Downsampling grain? - Blu-ray Forum

CJS234 · 04-01-2007, 10:43 PM

I noticed when I played my first Blu-ray movie that I could see noticeable amounts of grain in certain scenes. I get grain even on my 32" Sharp Aquos that goes up to 1080i and I was wondering if that was the way the movie was encoded or if its my tv. Do i need to have a 1080p HDTV so that the grain goes away. I think its the stupid downsampling. Am I right on this one? Help out...

Thanks,
Captain Jack Sparrow

P.S. I notice I wrote downscaling in the thread title, sorry it was a typo.

HDTV1080P · 04-01-2007, 10:46 PM

Some movies are going to have more natural film grain then others. This is normal, it varies depending on what film stock was used.

HDTV1080P · 04-01-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS234

I get grain even on my 32" Sharp Aquos that goes up to 1080i and I was wondering if that was the way the movie was encoded or if its my tv. Do i need to have a 1080p HDTV so that the grain goes away. I think its the stupid downscaling. Am I right on this one? Help out...

Read this review of the Rocky Balboa BLU-RAY disc which uses MPEG-4/AVC at high bit rates, its one of the best discs to test your system. The movie was shot on film and HD-video. The great thing about this release is it does a good job of preserving natural grain while at the same time during the fights it looks like broadcast HDTV. This is a good title to rent or purchase to see the difference between film grain and HD-video. The director purposely chooses some parts of the film to be more grainy then others.
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/dvd-review.php?sequence=1877

Deciazulado · 04-01-2007, 11:04 PM

First: grain is what makes the film image. 1080p transfers can be made very sharp and you can see every grain on the film image clearly (along with the sharper image detail of course)
Second: recheck your sharpness setting just in case. Turn it all the way down and then slowly turn it up looking at a great transfer from your sitting distance until the images gets in focus.
Third: read lots of threads and posts on grain (You can use the Search function)
Fourth: fixed pixel displays like Direct View LCDs are very sharp so you see everthing sharp and clear (see Second), more than any display that passes the image thru a lens.
Fifth: if your deinterlacer is taking the 1080i fields and making it two 540 x 1920 frames -> 1080 x 1920 frames, not only you have half the vertical resolution at any one moment, but every grain or noisy pixel on each 540 line is now twice as big (tall). So could theoretically give you the impression of more graininess or noise. (If it's deinterlacing correctly this is not happening.)
Sixth: watching 24fps material at 60p might make grain motion a little more apparent but very little.

Is this what you're seeing? Hard to tell w/o being there.

Read the 6-step program and come back to the grain clinic if you need more medicine

Chad Varnadore · 04-02-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS234

I noticed when I played my first Blu-ray movie that I could see noticeable amounts of grain in certain scenes. I get grain even on my 32" Sharp Aquos that goes up to 1080i and I was wondering if that was the way the movie was encoded or if its my tv. Do i need to have a 1080p HDTV so that the grain goes away. I think its the stupid downsampling. Am I right on this one? Help out...

Thanks,
Captain Jack Sparrow

P.S. I notice I wrote downscaling in the thread title, sorry it was a typo.

As stated by others already, grain varies from film to film and encoding to encoding. It's not at all uncommon to see grain from a film based source, or similar artifacts from some digital sources, if it hasn't been removed to make the video easier to compress at low bitrates or to satisfy a perspective that I think studios have adopted - some more than others - that consumers don't like seeing grain because of a lack of understanding of or a lack of appreciation for film. Of course anytime you filter video to remove grain, you're going to adversely affect detail in the process, as well as potentially alter the fidelity of the film in other areas. While some films are intentionally designed to elicit an aggravated grainy effect, there are many film-based movies where even if perfectly preserved, you may not notice grain unless you're looking for it or something is aggravating it in the video chain - like unnecessary, inferior, or low bandwidth video processing or even a loose cable. While the Rocky example above offers an interesting comparison of film to HD video, it shouldn't be interpretted that the level of film in Rocky is anything more than consistent with what the filmmakers likely intended for that particular movie. Something else could be less or more grainy depending on everything from budget to the intentions of the DP or director. The TV series, The Shield is a good example of how some movies are intended to look excessively noisy. It's shot on 16mm that gives it an especially hard-core, gritty feel.

