Balanced Pre-outs?

[Josh]

Here's the deal:

My wonderful girlfriend surprised me for my birthday (not for a few weeks - we are impatient people) with a Denon 2308CI. As I already have a Denon 887, this receiver does little for me (or any Blu-ray owner, for that matter) because it doesn't do Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio. So we're going to return it tomorrow.

Initially, I was going to get the Denon 2808 so get the decoding, but now that I have read up on it, everyone says to go for the 3808 because of the better menus and network updating.

Eventually, I'm going to do a pre/pro and amp set-up. This doesn't cause much of an issue with getting the 3808, because I can very easily use that as a pre/pro and hook it up to a 7 channel Outlaw for some serious cranking power. But then I see these "Balanced XLR" pre-outs plugs that some pre/pros are using - and being that I am all about having the best of the best - now I'm thinking I want an amp with balanced pre-outs.

Are balanced pre-outs really that much superior to standard pre-outs? Should I hold off on the Denon 3808 purchase until someone makes a pre/pro with balanced pre-outs?

[kpkelley]

Here is an article form Audioholics, though i haven't read it yet:

Balanced vs. Unbalanced Cables

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Josh

Here's the deal:
Are balanced pre-outs really that much superior to standard pre-outs? Should I hold off on the Denon 3808 purchase until someone makes a pre/pro with balanced pre-outs?

The greatest advantage to using balanced connections is their greater noise immunity compared to single ended connections. That is, balanced connections have a better CMR (Common Mode Rejection ratio).

Very simply, a balanced connection works by splitting the signal into a pair of mirrored signals, which are recombined at some later stage. Signal traveling through a wire is susceptible to RFI (radio frequency interference). A balanced connection will still pick up RFI, but because the RFI affects both phases the same way, it tends to cancel out when the two signals are recombined.

So, balanced connections are a great advantage in (electrically) noisy environments. Balanced signals tend to be driven at higher levels that single ended ones, so they're also of benefit when long cable lengths are required.

Hope this helps!

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Josh

...Should I hold off on the Denon 3808 purchase until someone makes a pre/pro with balanced pre-outs?

+1 to richteer's reply and the Integra DTC 9.8 apparently has XLR outs right now. Also, there's a new thread on the upcoming Marantz pre/pro which has XLR outs.

The new Denon pre/pro is another candidate if you've got $7K to blow.

[Josh]

Since I posted that question, I have been doing some research, and I think I'm falling in love with the Marantz. I would go for the Onkyo Pro/Integra, but they have the DTS-MA problem that is being fixed via workaround - not optimal in my eyes. The Denon is too much for my blood, especially when you consider you can have the Marantz pre/pro and amp for $5K.

This is all very humorous to me, as I live in a condo where I definitely don't need the power, but I'm thinking about the future house with home theater. Why invest money in something today if you know you'll need something else tomorrow?

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Josh

...you can have the Marantz pre/pro and amp for $5K....

The Marantz pre/pro does look nice, but assuming you go that route and unless you simply must have matching components, do yourself a favor and research amps other than the Marantz. There are a number of very fine amps at that price point.

[Woody]

If you already have an amp, and you know you are gonna go pre-amp eventually (soon it sounds like). I would save the money on the 3808 myself.

Does your Outlaw amp have balanced ins?

And where can I find info on the upcoming Marantz pre?

[Josh]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I own a separate amp right.

I have a Denon 887 and that's it. It does what it needs to do, and I'm happy. I know that eventually (hopefully sooner than later) I will be constructing my own home theater, and I don't want to spend money on something now that is not going to do me any good later.

Decisions, decisions. I'm still reading up on the Marantz pre/pro, and I'm loving every second.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Josh

Decisions, decisions. I'm still reading up on the Marantz pre/pro, and I'm loving every second.

Check out the Emotiva stuff. Although I've no personal experience with their stuff, it seems to be pretty good (value). The Outlaw Audio stuff is well recommended too, but I think their current pre is lacking. It's as ugly as sin and doesn't have HDMI 1.3a. :-(

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Josh

This is all very humorous to me, as I live in a condo where I definitely don't need the power, but I'm thinking about the future house with home theater. Why invest money in something today if you know you'll need something else tomorrow?

Very wise. Power isn't the only (or major) reason to go separates. Increased flexibility and (usually) better sound quality are the main reasons.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by Josh

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I own a separate amp right.

I have a Denon 887 and that's it. It does what it needs to do, and I'm happy. I know that eventually (hopefully sooner than later) I will be constructing my own home theater, and I don't want to spend money on something now that is not going to do me any good later.

Decisions, decisions. I'm still reading up on the Marantz pre/pro, and I'm loving every second.

My bad.

I would still maintain that if you are discussing possible seperates in the near future that I would hold off on the 3808.

