul 2006 Location:Cross Plains, WI	Sony 40-52 XBR 2 or 3 LCD's will take a 1080p24 signal with out converting as will the pioneer elite tv's (can't rember the model number) with out converting. However you are correct in saying that most 1080p tvs are at 60hrz or 60fps. As time progresses you will see more 1080p24 tv's come out, but for right now they have a hefty pricetag for thier size.

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