What disc are you concerned about?

CJS234 · 04-02-2007, 01:05 PM

well thank you all I ave followed the 6-step program and still nothing. I went on a couple of other forums and websites and found that the PS3 does indeed down sample Blu-ray movies and this could be what is causing the grain to appear, but then that would mean that it should look perfect with no grain on a 1080p HDTV. Can anyone confirm or disprove this? Also, I am concerned about all my Blu-ray movies lol, but specifically Casino Royale is where I notice it the most. I know that the washroom scene at the beginning is supposed to look a bit grainy cuz its in black and white. Throughout the rest of the movie, however, I can still see it. Specifically on the mirror when Vesper is getting ready.

Thanks for all your help guys,
CJS

P.S. Guess I'll have to buy Rocky Balboa to see if its the PS3, my tv, or what? :-)

movies3 · 04-02-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS234

well thank you all I ave followed the 6-step program and still nothing. I went on a couple of other forums and websites and found that the PS3 does indeed down sample Blu-ray movies and this could be what is causing the grain to appear, but then that would mean that it should look perfect with no grain on a 1080p HDTV. Can anyone confirm or disprove this? Also, I am concerned about all my Blu-ray movies lol, but specifically Casino Royale is where I notice it the most. I know that the washroom scene at the beginning is supposed to look a bit grainy cuz its in black and white. Throughout the rest of the movie, however, I can still see it. Specifically on the mirror when Vesper is getting ready.

Thanks for all your help guys,
CJS

P.S. Guess I'll have to buy Rocky Balboa to see if its the PS3, my tv, or what? :-)

i just watched casino royale a couple days ago and i thought it looked amazing. do you have HDMI cable?
the only movies that i thought had grain to them were the older ones.

Deciazulado · 04-02-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS234

well thank you all I ave followed the 6-step program and still nothing. I went on a couple of other forums and websites and found that the PS3 does indeed down sample Blu-ray movies and this could be what is causing the grain to appear, but then that would mean that it should look perfect with no grain on a 1080p HDTV. Can anyone confirm or disprove this? Also, I am concerned about all my Blu-ray movies lol, but specifically Casino Royale is where I notice it the most. I know that the washroom scene at the beginning is supposed to look a bit grainy cuz its in black and white. Throughout the rest of the movie, however, I can still see it. Specifically on the mirror when Vesper is getting ready.

Thanks for all your help guys,
CJS

P.S. Guess I'll have to buy Rocky Balboa to see if its the PS3, my tv, or what? :-)

When you say the PS3 downsamples the movie, what do you mean? if your display accepts 1080i your PS3 should be set to 1080i, and that's not downsampling films, that's interlacing the 1080 x 1920 24 film frames per second into 1080 x 1920 60 fields per second, (or just passing straight the 1080 x 1920 60 fields for things shot on 1080i like live concerts) so your 60i TV can display them. The resolution stays the same in the output. Now, if YOUR display is less than 1080 x 1920, or its deinterlacer bobs 1080i to 540 for easy deinterlacing to 1080p, then it's the display that "downsamples".

Casino Royale has very fine grain thoughout most of the movie and looks like chrome slide film

Unless you think film should have NO grain like a Computer Generated Image..

Well that's not film...

Chad Varnadore · 04-02-2007, 05:13 PM

Aside from the opening, like Deci says, CR has very fine grain. I wouldn't expect it to be too pronounced on a 32" display unless being aggravated by something, in fact I wouldn't even expect it to be visible at all, except in key places.

I'm not sure what bitrate the PS3 samples at. But, know from experience that 8bit video processing, which is probably still the most common, will enhance video noise, almost dramatically as well. RGB or DVI signals are often limited to 8 bit processing. Of course if you're using a component connection, the analog conversion will amp noise too.

CJS234 · 04-02-2007, 11:21 PM

Ok by downsampling I mean that since my TV is only 1366 x 768 (yet can still take 1080i), the PS3 does this downsampling to make the 1080p picture fit into the 1366 x 768 limitations and thus makes the grain more visible. Thats what I think. There are rumors (hope its true) that Sony is going to fix the downsampling problem for 1080i tv's on a future PS3 update along with adding 1080p upscaling for regular dvd's. Keep your fingers crossed

Thanks for all your help again,
CJS234

Deciazulado · 04-03-2007, 12:06 AM

As I said a couple of posts above, it's not the PS3 that's doing the downsampling. It's your 768 x 1366 display,

If the resizing is done the proper way, a 768 image would have lessgrain, as the grain pixels merged and blended into each other when the image is "shrunk".