[Josh]

I will also admit that it may be the idea of separates that I am falling in love with, rather than the actual performance they will give me. To me, it just makes sense. As soon as I heard Denon was coming out with a transport, I thought it was genius. I'm sort of raking that mentality across my entire set-up plan. It just makes sense:

Blu-ray Transport: Takes digital from disc and sends to pre/pro
Pre/Pro: Converts digital signal to analog and sends to amp
Amp: Takes analog and, well, amplifies it

Every piece is doing one (main) function, and hopefully doing it really well. And yes, I'm also one of those people who want everything to match. Plus, wouldn't having both the pre/pro and amp from the same company ensure that the same current. I hear that if the two pieces differ in current, you can get interference.

I don't know... I'm thinking I should return the 2308 for a power conditioner and wait to make this decion.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Josh

I Plus, wouldn't having both the pre/pro and amp from the same company ensure that the same current. I hear that if the two pieces differ in current, you can get interference.

Not sure what you're referring to here, Josh. By design, the amp will draw a whole lot more current than the pre/pro. What type of interference? Folks have been mating brand x pre with brand y amps for many years and with great success e.g. Seth's setup, which uses the Denon pre/pro with a Sunfire amp.

[musicman1999]

If you are going to buy a pre-pro and amp then i would not bother with a 3808, just save the money for your pre and amp.


bill

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by Josh

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I own a separate amp right.

I have a Denon 887 and that's it. It does what it needs to do, and I'm happy. I know that eventually (hopefully sooner than later) I will be constructing my own home theater, and I don't want to spend money on something now that is not going to do me any good later.

Decisions, decisions. I'm still reading up on the Marantz pre/pro, and I'm loving every second.

That receiver has pre-outs. If you are going the separates path, keep the 887 and get a good amplifier next. You can keep using the 887 and feed the pre-outs to the amplifier. Then when your ready get a pre/pro.

[ryoohki]

Separates are the best.. but once you go separate prepare to pay for the rest you're life...

Most Separates CE update their component each 2-5 years. Right now we are in Transition.. and the only Pro available is the DTS 9.8 that accept DTS HD MA, TrueHD. The new marantz PROcessor witch is 2499$MSRP

An AMP is good for pretty much all it's life time.. can be 20 years or more. The only part that change are the PRE witch are between 1600 and well Endless... think of a price

At those price be sure that they can be firmware updated. Those machine are now more and more a computer than ever and FW update for AV is the biggest advantage vs cheaper ones that don't imho..

[Woody]

Originally Posted by ryoohki

Separates are the best.. but once you go separate prepare to pay for the rest you're life...

Most Separates CE update their component each 2-5 years. Right now we are in Transition.. and the only Pro available is the DTS 9.8 that accept DTS HD MA, TrueHD. The new marantz PROcessor witch is 2499$MSRP

An AMP is good for pretty much all it's life time.. can be 20 years or more. The only part that change are the PRE witch are between 1600 and well Endless... think of a price

At those price be sure that they can be firmware updated. Those machine are now more and more a computer than ever and FW update for AV is the biggest advantage vs cheaper ones that don't imho..

The new Denon pre is available now also.

[Woody]

Originally Posted by Josh

I will also admit that it may be the idea of separates that I am falling in love with, rather than the actual performance they will give me. To me, it just makes sense. As soon as I heard Denon was coming out with a transport, I thought it was genius. I'm sort of raking that mentality across my entire set-up plan. It just makes sense:

Blu-ray Transport: Takes digital from disc and sends to pre/pro
Pre/Pro: Converts digital signal to analog and sends to amp
Amp: Takes analog and, well, amplifies it

Every piece is doing one (main) function, and hopefully doing it really well. And yes, I'm also one of those people who want everything to match. Plus, wouldn't having both the pre/pro and amp from the same company ensure that the same current. I hear that if the two pieces differ in current, you can get interference.
I don't know... I'm thinking I should return the 2308 for a power conditioner and wait to make this decion.

There is absolutely no issues mixing/matching pre-amps and amplifiers. As an above poster said, this is often the norm.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Josh

Every piece is doing one (main) function, and hopefully doing it really well. And yes, I'm also one of those people who want everything to match. Plus, wouldn't having both the pre/pro and amp from the same company ensure that the same current. I hear that if the two pieces differ in current, you can get interference.

I don't know... I'm thinking I should return the 2308 for a power conditioner and wait to make this decion.

Aesthetically it's up to you, but there's no reason not to mix pre/pro and amplifiers if that gives you the best results. For example, in my stereo set up I use an Audio Research SP9 Mk 2 with a pair of PrimaLuna ProLogue 7 monoblocs. The sound is wonderful!

Exchanging the 2308 for a power conditioner would probably be a a good idea. Research I've done suggests Furman is a brand to be trusted. I'll be getting one of their Elite 15 PFi conditioners next week (alas, their Reference is out of my current price range). I was going to go for the Monster HTS 3600 MK 2, but info I gleaned from this forum convinced me to change my mind.

[Josh]

Maybe current was the wrong word. Was it voltage? I don't know. Something to do with the amount of electricity running through the two componenets being different on some level. I'm way too removed from science class when we learned about the voltage, resistance, and current relationship.

I like the Marantz because not only does it decode everything, it also is upgradable via the Internet if necessary. Plus, its damn sexy.

I'm looking at getting Panamax power conditioner since Magnolia now carries that brand.