Will there be 4K discs?

[Trader342]

Is 4K 4000P so almost 3-4 times better resolution than blu-ray 1080p or is it referring to resolution so only 2 times better than blu-ray's approximate 2K pixel resolution?

I know it is early but I might hold onto DVD for another few years if 4K is right around the corner and it's that much better -- pretty much reference quality. However it might be jumping the gun as Blu-Ray is the top technology for at least 5 years before people are even talking about 4K being around the corner. But we're hearing that they're already remastering Godfather + the classic Warner films in 4K, it's like these companies can already do it but are just milking the market as much as they can.

I will probably stick with Blu-Ray since I'm already in, and since it's the best available, but I am already thinking about 4K

How big can a blu-ray project by the way? Before it loses quality? Let's say I am sitting 8 feet away, could I project 120" and have great image? Or is it more like 100" is the max? Thanks for your help, nice forum!

[iNCREDiPiNOY]

Go ahead. Keep on dreaming...

[DetroitSportsFan]

Buy Blu-Ray in good faith and enjoy.

4K is a long time away.

[Trader342]

I think there most definitely will be 4K discs but not in the near future, it doesn't make sense why there wouldn't, since TVs and projectors will get better and better, people will want their media to keep up with that

[onceachilde]

there will 100% be 4k disks.

red is releasing a player capable of 4k playback on dual layer DVDs by early 2009. http://www.red.com/nab/redray

of course you would need a display capable of 4k playback and content to go with it. thats where you will run into just a few issues . . .

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Trader342

Is 4K 4000P so almost 3-4 times better resolution than blu-ray 1080p or is it referring to resolution so only 2 times better than blu-ray's approximate 2K pixel resolution?

"4K" refers back to the original Kodak Cineon scanner which should scan about 4096 pixels ("4K") across about aproximately the sprocket to sprocket width of a 35mm. (Which is similar but not the same as scanning film at 4000 dpi/spi (dot/samples per inch) (4000 dpi is 157.5 pixels per mm))

The Cineon 4K used a 6µm pitch that's about 166.66 pixels per mm. 4096/166.66 = 24.6 mm x 3112/166.66 = 18.67 mm, or 3112 x 4096, more than enough to cover the Silent Film (1.33) Projector Aperture.
Be aware that different smaller 35mm film formats/wider aspect ratios would give you smaller pixel counts, and that scanner pitch might vary between models (for example 164.33 p/mm) giving slightly different pixel counts. But for an example, scanning a Super 35 frame of 1.85 aspect ratio where 6µm covers the 12.97 mm x 24 mm 1.85 area marked on a groundglass, you end with 2160 x 4000 pixels.

That, at 2K would give 1080 x 2000

So 2K equivalent to consumer 1080p and 4K = 2x the linear magnification, or 4X the area, for many of the current widescreen formats

Originally Posted by Trader342

How big can a blu-ray project by the way? Before it loses quality? Let's say I am sitting 8 feet away, could I project 120" and have great image? Or is it more like 100" is the max? Thanks for your help, nice forum!

That depends on the transfer and your display but I personally think the best ones can go up to about a 125" CIH 2.40 Scope screen at 8 feet if your display had 100% MTF ("sharpness"). Remember a 834 x 2000 2K DI scan is the same 834 x 2000 on a Cinema screen.

If you want 70mm razor sharpness, not that big. For that 4K

[stockstar1138]

4k isn't coming out anytime soon. 4k is aprrox. 2000x4000 = 8 million pixels. Blu-ray is aprrox 2000x1000 = 2 million pixels, meaning 4k is about 400% greater resolution than blu-ray.

[emm7th]

Super Hi-Vision is the next big thing; it has 16 times the resolution of HD - 7,680×4,320 (but it won't come anytime soon)... I hope there won't be a 4K disc because it will just be a transitional format...

[tvted]

Outside of the bandwidth and storage requirements of such a format it is interesting to note that rumour has it that Sony will be showing a consumer level 4K Front Projector at the upcoming CEDIA. So it is conceivable that the CE's are at least contemplating another iteration of format in my increasingly shorter time as a sentient being.

The scaler alone will be a marvel to behold. The optics will probably be the price of a small car.

ted

[supersix4]

Originally Posted by onceachilde

there will 100% be 4k disks.

red is releasing a player capable of 4k playback on dual layer DVDs by early 2009. http://www.red.com/nab/redray

of course you would need a display capable of 4k playback and content to go with it. thats where you will run into just a few issues . . .

only a select few can afford the 100,000+ 4k projectors this wouldnt become standard well into the future

Originally Posted by tvted

Outside of the bandwidth and storage requirements of such a format it is interesting to note that rumour has it that Sony will be showing a consumer level 4K Front Projector at the upcoming CEDIA. So it is conceivable that the CE's are at least contemplating another iteration of format in my increasingly shorter time as a sentient being.

