Technology of games (newly created out of Killzone 3 discussion)

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Not going to happen. The 2005 pre-rendered clip was well outside the Playstation 3s rendering capability. Killzone 2 looked gorgous but definutely no up to snuff with the ridiculous expectations Sony gave them in 2005.

Unless Killzone 3 comes out on the Playstation 4 it won't match those visuals.

TBH, we don't know if that's true or not. If some PS3 developers take a completely different route with rendering, it MIGHT be possible. They would most likely have to leave the rasterization process behind and head into Ray-tracing territory. In that case, they could use RSX (GPU) as a GPGPU. Each SPU has the ability to setup 3 million triangles at 1080p. There are 6 SPUs at the disposal of developers. It could have some VERY interesting results.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

TBH, we don't know if that's true or not. If some PS3 developers take a completely different route with rendering, it MIGHT be possible. They would most likely have to leave the rasterization process behind and head into Ray-tracing territory. In that case, they could use RSX (GPU) as a GPGPU. Each SPU has the ability to setup 3 million triangles at 1080p. There are 6 SPUs at the disposal of developers. It could have some VERY interesting results.

RSX doesn't have OpenCL or CUDA, neither does it have unified shaders which would make GPGPU much harder than it needs to be.

PS3 isn't going to do serious raytracing, not at any HD resolutions, maybe at SD Sony can demo it, but not at 720p or higher.

I'm not saying we have reached the pinnacle of PS3 graphics, far from it, just that it will be minor gains over the years that add up to a big difference rather than big jumps we have witnessed recently with GoW3/Uncharted 2 or Killzone 2 last year.

Also you can't use SPUs to push triangles all the time as it would leave them with no time to do logic which is their big strength. Advanced physics and AI is starting to become possible on Cell along with advanced post-processing so it would be better to leave the RSX to push the pixels and have Cell being used for specific tasks that it and it alone can do.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Maximus

RSX doesn't have OpenCL or CUDA, neither does it have unified shaders which would make GPGPU much harder than it needs to be.

PS3 isn't going to do serious raytracing, not at any HD resolutions, maybe at SD Sony can demo it, but not at 720p or higher.

I'm not saying we have reached the pinnacle of PS3 graphics, far from it, just that it will be minor gains over the years that add up to a big difference rather than big jumps we have witnessed recently with GoW3/Uncharted 2 or Killzone 2 last year.

Also you can't use SPUs to push triangles all the time as it would leave them with no time to do logic which is their big strength. Advanced physics and AI is starting to become possible on Cell along with advanced post-processing so it would be better to leave the RSX to push the pixels and have Cell being used for specific tasks that it and it alone can do.

This is from Mike Acton (Insomniac):

The Cell isn't really going to beat the RSX at its own game. As Rolf N said, dedicated h/w is good at what it does. However, it gets in to a gray area when you start talking about other things, like more complex post processing (e.g. building sum tables). To answer your question - It's not "impossible" for the Cell to do the work of the RSX. It's just not a very good use of the h/w. There *is* another side to the story though - if you start talking about rendering that's not based on triangle rasterization, then you open up the door for the Cell. e.g. ray-tracing. But again, you don't exactly want the rsx just sitting idle, either.An interesting experiment for someone might be to try and use the RSX as GPGPU and the SPUs for rendering via ray-tracing or something different. Or some other weirder mix.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...48&postcount=3

Mike thinks it's interesting as well. Also, according to Intel's demos, they can do a ray-traced game at 1280x720 with somewhere between 6 and 8 cores. I think it's very possible at 720p, but NOT 1080p.

[Maximus]

Intel say on 6-8 of their cores, not 6-8 SIMD cores which the Cell has. If the Cell had 6-8 PPE cores then it would be possible, but IBM demonstrated GT5: Prologue running on 3 PS3s raytraced in 720p and it was chugging a bit.

I think PS4 will bring about 3D and raytracing and the PS3 is ever so close to doing both very well, but it is probably one generation away.

What is looking good is moving post-processing and lighting from RSX onto SPEs allowing more pixels to pushed and getting 1080p native or 720p60 native with all the awesome effects. I think GoW3 is pioneering for this, so if you haven't played it yet, you need to!

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Ray-tracing can work a lot better on an SIMD processor. There are papers on the matter to that affect. There is one paper that compares the performance of 1 SPU to a x86 and PowerPC processor. The performance drops off greatly after awhile due to the code making the PPU upload each job seperately to the SPU instead multiple jobs double buffered from DMA calls. However, it was over 2.5x faster at the beginning.
http://lukasz.dk/files/lzrt-performance.pdf

Here is a paper on ray-tracing at 1280x720 on the PS3. It's an interesting read as well.
http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~olano/635s07/lohr1.pdf

Finally, below is a patent on "ray-tracing with depth buffered display". It talks about using a combination of ray-traced and rasterized data for a comparison process. I wish I could find more info on it. I know you have access. Could you PM me with further patent info or something? I would really appreciate it!
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/74...scription.html

BTW, I LOVE God of War 3 (it was a day 1 for me)! I can't wait to see the post mortem on it! Last year's GDC presentation said they were only using 5 SPUs! It's sick!

