HDR heatmaps and torch mode UHDs

[tama]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Best thing to do is play around with it all some more. Set it to Basic (500 nits), turn the DTM off, and see what the Optimiser does to those same discs you were trying before. But it sounds like you much prefer what the DTM is doing anyway, isn't it tied to the contrast enhancer setting on the 2018 LG or am I thinking of the previous year's models? If so then naturally it's doing what contrast enhancers do, thicken up the blacks and goose the highlights a bit more, imagery which we're conditioned to love by our silly brains.

I just posted I liked the Optimizer set at Basic 500 nits and my LG OLEDs Active HDR activated in the UB820 thread

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

HDR tone mapping: causing untold confusion since 2016

Don't worry dude lol. I'm fine. I was just checking a couple of things, and it seems I've confused my confusion. As it's been a while since I've actively checked what I was doing with HDR 10 again.

Right. The DTM on the C8 only changes the contrast according to the brightness of the image. So aye, not a tone mapper. A contrast mapper, that's not always 100% perfect, but it's essential. So basically the optimizer tone maps, the DTM compensation for short comings with the C8. Or something to that effect.

[Scottishguy]

And now I've refreshed ones memory of the purgatory that is HDR 10. I feel I'm now more in a position to "illuminate" what exactly is the processing issues with LGs 2018 OLEDS and static HDR metadata.

The problem is simply it doesn't have any internal HDR 10 mapping. Why? Because they probably thought DV and dynamic metadata would become the main form of HDR. Which it has...on streaming.

So they threw everything at OLEDS strengths which is colour and contrast, and that's why DV performance is so good on it. But when you got no choice but HDR 10 town, you are met with a wall of no internal tone mapping, and poorly integrated features.

[captainsolo]

I truly value this thread and others like it for giving unbiased real life, real world back and forth discussions about how this stuff works in the nitty gritty usage and all the problems that arise. I still to this day have no idea which TV let alone what brand to save up/pine away for.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by captainsolo

I truly value this thread and others like it for giving unbiased real life, real world back and forth discussions about how this stuff works in the nitty gritty usage and all the problems that arise. I still to this day have no idea which TV let alone what brand to save up/pine away for.

We will all look back on these primitive times of HDR eventually, and laugh.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

And now I've refreshed ones memory of the purgatory that is HDR 10. I feel I'm now more in a position to "illuminate" what exactly is the processing issues with LGs 2018 OLEDS and static HDR metadata.

The problem is simply it doesn't have any internal HDR 10 mapping. Why? Because they probably thought DV and dynamic metadata would become the main form of HDR. Which it has...on streaming.

So they threw everything at OLEDS strengths which is colour and contrast, and that's why DV performance is so good on it. But when you got no choice but HDR 10 town, you are met with a wall of no internal tone mapping, and poorly integrated features.

This is just not true though, to display any HDR ALL oled screens employ tone mapping, LG is no different. In general all OLEDs map the curve very closely up to 1000nits, above that each company employs differing methods. Sony for example hard clip, sacrificing hilight detail for overall image brightness(no surprise there!), LG like Panasonic try to preserve hilight detail and try to gradually track the curve, but Panny does it better.
Your invented suppositions here about LG focusing on Dv so they have no tone mapping left for HDR10 are, respectfully, guff.

Nor is Dynamic tone mapping "essential" for HDR content on post2016 LG OLEDs, while it does help to resolve specular detail on stuff mastered at 4000nits and above, I personally never use it because it arbitrarily alters the picture with little regard of the actual intended look of said content.
I have no issue with those who use it, or who prefer the brighter look (and that often extends to unintended lifting of black level), but it is certainly not "essential", and if you care about the intended look of content it has all but been made redundant by having a panasonic player with a HDR optimiser, as pannys optimiser only affects the very brightest part of the image, ie the parts that need it.

If your C8 is putting out an image in hdr10 that, refinments or compression aside, is wildly different than DV then I would question your settings.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Best thing to do is play around with it all some more. Set it to Basic (500 nits), turn the DTM off, and see what the Optimiser does to those same discs you were trying before. But it sounds like you much prefer what the DTM is doing anyway, isn't it tied to the contrast enhancer setting on the 2018 LG or am I thinking of the previous year's models? If so then naturally it's doing what contrast enhancers do, thicken up the blacks and goose the highlights a bit more, imagery which we're conditioned to love by our silly brains.