Justt take a 1200 x 1600 grainy picture and resize it properly to 600 x 800 or whatever, if you do it the best way the grain becomes half. Of course you can do it in less than optimal ways too.

Chad Varnadore · 04-03-2007, 12:06 AM

I believe the problem with the PS3 is its lack of scaling to other resolutions. It should be sending BD at 1080i, scaling to 768p would be done by the display, so any noise or artifacts added in the process would be at the displays end. Most consumer displays can not properly deinterlace 1080i. So, as Deci said, what you're seeing is likely the result of bobbing to 540p and then scaling to 768p. If so, there's a lot you're missing and potentially a good deal of noise being aggravated in the process if not generated. Even good quality scaling will often generate some ringing, which looks like edge enhancement to most.

Should the PS3 implement scaling in the future, there's a good chance it won't support a resolution as esoteric as 768, opting only for the more common 720p instead. If so, should you elect to output at 720p at that time, you'll be adding duplicate processing, which also is a very lossy and potentially noise generating process. By duplicate processing, I mean the interlaced 1080i video, which is how the PS3 extracts the 1080p video on the disc, as it doesn't support full 1080p/24 - at least not at this time - will then be deinterlaced and scaled to 720p, where it'll be routed to the display to be scaled again to the panels native 768p rate.

If so, your only option to preserve more of the detail inherent to the disc and reduce some of the noise you're seeing would be to either get a new display or buy a video processor like those from DVDO or Lumagen that will perform proper inverse telecine for high definition and scale to a greater variety of resolutions like 768p. Upgrading the display would probably be the more cost effective, as the cheapest Lumagen that'll do what you need is around 2k and the cheapest DVDO is 3k. I'm not aware of anything else out that'll handle HD optimally that's any cheaper. However, there's always the chance the the PS3 could support 768p too. There's also the chance of finding an AVR later this year that supports video processing in addition to audio that'll take care of your needs as well. Denon's one manufacturer to keep an eye on for something like that - assuming you think you'll be in the market for a new AVR to take advantage of the PS3s HDMI 1.3 capability.

Sorry for throwing so much at you. I imagine it's a bit to take in. Maybe if they ever get all the kinks worked out of HDMI, one day things will be simple again.

Deciazulado · 04-03-2007, 12:27 AM

I think the PS3 when it gets scaling abilities it might be able to do 720p in the following signal path:

1080 x 1920 24p content -> add 3:2 repeats -> 1080 x 1920 60p -> downscale to 720 x 1280 60p

1080 x 1920 60i content -> deinterlace -> 1080 x 1920 60p -> downscale to 720 x 1280 60p

The paths in blue would be the new abilities. Right now it has be doing the "1080 x 1920 24p -> add 3:2 repeats -> 1080 x 1920 60p" part because it outputs 1080 x 1920 60p while 60i material remains 60i interlaced.

Also then it would do

720 x 1280 60p content -> upscale to 1080 x 1920 60p

same for 480 i,p content, etc etc

We'll see...

In the current situation the player sends a 1080 x 1920 60Hz interlaced output from both film and 60i content for displays that only accept 1080i, and the display has to deal (deinterlace/scale) with that.

As Chad mentioned going 1080 -> 720 -> 768, or 1080 -> 540 -> 720, or 1080 -> 540 -> 768, etc has several steps where noise/degradation could happen.
Maybe with the scaling other resolutions might be added. And Zoom for those that don't like black bars...

CJS234 · 04-03-2007, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Maybe with the scaling other resolutions might be added. And Zoom for those that don't like black bars...

Ya I hope so but then again the black bars are due to the aspect ratio and if you zoom it'll mess the video up and faces will look elongated and crap and thats not cool.