I, also, agree that rasterization will, in the end, be the order of the day. It would just be interesting, if it wasn't. Even a few mini-games to use as working models would be great.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by James Hetfield

Remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr8SOM3nv68

Another example of pre-rendered marketing. It seems every console (with the possible exception of the Wii) severly oversells its graphics. Frankly I think games like Uncharted Among Theives and God of War 3 are as good as this generation is going to get. Which is why it frustrates me that Sony and Microsoft won't lift a finger on a new console generation. Its time

[Shin-Ra]

Frankly I think games like Uncharted Among Theives and God of War 3 are as good as this generation is going to get.

You can't have been following previous generations, or even this one very closely then. Even Uncharted 2 would have benefitted hugely from some of the tech ideas that went into God of War III.

Which is why it frustrates me that Sony and Microsoft won't lift a finger on a new console generation. Its time

Time to shift to new hardware, leaving most studios behind because they're still struggling to reach Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, God of War III levels of quality, not through hardware limitations but lack of education, experimentation and production efficiency. Dev/publishers can't afford to rebuild now, hire and organise more staff to cope with higher fidelity assets and the engines enabling them. This generation needs to catch up, mature before enough of the industry's ready for a full generation shift.

[supersix4]

Originally Posted by Shin-Ra

You can't have been following previous generations, or even this one very closely then. Even Uncharted 2 would have benefitted hugely from some of the tech ideas that went into God of War III.


Time to shift to new hardware, leaving most studios behind because they're still struggling to reach Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, God of War III levels of quality, not through hardware limitations but lack of education, experimentation and production efficiency. Dev/publishers can't afford to rebuild now, hire and organise more staff to cope with higher fidelity assets and the engines enabling them. This generation needs to catch up, mature before enough of the industry's ready for a full generation shift.

I agree, its ever changing and if you just look at systems in general the early stuff(graphics wise) is always behind when a system is coming to the end of its run..

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Shin-Ra

Time to shift to new hardware, leaving most studios behind because they're still struggling to reach Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, God of War III levels of quality, not through hardware limitations but lack of education, experimentation and production efficiency. Dev/publishers can't afford to rebuild now, hire and organise more staff to cope with higher fidelity assets and the engines enabling them. This generation needs to catch up, mature before enough of the industry's ready for a full generation shift.

The Xbox 360 came out only 4 years after the first Xbox. I think its time to at least start the planning stages of the next generation. Id guess 2012 is the probable timeframe for the next generation of consoles. The next generation should be capable of delivering Toy Story quality graphics in 3D Full HD. Thats something well beyond what we currently enjoy and is something I think should be at least planned towards right now.

While the studios deny it I believe that plans are being started behind the scenes. I have no proof of this but it makes perfect sense.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

The Xbox 360 came out only 4 years after the first Xbox. I think its time to at least start the planning stages of the next generation. Id guess 2012 is the probable timeframe for the next generation of consoles. The next generation should be capable of delivering Toy Story quality graphics in 3D Full HD. Thats something well beyond what we currently enjoy and is something I think should be at least planned towards right now.

While the studios deny it I believe that plans are being started behind the scenes. I have no proof of this but it makes perfect sense.

Dude, MS had to come out with another console 4 years after the Xbox launched for two main reasons.
1. They were eating $150/unit sold, due to Intel and Nvidia pricing.
2. They needed to get a jump on the next generation over Sony at all cost.

There is difference in wanting something and demanding it in the face of logic. It just doesn't make much sense to demand new consoles now. Plus, the PS3 is showing some things beyond high end PC games NOW (advanced character models, advanced animations, discrete 7.1 audio, MLAA that can equal up to 64xAA in places)! Just try to enjoy the ride and appreciate added value (via more time with it and feature sets) this gen brings to your console purchase.

Edit: BTW, according to the GDC GoW3 presentation, it was using 5 SPUs out of 6. I must say I would be completely happy if they couldn't go one step further, but that just isn't the case.

[partridge]

There is no need for new consoles anytime soon; sony and MS are happy with their products, the developers are happy with their development kits.

It already costs an absolute fortune to develop a top quality AAA title for either machine; no developer wants to scrap their dev kits and tools for a new console!

And to be perfectly honest; what would a new console offer? We already have HD graphics, HD audio, DLC, online gaming like never before and both consoles give their owners more than just gaming.

