A plea to the industry: need a solution to CIH subtitle problem

[syncguy]

Subtitle positioning on CIH (continuous image height) displays is becoming a burning issue. The industry hasn't given a solution for this major problem. Hence this post. (I have posted this in another forum as well.)

Subtitles on black bars is a go/no-go situation for CIH displays. Basically subtitles cannot be read on a CIH display if the subtitles are on the bars. The blu-ray specification has the capability to move the subtitles but they did not make it mandatory - so we don't get it. It is a stuff up.

Sub titles should be moveable so that people can place it on black bars or on the movie. It should be fully user controllable to a certain extent so that it could be placed on the black bars or on the picture. Not anything fancy such as multicoloured font-selectable subtitles. A simple nudge/up down function is required. IMO, this is a stumbling block for the technology evolution as well.

There are two methods to move subtitles. The first one is to use BD software and encode the functionality on to the disk. In this case subtitles will be stored as text rather than an image. Usually this is not done and cannot be expected from foreign studios (after all it is not mandatory! – thanks to the specs).

The second method is to reposition the subtitle raster-image by the player firmware. In this case, the subtitles are stored as a series of raster images. Therefore, the player has to recompose these images (on the fly) to adjust the subtitle position. I don't think this is a big deal since the s/w players like TheaterTek and cheap Samsung ezyzoom players could do this for DVDs.

It is ridicules to place half of the titles on the picture and the other half on the black bars. The titles should be moveable based on the user preference.

Another possible solution is to encode two subtitle streams on to the disk: one on the picture and the other on the bars. This can be easily achieved during the authoring phase. It is just a matter of clicking a button. I really don't understand why people are so short sighted.

CIH may not be the mainstream today. But it could be the mainstream tomorrow. Both front and rear projectors could accommodate optical stretch if there is a demand for that. Also, plasma and LCD displays can be made to accommodate the wide scope aspect.

4x3 is history. Future is 1.78:1 and 2.35:1. I see this as a technology evolution path towards larger scope TV sets. So, no more black bars for the scope movies. The consumer would have a choice whether to choose a scope screen or a 16x9 screen based on the personal preference. The disk authors and studios are irresponsible by hard coding subtitles in a particular position on the screen. It can be easily made moveable using one of the three methods given in this post.

Sony could take the leadership and easily develop a firmware upgrade for the PS3 to move the subtitle raster image (just nudge up/down) so that other manufactures could follow. Looks like that they are just ignoring this issue.

This is a burning problem for myself and many others. This in fact a go/no-go feature rather than a good-to-have function for CIH displays. Currently there are discussions on almost all major forums on this issue.

Perhaps there is a possibility to gather momentum and request manufactures and studios to provide a viable solution for this big issue.

[HDJK]

Excellent post! I sure hope the studios are listening (ah, reading).

[WickyWoo]

Subtitles in an XML file are at the whim of the player in terms of quality of repropduction. That's often why it's not done

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Subtitles in an XML file are at the whim of the player in terms of quality of repropduction. That's often why it's not done

I've heard that excuse from the studios before, and, personally, I don't completely buy it. The studios have no problem releasing discs so loaded with BD-J code that some players won't even play the disc when its released, but they care enough about the player manufacturers to not want to make them create better looking XML-based subtitles? It really doesn't fit with their other practices.

Moreover, if that really was their main concern, they could easily provide options for both kinds of subtitles. I think the bigger issue is they don't want to devote (the relatively trivial) manhours for a feature they don't see many people making use of. If they start to see enough people asking for this feature, it could easily be implemented to upcoming releases.

[Digital Filmmaker]

Personally, I don't believe that subtitles should ever break the frame. They were within the frame in the theater, they should be in the frame on the Blu-ray Disc.

Letters From Iwo Jima was a serious offender with this, and it is my one major criticism with this title. I also have a constant image height with my projection system, and half of the subtitles were unreadable because they fell out of the bottom frame line.

This is a very "video" way of thinking, and does not work for a film-like presentation. The black bars should be empty voids and not contain any image or text information at all during the normal viewing of a film in HD.

[Joe Cain]

I was SO excited about last year's Jean De Florette/Manon des Sources DVD release...then I got my hands on it. Presented in non-anamorphic 2.35:1 with the subtitles below frame---the only way to get all the text onscreen is to watch in porthole-mode. Drag.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

I've heard that excuse from the studios before, and, personally, I don't completely buy it. The studios have no problem releasing discs so loaded with BD-J code that some players won't even play the disc when its released, but they care enough about the player manufacturers to not want to make them create better looking XML-based subtitles? It really doesn't fit with their other practices.

There is a critical difference between issues about the main feature, and all the other pseudo-value crap that people insist on worrying about.

