Why is there grain? - Blu-ray Forum

Meeklo · 12-14-2008, 08:30 AM

Best question I have yet to see on this forum...why do some movies have grain.

I was led to believe that movies made within the past 2 years would be shot using cameras that would provide a perfect HD picture yet I haven't seen a movie (except for The Dark Knight, check my collection as to which movies I've seen on bluray) that didn't have some grain to it.

With modern technology, you'd think they'd be able to greatly reduce, if even eliminate, grain.

Mods...if you feel the need to move this thread, please let it sit here for a few days as this is the most popular topic forum and I would like the most responses as possible.

Blaumann · 12-14-2008, 09:36 AM

You actually haven't seen this question being asked before? Wow, there are thousands of posts about this topic.....

Grain is a natural part of film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_st...and_properties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain

To this day, almost all movies are still shot on film, and not using HD Cameras as i think you're implying. Blu-ray is coming so close to the original film, that it is able to reproduce the film grain. Which is a good thing btw.

chriharr · 12-14-2008, 09:57 AM

Grain has been in motion pictures for over a 120 years. people have accepted it as the standard for how motion pictures look as well. the majority love or even embrace it.

even Digital cameras have grain (it's called image noise) Digital or Analog the film will still feature grain no matter what. deal with it!

the last thing people want to see is a film that has been through all kinds of softening filters to reduce the appearance of grain, people want to see it as close to the source as possible.

Jayromy · 12-14-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaumann

You actually haven't seen this question being asked before? Wow, there are thousands of posts about this topic.....

Grain is a natural part of film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_st...and_properties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain

To this day, almost all movies are still shot on film, and not using HD Cameras as i think you're implying. Blu-ray is coming so close to the original film, that it is able to reproduce the film grain. Which is a good thing btw.

This is true. Moreover, including prominent grain is often times an aesthetic choice by the filmmaker. Most images can be digitally scrubbed in post-production to reduce or eliminate grain, but that doesn't always coincide with the director's vision. Grain is indeed a good thing, particularly in catalogue titles, and through the clarity of Blu-ray, adds luster to the films and yields an image that is much closer to the original. IMO, removing or scrubbing the grain from a film like The Godfather would make it look cheap and lessen it's impact. It's really up to the filmmaker...but don't discount grain.

Petra_Kalbrain · 12-14-2008, 10:51 AM

Wow... yes, this question has been asked over and over and over and over and over again on this forum. And, although I acknowledge the presence of film grain and can appreciate its function, I desperately look forward to the day when filmmakers start using digital cameras with hard drives instead of film as their capture method. I want the image to be as life-like as possible to the extent that my television screen LITERALLY seems like a single pane of glass between my living room and the world in which the film is taking place.

I WANT THAT SOOOOO BAD!!!

RiseDarthVader · 12-14-2008, 11:55 AM

You will still get Digital noise which is similar to grain.

phantompwr · 12-14-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiseDarthVader

You will still get Digital noise which is similar to grain.

True, and Digital Noise is much worse than film grain (IMHO)

Roggster · 12-14-2008, 12:17 PM

I believe that certain films shot entirely on HD digital cameras have had grain added to mimic certain film stocks - that's right - added by the director.
Otherwise it doesn't look right.

The trick is to appreciate that film grain is is what film is all about.

As for post processing to get rid of natural grain, there is no way to get rid of grain without removing some of the picture. The result is a nasty artificial looking mess.

Love film - love grain.

RiseDarthVader · 12-14-2008, 12:41 PM

Digital Grain is alot worse especially in night/dark scenes. You can't see anything!

GGX · 12-14-2008, 01:03 PM

Film grain is not something that needs to be eliminated. The practice some studios have of using DNR and EE does.

hendra · 12-14-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeklo

I haven't seen a movie (except for The Dark Knight, check my collection as to which movies I've seen on bluray) that didn't have some grain to it.

PIXAR movies have no grain. It's picture perfect

Bruce Morrison · 12-14-2008, 01:53 PM

I don't mind "normal" amounts of film grain, but I recently bought the DVD of 'Becket' (a 1964 film) and that has what I would consider to be excessive grain in some parts, particularly the interior scenes. In fact, it's so heavy at times that it causes some rapid pulsing-type fluctuation in the colour intensity and/or brightness. It's difficult to identify exactly which attribute is affected, but the resulting instability in the image quality is quite distracting.

I'm wondering whether the Blu-ray edition would be any better in this respect. Has anyone got the BD and could comment?

Sussudio · 12-14-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeklo

Best question I have yet to see on this forum...why do some movies have grain.

ryoohki · 12-14-2008, 02:20 PM

The higher the resolution, the more precise the image is, the bigger you're display is, the closer you sit, the more you'll see it because it's high def enought for you're eye to see it.

You never did go to a theater??