Its not tied to the contrast enhancer on 2018 models no, nor was it really ever it was just that with the 2017 models it was under the dymanic contrast sub menu because by the time of launch LG had not set up a seperate menu for it. So dynamic tone mapping was enabled by setting dynamic contrast to low when watching in HDR, which if you follow, wasn't a dynamic contrast low setting at all, but rather an on/off switch for their tone mapping algorithm.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Accuracy is unknowable without an objectively measured calibration to gauge the intended D65 white point.

And even the absolute accuracy of D65 is seemingly up in the air these days. To combat metamerism failure I've seen a few pro calibrators advocating for alternative white points; apparently studio mastering monitors have been calibrated with similar adjustments for some time now.

Apologies for spamming the thread folks!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

And now I've refreshed ones memory of the purgatory that is HDR 10. I feel I'm now more in a position to "illuminate" what exactly is the processing issues with LGs 2018 OLEDS and static HDR metadata.

The problem is simply it doesn't have any internal HDR 10 mapping. Why? Because they probably thought DV and dynamic metadata would become the main form of HDR. Which it has...on streaming.

So they threw everything at OLEDS strengths which is colour and contrast, and that's why DV performance is so good on it. But when you got no choice but HDR 10 town, you are met with a wall of no internal tone mapping, and poorly integrated features.

Do you know what tone mapping actually is? I'm not taking the piss, I'm just aksing a question, because of coursh your TV has internal tone mapping separate from the DTM, it's just not very good - or at least not as good as others like monstermidget have managed to get it via the underlying settings of the TV. You still seem to be thinking along the lines of tone mapping being a dynamic system that's always re-adjusting the image, but that's why we refer to DTM as DTM because it's separate from regular static tone mapping that applies a fixed transform to the image to make it fit (supposedly) on X display.

Originally Posted by monstermidget

And even the absolute accuracy of D65 is seemingly up in the air these days. To combat metamerism failure I've seen a few pro calibrators advocating for alternative white points; apparently studio mastering monitors have been calibrated with similar adjustments for some time now.

Apologies for spamming the thread folks!

Why would white point affect metamerism though? I thought that it was the extremes of the wider colour gamut where metamerism started to become a problem? Or is this in reference to OLED mastering monitors and their Judd Vos adjustments which are based around perceptual matching? I couldn't believe it when during a junket for the Panasonic OLEDs a professional colourist said that he just eyeballed it when matching to the calibrated Sony BVM-X300 that he had in the room!

I think there's always been a certain degree of the mastering being the Wild Wild West, even in SDR there's been an eternal debate about whether the mastering houses use 2.2, 2.4 or BT.1886 gamma. But having something dialled in is better than nothing as you'll still get an accurate image with some content if only on the apparently increasingly rare occasions that it gets mastered to that standard! But I'm still feeling smug as a bug in a rug after seeing those Knives Out comparisons, having previously gone on record to say that the grading of BD and the UHD were all but identical on my TV.

[Scottishguy]

Aye I do. But it was 5 in the morning. More my meaning was it feels like it doesn't have any.

[tama]

Originally Posted by monstermidget

This is just not true though, to display any HDR ALL oled screens employ tone mapping, LG is no different. In general all OLEDs map the curve very closely up to 1000nits, above that each company employs differing methods. Sony for example hard clip, sacrificing hilight detail for overall image brightness(no surprise there!), LG like Panasonic try to preserve hilight detail and try to gradually track the curve, but Panny does it better.
Your invented suppositions here about LG focusing on Dv so they have no tone mapping left for HDR10 are, respectfully, guff.

Nor is Dynamic tone mapping "essential" for HDR content on post2017 LG OLEDs, while it does help to resolve specular detail on stuff mastered at 4000nits and above, I personally never use it because it arbitrarily alters the picture with little regard of the actual intended look of said content.
I have no issue with those who use it, or who prefer the brighter look (and that often extends to unintended lifting of black level), but it is certainly not "essential", and if you care about the intended look of content it has all but been made redundant by having a panasonic player with a HDR optimiser, as pannys optimiser only affects the very brightest part of the image, ie the parts that need it.

If your C8 is putting out an image in hdr10 that, refinments or compression aside, is wildly different than DV then I would question your settings.

So would you say that on at least the 2017 B7 LG OLEDs they likely do need to employ the Active HDR (DTM?) For HDR10 content?

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Why would white point affect metamerism though? I thought that it was the extremes of the wider colour gamut where metamerism started to become a problem? Or is this in reference to OLED mastering monitors and their Judd Vos adjustments which are based around perceptual matching? I couldn't believe it when during a junket for the Panasonic OLEDs a professional colourist said that he just eyeballed it when matching to the calibrated Sony BVM-X300 that he had in the room!