Deciazulado · 04-03-2007, 02:22 AM

No I meant a proportional 1.25x or 1.33x zoom that would make Academy 1.37 and Scope 2.39 films mostly fill the screen (without distortion) for the people that complain about black bars. I didn't mean it was proper

(hence the exclamation warning)

but it might make some people happy. And other zoom ratios (2x etc) would be nice to examine image details.

JLaSoul · 04-28-2007, 09:54 PM

I have a 40in samsung tv and am thinking of uprading to a 46 or 52, will getting a bigger tv make some of those real grainy parts in a movie seem less than on a smaller one, i know grain is a part of the movie but I was just wondering. Thanks for anyones info.

Greenmatiz2 · 04-29-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Read this review of the Rocky Balboa BLU-RAY disc which uses MPEG-4/AVC at high bit rates, its one of the best discs to test your system. The movie was shot on film and HD-video. The great thing about this release is it does a good job of preserving natural grain while at the same time during the fights it looks like broadcast HDTV. This is a good title to rent or purchase to see the difference between film grain and HD-video. The director purposely chooses some parts of the film to be more grainy then others.
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/dvd-review.php?sequence=1877

Agreed, BUT...

This has now become an issue with home theaters, because BR and HD-DVD are able to show the heavy grain in a small home-TV-sized image.

The director shot these movies, and the grain is there by design -- yes -- but HE/SHE DESIGNED IT FOR A LARGE THEATER SCREEN. That was the director's intended playback medium when he chose the film stock.

Directors/studios are going to have to make some adjustments when transferring to BR or HD-DVD. The resolution of these new formats must be taken into account. The image needs to be cleaned up more. Theater-style grain looks annoying/distracting on a home-sized TV. We don't all have 100" projectors in our living rooms!

Most consumers (the ones who will decide this format war, and own smaller TVs) don't like an overly-grainy image. It looks acceptable/artistic on a 100" screen, but at 42" or below, it looks like the screen is dirty. Most consumers aren't videophiles, and they don't have large projection home theaters. They won't appreciate grain because their systems aren't big enough to reproduce the environment that grain was intended for.

JLaSoul · 04-29-2007, 03:30 PM

Very true, I kinda thought that but didn't know so i didn't want to say it not knowing. I guess the reason I asked that is because if you watch a standard dvd on a standard tv, I had never noticed grain like that, I would think that it is would be more noticeable there than on blu-ray since it is less in focus thus making the grain more bigger looking, but maybe it is just cause' the blu-ray is so much sharper to pop out those little dots of grain and not blurry and bundled up pixels.One more question, is it just me or is it that when watching a standard dvd on a standard tv look clear and pretty sharp not all detailed but looks great and when you watch it on an lcd it doesn't look the same looks worst, you would think that being on there it would surpass the standard or look the same. Then when you buy it on blu-ray, then it looks like it would on a standard tv but with more detail, but it gives the look of a standard even sometimes with a little 3-d look on the lcd.

04-01-2007, 10:43 PM	#1
CJS234 Hot Deals moderator Top contributor Member since:Mar 2007 Location:Duluth, MN Home Theater Gallery:51 4K collection:14 Blu-ray collection:1108 Digital collection:2 Blu-ray reviews:6 Trading Score:26	Downsampling grain? I noticed when I played my first Blu-ray movie that I could see noticeable amounts of grain in certain scenes. I get grain even on my 32" Sharp Aquos that goes up to 1080i and I was wondering if that was the way the movie was encoded or if its my tv. Do i need to have a 1080p HDTV so that the grain goes away. I think its the stupid downsampling. Am I right on this one? Help out... Thanks, Captain Jack Sparrow P.S. I notice I wrote downscaling in the thread title, sorry it was a typo.