A studio can caveat that not all extras will be available on your player. But, they are kinda screwed if the main feature can't be properly presented on every player. That includes subtitles for foreign films.

I'm all for the efforts to improve the CIH situation. But, I'm left with a feeling of: Where were all of you three years ago?!

Back then several of us were pushing for CIH solutions (including CIH encoding) and were being shouted down as wasting effort on something that would never be relevant.

This inability or unwillingness to look beyond the near future gets us into trouble as a species again and again.

Gary

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

I'm all for the efforts to improve the CIH situation. But, I'm left with a feeling of: Where were all of you three years ago?!

Back then several of us were pushing for CIH solutions (including CIH encoding) and were being shouted down as wasting effort on something that would never be relevant.

Gary

I agree with you completely. But movable (XML-based) subtitles are in the spec, and every player should be able to play them.

BTW, three years ago I was pushing for this, and we got movable subtitle capability in the Blu-ray spec. I really didn't think we'd then need to fight this battle again to get studios to actually use it.

[Clark Kent]

I think the real problem is that the CIH userbase is just so small. How many CIH setups exist in home theaters across America? If it topped a few thousand I'd be shocked. The studios might actually listen and do something if they thought this affected lots of consumers.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

I'm all for the efforts to improve the CIH situation. But, I'm left with a feeling of: Where were all of you three years ago?!

Back then several of us were pushing for CIH solutions (including CIH encoding) and were being shouted down as wasting effort on something that would never be relevant.

This inability or unwillingness to look beyond the near future gets us into trouble as a species again and again.

Gary

Thanks for all replies.

There is more noise in the CIH front perhaps because more people are now using CIH. It is a trend and people will use it if they can make the commitment (space, budget etc.).

Also, this is a new business opportunity and the manufacturers could think about the new generation scope TV sets. So, many people hate the black bars, my feeling is there will be an overwhelming demand for the scope TV sets. People will keep even two sets, one for the movies and one for the HDTV. It is time for the industry to do some research. Focus groups etc.

Fixing up the subtitle problem will be a good starting point. I sincerely hope that Sony will take the leadership and give us a firmware solution for the PS3 (to reposition the subtitle raster image – simple nudge up/down) so that other manufacturers could follow. I really cannot expect foreign studios to use the XML solution, at least in the near future, as it is optional on the specs.

A quick solution like above will benefit many people not only the CIH displays. There are millions of zoomers out there and they cannot watch a movie in the way that they want to watch if the subtitles are on the black bars. (Whether zooming is right or wrong, this is used by millions and it is a fact of life – so I think there is an opportunity to feed them with a NG scope TV set ).

[syncguy]

It is disappointing that the industry has given the blu-ray solution for HD without clearly considering basic but extremely useful functions like repositioning subtitles.

The XML based blu-ray subtitle reposition function does not work satisfactorily due to compatibility issues with individual players. After all it is not a mandatory feature in the specs. Hence studios and disk authors do not use this feature. The simplest and most effective method, i.e. raster image nudge up/down has not been considered or implemented. The most basic nudge up/down is vital for CIH displays as well as many zoomers for zooming out black bars and watch a movie in a way that they want to watch it. (Whether the zooming is right or wrong it is used by many people and it is their choice.)

The situation is hopeless. The industry is forcing people to seek assistance from unorthodox solutions such as AnyDVD.

[Deimos]

Subtitles should be always over the movie area. Never in the black bars, or worse: half of each. Good positioned subtitles makes them easy to follow and avoids mising anything while you are reading, having a CIH or not.

It seems difficult to make all the companies do it right, so the only way to go is make possible to move subtitles on the player. It can't be hard.

Blu-ray has it's target on people who want's a theatre at home. Bad positioned subtitles makes CIH owners think twice before buying certain movie.

P.S. Sorry about my english.

[jomari]

im kinda new into this CIH subtitle challenges,

but shouldnt there be some sort of standard established in regards to subtitles?

i do hope so. there are a number of viewers im assuming that have been clamoring for this.

[Deimos]

Should be a "standard", that's for sure.

Color is another thing is misunderstood. Just check "Godfather" subtitles, to realise that a dark colour is less distracting than the usual flashy white, that also ruins the cinematography work in the darkest scenes.

[Eternal_Sunshine]

This problem was discussed in Penton's insider thread in the fall:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...64#post1149664

Penton said to inform Paidgeek (from Sony Pictures) about our concerns, but sadly nothing changed yet.

Interestingly, some studios get it. Disney, Fox, Universal and Paramount usually encode subtitles correctly (inside the picture area), Sony and Warner usually have one line of the subs in the lower black bar.

Consequently, I don't import Sony/Warner scope titles anymore.

[Deimos]

Good try, Eternal_Sunshine.

[Eternal_Sunshine]

Thanks!

I gave it another shot:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...05#post1505005