I fail to see what a new set of consoles will really offer? We've seen with the Wii that HD graphics aren't the big deal MS and Sony thought they were; which is why both of them are working on new control systems.

PS3 and Xbox360 are here for many more years yet; both systems are upgradeable in all manner of ways; no one in the industry is asking for (or wants) new hardware.

Even Nintendo denies a Wii HD is being developed.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Shin-Ra

You can't have been following previous generations, or even this one very closely then. Even Uncharted 2 would have benefitted hugely from some of the tech ideas that went into God of War III.


Time to shift to new hardware, leaving most studios behind because they're still struggling to reach Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, God of War III levels of quality, not through hardware limitations but lack of education, experimentation and production efficiency. Dev/publishers can't afford to rebuild now, hire and organise more staff to cope with higher fidelity assets and the engines enabling them. This generation needs to catch up, mature before enough of the industry's ready for a full generation shift.

Agreed.

I think the third parties will reach the level of GoW3 and stop innovating to bring down their budgets and turn a profit for the gen. I mean someone like EA is struggling this gen with massive budgets and platform split so they are losing money. One way for them to make money is to ask MS/Sony to delay the introduction of the next gen while they get a handle on this one and turn a profit, moving to the next gen any time within the next year would be highly destructive to the industry as third parties have barely caught up with the current gen.

There is no telling what Sony's first party will do, as many have seen there seems to be no limit to what they can achieve on PS3.

[partridge]

Look at the number of developers that have closed shop over the last couple of years. As you say, even the established publishers are finding it's not always easy to turn a profit.

And from a gamer point of view; I got used to paying around £25 for a PS2 game, now I'm lucky if I see a new PS3 game for less than £40, so I'm in no hurry at all for a new console that might cost me even more!!

I'll surprised if we hear anything about new consoles within the next 2-3 years; there's just no call for one from anyone inside or outside the industry.

MS are reinvigorationg the 360 with Natal and Sony, likewise, with Move; with all the money they've invested in these new control systems, neither are going to replace their consoles anytime soon.

A better game isn't necessarily a better looking game. The current crop of consoles are plenty powerful enough for the forseeable future.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by partridge

There is no need for new consoles anytime soon; sony and MS are happy with their products, the developers are happy with their development kits.

It already costs an absolute fortune to develop a top quality AAA title for either machine; no developer wants to scrap their dev kits and tools for a new console!

And to be perfectly honest; what would a new console offer? We already have HD graphics, HD audio, DLC, online gaming like never before and both consoles give their owners more than just gaming.

I fail to see what a new set of consoles will really offer? We've seen with the Wii that HD graphics aren't the big deal MS and Sony thought they were; which is why both of them are working on new control systems.

PS3 and Xbox360 are here for many more years yet; both systems are upgradeable in all manner of ways; no one in the industry is asking for (or wants) new hardware.

Even Nintendo denies a Wii HD is being developed.

I mostly agree with everything except the part in bold. That part still remains to be seen. With lifecycles of around a decade and HDTV purchases continuing to rise, more and more Wii households are purchasing HD consoles. In other words, this may be close to Sony's and MS's projected adoption rate.

Also, the motion control system from Sony is the result of EyeToy projects with bulbous wands over 6 years back. I doubt one could logically argue that the Move system started because of the Wiimote and sensor success. I believe it could be logically argued that the Wii's success lit a fire under the launch of Move, though.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by partridge

And to be perfectly honest; what would a new console offer? We already have HD graphics, HD audio, DLC, online gaming like never before and both consoles give their owners more than just gaming.

1. Only a fraction of current generation of console games actually use HD audio in gameplay because of limitations in processing.

2. The vast majority of games are rendered in 720p 2D because higher resolution and/or 3D support inevidibly take up the limited processing of the console.

3. In terms of graphical detail there is a long way to advance. Even the best games of this console generation can't match even the worst looking CG movies. Low budget computer animated television series are able to destroy the best games in graphical detail, anti-lacing, and lighting.

There is alot of room to advance and advance is what they should. Killzone 3 should be a launch title for the Playstation 4 that way we can finally match that prerendered trailer from E3 2005.

[airwedge1]

no way they could launch the ps4 any time soon if it were to change as much as it did from ps2 -> ps3. However, they could launch the ps4 earlier if they kept absolutely everything the same except for more memory, faster blu-ray disc drive, same cell processor, but with faster and more spus, and an upgraded video card (but can't change that drastically, has to be exactly backward compatible)

make it so any in development games, would run the same on ps4 as on ps3.

that being said I still could not see that happening before Q4 2011.

I think doing this would be a really tough advertising campaign to get people to upgrade though, and I highly, highly doubt it will happen.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

1. Only a fraction of current generation of console games actually use HD audio in gameplay because of limitations in processing.