DNR always have a drawback. It remove fine detail and 1080p is all about that. Remove fine detail and you have a very fine DVD upconvert.

and digital solve anything. it have noise. TDK have plenty of grain during the 35mm sequences. The Imax sequence have it also but the grain on 70mm is so small that even 1080p can't reproduce it

Esox50 · 12-14-2008, 02:29 PM

Without grain, there would be no cereal, bread, or grain based spirits and beer. I cannot live without grain...

Graboid · 12-14-2008, 03:52 PM

Grain are the building blocks of any photo image and while it isn't called the same thing, even digital photography exhibits a type of grain, called digital noise. Think of grain as the brush strokes in a fine painting, you wouldn't want those removed would you? As film stocks have improved over the years the grain has been significantly reduced. Another factor is the film speed or ASA. Higher film speeds are necessary in low light, and the higher the ASA the larger the grain. Some directors in recent years have used film stocks with large grain structure intentionally to give the picture a documentary feel. An example of that is Cameron's Aliens, which has grain that looks almost like snowflakes at times. I really don't have very high hopes for that title when it hits blu-ray, and if they scrub the grain they defeat the point of upgrading to blu in the first place. Unfortunately studios like New Line and sometimes Warners are scrubbing the grain out of very recent titles leaving the image a bit soft and making some of the skintones look waxy and unnatural.

SquidPuppet · 12-14-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeklo

Best question I have yet to see on this forum...why do some movies have grain.

I was led to believe that movies made within the past 2 years would be shot using cameras that would provide a perfect HD picture yet I haven't seen a movie (except for The Dark Knight, check my collection as to which movies I've seen on bluray) that didn't have some grain to it.

With modern technology, you'd think they'd be able to greatly reduce, if even eliminate, grain.Mods...if you feel the need to move this thread, please let it sit here for a few days as this is the most popular topic forum and I would like the most responses as possible.

They can, and have. There are plenty of movies that have been ruined this way.

I wont name them all, but if you like movies with air-brushed manequins instead of actors, then that is what excessive grain removal yields.

Windows V · 12-14-2008, 04:36 PM

I agree that if grain is present in a movie, it should NOT be removed, as that's how the movie was made.

That would be something like taking a great black and white movie and colourising it

BUT

The thing is, just because grain has been in movies since forever, doesn't mean all movies should be shot with grain. Surely the cameras of today can shoot films without any grain? If so, why not? Saying that all movies should have grain even if we have the technology to shoot film without having grain would be like saying all movies should be black and white...

Midnightsailor · 12-14-2008, 04:40 PM

Grain = Good

GGX · 12-14-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windows V

The thing is, just because grain has been in movies since forever, doesn't mean all movies should be shot with grain. Surely the cameras of today can shoot films without any grain? If so, why not? Saying that all movies should have grain even if we have the technology to shoot film without having grain would be like saying all movies should be black and white...

Nah. Just doesn't look film-like. Makes it seem like you are watching some TV show.

12-14-2008, 08:30 AM	#1
Meeklo Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Oct 2008 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:687 DVD collection:3 Blu-ray reviews:28 Trading Score:25	Why is there grain? Best question I have yet to see on this forum...why do some movies have grain. I was led to believe that movies made within the past 2 years would be shot using cameras that would provide a perfect HD picture yet I haven't seen a movie (except for The Dark Knight, check my collection as to which movies I've seen on bluray) that didn't have some grain to it. With modern technology, you'd think they'd be able to greatly reduce, if even eliminate, grain. Mods...if you feel the need to move this thread, please let it sit here for a few days as this is the most popular topic forum and I would like the most responses as possible.

Similar Threads
thread	Forum	Thread Starter	Replies	Last Post
What is Grain	Newbie Discussion	TL OWNS U	9	08-27-2024 05:54 PM
Would you like grain with that?	Movie Polls	Lee Christie	46	08-09-2021 09:41 AM
I can't see Grain	LCD TVs	csyoung	25	08-13-2009 12:58 PM
Grain... How to deal with Grain...	Display Theory and Discussion	AveneL	232	01-21-2009 05:44 AM

12-14-2008, 09:36 AM	#2
Blaumann Special Member Member since:Sep 2007 Location:verge of breakdown	You actually haven't seen this question being asked before? Wow, there are thousands of posts about this topic..... Grain is a natural part of film. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_st...and_properties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain To this day, almost all movies are still shot on film, and not using HD Cameras as i think you're implying. Blu-ray is coming so close to the original film, that it is able to reproduce the film grain. Which is a good thing btw.

12-14-2008, 09:57 AM	#3
chriharr Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Adelaide, SA . Australia Home Theater Gallery:4 Blu-ray collection:17 Blu-ray reviews:6	Grain has been in motion pictures for over a 120 years. people have accepted it as the standard for how motion pictures look as well. the majority love or even embrace it. even Digital cameras have grain (it's called image noise) Digital or Analog the film will still feature grain no matter what. deal with it! the last thing people want to see is a film that has been through all kinds of softening filters to reduce the appearance of grain, people want to see it as close to the source as possible.