04-03-2007, 12:06 AM	#12
Chad Varnadore Senior Member Member since:Aug 2006 Location:Salisbury, NC Home Theater Gallery:5 Blu-ray collection:349 Blu-ray reviews:19	I believe the problem with the PS3 is its lack of scaling to other resolutions. It should be sending BD at 1080i, scaling to 768p would be done by the display, so any noise or artifacts added in the process would be at the displays end. Most consumer displays can not properly deinterlace 1080i. So, as Deci said, what you're seeing is likely the result of bobbing to 540p and then scaling to 768p. If so, there's a lot you're missing and potentially a good deal of noise being aggravated in the process if not generated. Even good quality scaling will often generate some ringing, which looks like edge enhancement to most. Should the PS3 implement scaling in the future, there's a good chance it won't support a resolution as esoteric as 768, opting only for the more common 720p instead. If so, should you elect to output at 720p at that time, you'll be adding duplicate processing, which also is a very lossy and potentially noise generating process. By duplicate processing, I mean the interlaced 1080i video, which is how the PS3 extracts the 1080p video on the disc, as it doesn't support full 1080p/24 - at least not at this time - will then be deinterlaced and scaled to 720p, where it'll be routed to the display to be scaled again to the panels native 768p rate. If so, your only option to preserve more of the detail inherent to the disc and reduce some of the noise you're seeing would be to either get a new display or buy a video processor like those from DVDO or Lumagen that will perform proper inverse telecine for high definition and scale to a greater variety of resolutions like 768p. Upgrading the display would probably be the more cost effective, as the cheapest Lumagen that'll do what you need is around 2k and the cheapest DVDO is 3k. I'm not aware of anything else out that'll handle HD optimally that's any cheaper. However, there's always the chance the the PS3 could support 768p too. There's also the chance of finding an AVR later this year that supports video processing in addition to audio that'll take care of your needs as well. Denon's one manufacturer to keep an eye on for something like that - assuming you think you'll be in the market for a new AVR to take advantage of the PS3s HDMI 1.3 capability. Sorry for throwing so much at you. I imagine it's a bit to take in. Maybe if they ever get all the kinks worked out of HDMI, one day things will be simple again. Last edited by Chad Varnadore; 04-03-2007 at 12:12 AM.

04-03-2007, 12:27 AM	#13
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1159 Blu-ray collection:7041 DVD collection:4040	I think the PS3 when it gets scaling abilities it might be able to do 720p in the following signal path: 1080 x 1920 24p content -> add 3:2 repeats -> 1080 x 1920 60p -> downscale to 720 x 1280 60p 1080 x 1920 60i content -> deinterlace -> 1080 x 1920 60p -> downscale to 720 x 1280 60p The paths in blue would be the new abilities. Right now it has be doing the "1080 x 1920 24p -> add 3:2 repeats -> 1080 x 1920 60p" part because it outputs 1080 x 1920 60p while 60i material remains 60i interlaced. Also then it would do 720 x 1280 60p content -> upscale to 1080 x 1920 60p same for 480 i,p content, etc etc We'll see... In the current situation the player sends a 1080 x 1920 60Hz interlaced output from both film and 60i content for displays that only accept 1080i, and the display has to deal (deinterlace/scale) with that. As Chad mentioned going 1080 -> 720 -> 768, or 1080 -> 540 -> 720, or 1080 -> 540 -> 768, etc has several steps where noise/degradation could happen. Maybe with the scaling other resolutions might be added. And Zoom for those that don't like black bars... Last edited by Deciazulado; 04-03-2007 at 01:02 AM.

04-28-2007, 09:54 PM	#16
JLaSoul Active Member Member since:Mar 2007 Blu-ray collection:219	Does bigger tvs make some of the grain go away? I have a 40in samsung tv and am thinking of uprading to a 46 or 52, will getting a bigger tv make some of those real grainy parts in a movie seem less than on a smaller one, i know grain is a part of the movie but I was just wondering. Thanks for anyones info.

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04-01-2007, 10:46 PM	#2
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	Some movies are going to have more natural film grain then others. This is normal, it varies depending on what film stock was used.

04-01-2007, 11:04 PM	#4
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1159 Blu-ray collection:7041 DVD collection:4040	First: grain is what makes the film image. 1080p transfers can be made very sharp and you can see every grain on the film image clearly (along with the sharper image detail of course) Second: recheck your sharpness setting just in case. Turn it all the way down and then slowly turn it up looking at a great transfer from your sitting distance until the images gets in focus. Third: read lots of threads and posts on grain (You can use the Search function) Fourth: fixed pixel displays like Direct View LCDs are very sharp so you see everthing sharp and clear (see Second), more than any display that passes the image thru a lens. Fifth: if your deinterlacer is taking the 1080i fields and making it two 540 x 1920 frames -> 1080 x 1920 frames, not only you have half the vertical resolution at any one moment, but every grain or noisy pixel on each 540 line is now twice as big (tall). So could theoretically give you the impression of more graininess or noise. (If it's deinterlacing correctly this is not happening.) Sixth: watching 24fps material at 60p might make grain motion a little more apparent but very little. Is this what you're seeing? Hard to tell w/o being there. Read the 6-step program and come back to the grain clinic if you need more medicine