2. The vast majority of games are rendered in 720p 2D because higher resolution and/or 3D support inevidibly take up the limited processing of the console.

3. In terms of graphical detail there is a long way to advance. Even the best games of this console generation can't match even the worst looking CG movies. Low budget computer animated television series are able to destroy the best games in graphical detail, anti-lacing, and lighting.

There is alot of room to advance and advance is what they should. Killzone 3 should be a launch title for the Playstation 4 that way we can finally match that prerendered trailer from E3 2005.

1. That's not true for the only console with HD audio. It's not because of limitations in processing. It's the limitation in their (3rd party) implementation. The top three graphical games all have discrete 7.1 HD audio. That would fly in the face of your theory. AFAIK, all Sony 1st/2nd party games have HD audio.

2. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "720p 2D" games. I think you should clarify that.

3. In most aspects, yes; but not all aspects. I don't believe the low budget pre-rendered CG animated television shows match the textures, lighting, motion blur, DoF, character models, etc of God of War 3/Uncharted 1/Uncharted 2/Killzone 2. Not to mention the MLAA technique that can provide AA at up to 64x (higher than the top GPUs available today @ 16xAA). Maybe you should rephrase this point, too.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

3. In most aspects, yes; but not all aspects. I don't believe the low budget pre-rendered CG animated television shows match the textures, lighting, motion blur, DoF, character models, etc of God of War 3/Uncharted 1/Uncharted 2/Killzone 2. Not to mention the MLAA technique that can provide AA at up to 64x (higher than the top GPUs available today @ 16xAA). Maybe you should rephrase this point, too.

Ever watch Star Wars The Clone Wars. The 90 minute movie was reportedly made with a ten million dollar budget and features animation well below the standards of Pixar or Dreamworks movies. However its animation still passes every video game from this console generation in every way. On Blu-Ray it didn't feature a single jaggie while even the best looking Playstation 3 games have mild jaggies present. It also features weekly huge action sequences with constant fast motion yet always looks far more lifelike then any video game. And all this from a low budget cable television show. The only time the Playstation 3 surpases most run of the mill computer animation is in pre-rendered cutscenes.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by RiseDarthVader

2.He means that most games on this current generation of consoles are being rendered in 720P. Games like Uncharted 2 and God of War III won't ever be rendered in 1080P because the RSX has only 256MB VRAM to work with which is not enough to have high res textures in 1080P and also the RSX is based on the 7800GTX which is a very old GPU architecture by now.

What does being rendered at 720p have to do with "2D"? Most games this generation are 3D worlds. That's why it doesn't make sense.

You don't know what you're talking about concerning what RSX has access to. RSX has access to BOTH pools of 256MB (512MB total) of memory. RSX is actually closer to 7900GTX or 8600 GPU. Textures like in God of War 3 is only possible because of precedural generation and texture streaming from the HDD. BTW there are high-res textures in MLB 09 and 10: The Show which renders natively at 1920x1080p/60fps.

Also, PC doesn't currently have a game like GoW3 that natively renders at 1080p or beyond either.

3.
You don't need anymore then 16xAA on PC's because at 1920x1200 the resolution is high enough to not notice jaggies past 16xAA. You would only need 64xAA on a console because it is being rendered in 720P then most likely upscaled on 1080P HDTV's causing jaggies to be introduced.

BS. If PC doesn't need anymore the 16xAA at 1920x1200 (2.5x the resolution of a 720p image), consoles would only need 40xAA (16 times 2.5). Now, you can see how poorly your own theory holds up, when logic is applied. Also, MSAA blurs the textures where MLAA does NOT. MLAA doesn't look like you smeared Vasoline on your screen (like 16xAA MSAA). There are direct comparison pictures from the latest game (Metro 2033). Take a look.

Also, AFAIK, there are NO 16x9 consumer HDTVs that have 2.3million pixels for 1920x1200 (HDTVs are generally based on 16x9 ratio). This PC elitism is getting tiresome.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Ever watch Star Wars The Clone Wars. The 90 minute movie was reportedly made with a ten million dollar budget and features animation well below the standards of Pixar or Dreamworks movies. However its animation still passes every video game from this console generation in every way. On Blu-Ray it didn't feature a single jaggie while even the best looking Playstation 3 games have mild jaggies present. It also features weekly huge action sequences with constant fast motion yet always looks far more lifelike then any video game. And all this from a low budget cable television show. The only time the Playstation 3 surpases most run of the mill computer animation is in pre-rendered cutscenes.

It's funny how you only look at one aspect of the Clone Wars. What about the textures? What about the character models? What about the artistic design? ALL those things seem to rank below God of War 3, AND GoW3 is a REAL-TIME game I can interact with! It's not a pre-rendered CG video like Star Wars: Clone Wars. Clone Wars isn't even available in 7.1 LPCM audio...lol! Think about it.