12-14-2008, 10:51 AM	#5
Petra_Kalbrain Blu-ray Archduke Top contributor Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Vancouver, BC 4K collection:5 Blu-ray collection:561 Blu-ray reviews:3 Trading Score:20	Wow... yes, this question has been asked over and over and over and over and over again on this forum. And, although I acknowledge the presence of film grain and can appreciate its function, I desperately look forward to the day when filmmakers start using digital cameras with hard drives instead of film as their capture method. I want the image to be as life-like as possible to the extent that my television screen LITERALLY seems like a single pane of glass between my living room and the world in which the film is taking place. I WANT THAT SOOOOO BAD!!!

12-14-2008, 11:55 AM	#6
RiseDarthVader Power Member Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Australia Blu-ray collection:136	You will still get Digital noise which is similar to grain.

12-14-2008, 12:17 PM	#8
Roggster Member Member since:Aug 2008 Location:Warrington, UK Blu-ray collection:1	I believe that certain films shot entirely on HD digital cameras have had grain added to mimic certain film stocks - that's right - added by the director. Otherwise it doesn't look right. The trick is to appreciate that film grain is is what film is all about. As for post processing to get rid of natural grain, there is no way to get rid of grain without removing some of the picture. The result is a nasty artificial looking mess. Love film - love grain.

12-14-2008, 12:41 PM	#9
RiseDarthVader Power Member Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Australia Blu-ray collection:136	Digital Grain is alot worse especially in night/dark scenes. You can't see anything!

12-14-2008, 01:03 PM	#10
GGX Banned Member since:Oct 2006 Location:Kentwood, Michigan Blu-ray collection:262 Trading Score:2	Film grain is not something that needs to be eliminated. The practice some studios have of using DNR and EE does.

12-14-2008, 01:53 PM	#12
Bruce Morrison Power Member Member since:Feb 2007 Location:United Kingdom 4K collection:339 Blu-ray collection:2243 DVD collection:581	I don't mind "normal" amounts of film grain, but I recently bought the DVD of 'Becket' (a 1964 film) and that has what I would consider to be excessive grain in some parts, particularly the interior scenes. In fact, it's so heavy at times that it causes some rapid pulsing-type fluctuation in the colour intensity and/or brightness. It's difficult to identify exactly which attribute is affected, but the resulting instability in the image quality is quite distracting. I'm wondering whether the Blu-ray edition would be any better in this respect. Has anyone got the BD and could comment?

12-14-2008, 02:20 PM	#14
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	The higher the resolution, the more precise the image is, the bigger you're display is, the closer you sit, the more you'll see it because it's high def enought for you're eye to see it. You never did go to a theater?? DNR always have a drawback. It remove fine detail and 1080p is all about that. Remove fine detail and you have a very fine DVD upconvert. and digital solve anything. it have noise. TDK have plenty of grain during the 35mm sequences. The Imax sequence have it also but the grain on 70mm is so small that even 1080p can't reproduce it

12-14-2008, 02:29 PM	#15
Esox50 Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jan 2007 4K collection:416 Blu-ray collection:488	Without grain, there would be no cereal, bread, or grain based spirits and beer. I cannot live without grain...

12-14-2008, 03:52 PM	#16
Graboid Active Member Member since:Mar 2008 Location:Illinois 4K collection:735 Blu-ray collection:2078 DVD collection:83 Prime collection:3 Blu-ray reviews:1	Grain are the building blocks of any photo image and while it isn't called the same thing, even digital photography exhibits a type of grain, called digital noise. Think of grain as the brush strokes in a fine painting, you wouldn't want those removed would you? As film stocks have improved over the years the grain has been significantly reduced. Another factor is the film speed or ASA. Higher film speeds are necessary in low light, and the higher the ASA the larger the grain. Some directors in recent years have used film stocks with large grain structure intentionally to give the picture a documentary feel. An example of that is Cameron's Aliens, which has grain that looks almost like snowflakes at times. I really don't have very high hopes for that title when it hits blu-ray, and if they scrub the grain they defeat the point of upgrading to blu in the first place. Unfortunately studios like New Line and sometimes Warners are scrubbing the grain out of very recent titles leaving the image a bit soft and making some of the skintones look waxy and unnatural.

12-14-2008, 04:36 PM	#18
Windows V Active Member Member since:Oct 2008 Blu-ray collection:60	I agree that if grain is present in a movie, it should NOT be removed, as that's how the movie was made. That would be something like taking a great black and white movie and colourising it BUT The thing is, just because grain has been in movies since forever, doesn't mean all movies should be shot with grain. Surely the cameras of today can shoot films without any grain? If so, why not? Saying that all movies should have grain even if we have the technology to shoot film without having grain would be like saying all movies should be black and white...

12-14-2008, 04:40 PM	#19
Midnightsailor Special Member Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Los Angeles, CA Blu-ray collection:32 Blu-ray reviews:1	Grain = Good

Best Blu-ray Movie Deals