Judd Vos doesnt go far enough to overcome the inaccuracy apparently...

https://www.lightspace.lightillusion...our_match.html

I also think I've seen D-nice over at AVS say that Judd Voss doesn't work very well with the WRGB oleds either; I'm not sure if that has to do with the white sub pixel or what to be honest.

Lightspace themselves downplay the need for it on consumer displays but I've seen others arguing for some sort of mitagation on all modern displays.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by tama

So would you say that on at least the 2017 B7 LG OLEDs they likely do need to employ the Active HDR (DTM?) For HDR10 content?

Well, after refreshing my memory of what I was doing with HDR 10 last night.

Basically my C8 is only tone mapping up to whatever it's peak brightness is, then the optimizer is taking over from 1000 nits and above. Though while it's stated the C8 is a 1000 TV, it's more like around 800. So you are going to get clipping to a degree no matter what.

The DTM is crucial as, without it, the contrast is far to low. Though while it's a good feature, it's not perfect. And you might run into instances of black crush.

Overall, when paired with the U820s optimizer, it's the closest to DV peformance your going to get doing HDR 10 this way.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by tama

So would you say that on at least the 2017 B7 LG OLEDs they likely do need to employ the Active HDR (DTM?) For HDR10 content?

Sorry I should have said post 2016 models, I have a C7 and I don't employ active HDR, for me it alters the picture to much, I find their algorthym in 2017 was too aggressive,(They honed and improved it over the following years but at its core you are still essentially letting a TV manufactors algorithm dictate how the content looks rather than the content itself). On certain above 1000nit content, you will loose a little hilight detail, which is why the panny optimiser is a better option imo to help resolve those details.
But ultimatelyif its your television, its your call. You may well choose personal preference over absolute accuracy, which many folks do.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

The DTM is crucial as, without it, the contrast is far to low. Though while it's a good feature, it's not perfect. And you might run into instances of black crush.

Overall, when paired with the U820s optimizer, it's the closest to DV peformance your going to get doing HDR 10 this way.

Again this is not true and is simply misinformation, are you actually taking about active HDR Setting here, or are you talking about dynamic contrast, which is exactly that and has nothing to do with HDR tone mapping.
What DV setting are you using out of interest, I don't see how it could so different and more "contrasty" than standard HDR, unless its not in the most accurate mode.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by monstermidget

Again this is not true and is simply misinformation, are you actually taking about active HDR Setting here, or are you talking about dynamic contrast, which is exactly that and has nothing to do with HDR tone mapping.
What DV setting are you using out of interest, I don't see how it could so different and more "contrasty" than standard HDR, unless its not in the most accurate mode.

DV is in Cinema preset (not home). DTM is dynamic tone mapping.

And I use technicolor expert for HDR 10.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

DV is in Cinema preset (not home). DTM is dynamic tone mapping.

And I use technicolor expert for HDR 10.

Then with dynamic tone mapping disabled there really should be no wild disparity between the two, especially in regards to contrast, unless you have altered these presets in some negative way.

I'm a fan of dolby vision and when implimented correctly it offers the best HDR experience on an OLED, and perhaps all screen tech, but LGs are no slouch with Regular HDR (sans DTM) and once set up correctly then we are mostly talking about refinements and small differences.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Pyoko

Since no one else mentioned it yet, I'll do now... I checked this with my disc yesterday and am getting the exact same weird artefacts with this frame. Which is a non-issue in motion and one frame only mind you. The BD might have hints of it as well, so it might be source related (the "digital source" I mean).

Don't think I would've upgraded Strangelove btw.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by monstermidget

Then with dynamic tone mapping disabled there really should be no wild disparity between the two, especially in regards to contrast, unless you have altered these presets in some negative way.

I'm a fan of dolby vision and when implimented correctly it offers the best HDR experience on an OLED, and perhaps all screen tech, but LGs are no slouch with Regular HDR (sans DTM) and once set up correctly then we are mostly talking about refinements and small differences.

Nope I don't touch anything in HDR 10. I'm not aware of any feature in the settings that is specifically a tone mapper. So I assume it's automatic.

[monstermidget]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

Nope I don't touch anything in HDR 10. I'm not aware of any feature in the settings that is specifically a tone mapper. So I assume it's automatic.

Any adjustment to the settings oled light, brightness, contrast etc will alter the tone mapping. And no adjustments to DV cinema either? Really don't know why you should be seeing such differences between the two then; what content in particular have you directly compared on your setup which has really looked different in DV than HDR.