The scaler alone will be a marvel to behold. The optics will probably be the price of a small car.

ted

actually they do its like 130 I think to 180k for the whole setup

[tvted]

Originally Posted by supersix4

only a select few can afford the 100,000+ 4k projectors this wouldnt become standard well into the future
......
actually they do its like 130 I think to 180k for the whole setup

Currently there are no consumer level units available. I would think with Sony making such a move then JVC would not be far behind.

You are speaking of Digital Cinema are you not? If yes, then it is too early to speculate on the cost. Current 3 chip DLPs for home can run to $50K, yet they sell. The Qualia 004 did reasonably well at $30K and a replacement is due.

As pure spec how about a BD player with two decks - with correct buffering, since they are digital streams it should be to difficult to synch these two players. Insert two disks that represent the seperate datastreams needed for 3D fed to A/B pixel pairs - 3D in 1080P.

ted

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by emm7th

Super Hi-Vision is the next big thing; it has 16 times the resolution of HD - 7,680×4,320 (but it won't come anytime soon)... I hope there won't be a 4K disc because it will just be a transitional format...

the problem with SHV is that the majority of movies filmed won't show any improvment from a 4k to a SHV transfer as the film maxes out at a resolution around 4k. second, is you are going to need a massive screen to see the difference at a normal viewing distance.

[richieb1971]

Unless your projecting onto the moon I dont think that many pixels is necessary. It would be a hard sell to the public. If something is going to be more expensive, 9 out of 10 people want to see a benefit to them. At the moment, BD 1080p is struggling to justify the price of technology for the benefits.

[saprano]

There wil be 4k BD's when sony makes there 4k tv availible......if ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1I1f...eature=related

[supersix4]

Originally Posted by tvted

Currently there are no consumer level units available. I would think with Sony making such a move then JVC would not be far behind.

ted

at our a/v store the owner said he could order us a SRX-S110 or their other models and have a room setup in our house between 130-180(not that wed do it) but it is out there for people who MUST own it

[hanser]

you are going into diminishing return territory here. Blu-ray already has a PQ that is equal or better than an average cinema projection due to the quality of the copy normally used. So you can recreate the cinema experience at home which was not possible with DVD. That will be for most people the deciding point.

I am projecting at a screen with 2.55 m width (around 8.5 feet width; Panasonic AE2000). With good BDs I can watch with a distance of again 8 to 9 feet without noting any artefacts or pixelation.

There is still improvement potential in the mastering of BDs and, more important, in projection technology. In a few years you will still have BDs with 2K, but hopefully using every pixel of it (which seems to be still a rare case now; many movies seem to result only in a resolution of below the available 1080 x 1920 pixels; similar as most DVDs do not use the full resolution available). Combined with 4K projectors with higher light output and higher contrast ratio the PQ will improve further over the next years, just using BD.

Of course, 10 or 20 years from now your living room may have one wall consisting entirely of some kind of extreme high resolution screen, for which higher resolution media than BD may be useful. But I doubt those movies will come on discs, rather I think of flash memory. Pure speculation of course.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by hanser

you are going into diminishing return territory here. Blu-ray already has a PQ that is equal or better than an average cinema projection due to the quality of the copy normally used. So you can recreate the cinema experience at home which was not possible with DVD. That will be for most people the deciding point.

I am projecting at a screen with 2.55 m width (around 8.5 feet width; Panasonic AE2000). With good BDs I can watch with a distance of again 8 to 9 feet without noting any artefacts or pixelation.

There is still improvement potential in the mastering of BDs and, more important, in projection technology. In a few years you will still have BDs with 2K, but hopefully using every pixel of it (which seems to be still a rare case now; many movies seem to result only in a resolution of below the available 1080 x 1920 pixels; similar as most DVDs do not use the full resolution available). Combined with 4K projectors with higher light output and higher contrast ratio the PQ will improve further over the next years, just using BD.

Of course, 10 or 20 years from now your living room may have one wall consisting entirely of some kind of extreme high resolution screen, for which higher resolution media than BD may be useful. But I doubt those movies will come on discs, rather I think of flash memory. Pure speculation of course.

By the way a 8.5' wide screen is a 110" (diagonal) CIH 2.40 Scope screen or a 127" (diagonal) 1.78 screen, which viewed at 8 feet is in the ballpark figure I mentioned above

[space2001]

you wont see the difference between 4k and 2k even though its double the res you will notice more grain and noise.

where I notice the difference is in the colorspace.

I work in compositing on movies. I have worked on 1080p 2k 4k and imax stuff.

[Josh]

4K will happen, but not for the home. Most studios are mastering at 4K these days, meaning that they would essentially be selling the public their masters. That isn't going to happen.

[maximiza]

4K maybe will help keep the movie theaters in business if needed.