04-02-2007, 01:05 PM	#6
CJS234 Hot Deals moderator Top contributor Member since:Mar 2007 Location:Duluth, MN Home Theater Gallery:51 4K collection:14 Blu-ray collection:1108 Digital collection:2 Blu-ray reviews:6 Trading Score:26	well thank you all I ave followed the 6-step program and still nothing. I went on a couple of other forums and websites and found that the PS3 does indeed down sample Blu-ray movies and this could be what is causing the grain to appear, but then that would mean that it should look perfect with no grain on a 1080p HDTV. Can anyone confirm or disprove this? Also, I am concerned about all my Blu-ray movies lol, but specifically Casino Royale is where I notice it the most. I know that the washroom scene at the beginning is supposed to look a bit grainy cuz its in black and white. Throughout the rest of the movie, however, I can still see it. Specifically on the mirror when Vesper is getting ready. Thanks for all your help guys, CJS P.S. Guess I'll have to buy Rocky Balboa to see if its the PS3, my tv, or what? :-)

04-02-2007, 05:13 PM	#9
Chad Varnadore Senior Member Member since:Aug 2006 Location:Salisbury, NC Home Theater Gallery:5 Blu-ray collection:349 Blu-ray reviews:19	Aside from the opening, like Deci says, CR has very fine grain. I wouldn't expect it to be too pronounced on a 32" display unless being aggravated by something, in fact I wouldn't even expect it to be visible at all, except in key places. I'm not sure what bitrate the PS3 samples at. But, know from experience that 8bit video processing, which is probably still the most common, will enhance video noise, almost dramatically as well. RGB or DVI signals are often limited to 8 bit processing. Of course if you're using a component connection, the analog conversion will amp noise too.

04-02-2007, 11:21 PM	#10
CJS234 Hot Deals moderator Top contributor Member since:Mar 2007 Location:Duluth, MN Home Theater Gallery:51 4K collection:14 Blu-ray collection:1108 Digital collection:2 Blu-ray reviews:6 Trading Score:26	Ok by downsampling I mean that since my TV is only 1366 x 768 (yet can still take 1080i), the PS3 does this downsampling to make the 1080p picture fit into the 1366 x 768 limitations and thus makes the grain more visible. Thats what I think. There are rumors (hope its true) that Sony is going to fix the downsampling problem for 1080i tv's on a future PS3 update along with adding 1080p upscaling for regular dvd's. Keep your fingers crossed Thanks for all your help again, CJS234

04-03-2007, 02:22 AM	#15
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1159 Blu-ray collection:7041 DVD collection:4040	No I meant a proportional 1.25x or 1.33x zoom that would make Academy 1.37 and Scope 2.39 films mostly fill the screen (without distortion) for the people that complain about black bars. I didn't mean it was proper (hence the exclamation warning) but it might make some people happy. And other zoom ratios (2x etc) would be nice to examine image details.

04-29-2007, 03:30 PM	#18
JLaSoul Active Member Member since:Mar 2007 Blu-ray collection:219	Very true, I kinda thought that but didn't know so i didn't want to say it not knowing. I guess the reason I asked that is because if you watch a standard dvd on a standard tv, I had never noticed grain like that, I would think that it is would be more noticeable there than on blu-ray since it is less in focus thus making the grain more bigger looking, but maybe it is just cause' the blu-ray is so much sharper to pop out those little dots of grain and not blurry and bundled up pixels.One more question, is it just me or is it that when watching a standard dvd on a standard tv look clear and pretty sharp not all detailed but looks great and when you watch it on an lcd it doesn't look the same looks worst, you would think that being on there it would surpass the standard or look the same. Then when you buy it on blu-ray, then it looks like it would on a standard tv but with more detail, but it gives the look of a standard even sometimes with a little 3-d look on the lcd.

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